To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

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I did NOT write that as you quoted. Go look at the original again, and remember what I was replying to.

I wrote, “First of all that makes no sense except in the context of a dictator, and I think the Pope would take issue with that comparison.” If anything, I defended the Pope, who I happen to like and respect.

What you did just there was quote me out of context in a way that made me look hateful. I don’t appreciate that.
I did cut and paste from your post which I reviewed more than once, and I apologize if I misunderstood what you meant. I did see your point about the Pope rejecting dictatorship at that time. There was no attempt to make you look bad by truncating your post.

That said, it’s still not completely clear to me whether you think being subject to the Roman Pontiff is good or bad. So, why not take talk of “dictators” out of the discussion and simply address that for me.

Thanks.
 
You have to add two more to that list; again, lifted from earlier convo:

Premise: All are subject to the Roman Pontiff whether they consciously choose to be or not.
Premise: All baptized persons are technically Catholic, regardless of the denomination in which they currently reside.
Correct! But the second one does have limitations and not all together true
 
What exactly do you think I am twisting? Feel free to report me. I have reached the conclusion that it’s impossible to have a discussion on any religious topic without offending someone.
It’s certainly not impossible. There are a number of prolific, charitable non-Catholic posters here who have done a marvelous job at offering a contrary viewpoint without ever being offensive.

I suggest you look at the posting styles of Christians such as JonNC, benjohnson, and atheists such as Thinking Sapien, Portofino, and Jews such as meltzerboy.

If they can do it, certainly you can. Just change your style a bit and model it after the above posters.
 
Premise: Jesus was a person
Jesus is God - the second person of the Trinity. He has two natures - a human nature and a divine nature. He is fully God and fully man.
Premise: Jesus is in heaven
Agreed.
Premise: Jesus was not a christian
Agreed. Because Jesus is the Christ. “Christian” is the designation of one who follows Christ. Obama is not an Obama supporter…he IS Obama.
Premise: Jesus was not a catholic
Agreed. Because “Catholic” is the designation that Christians gave to their Church and to themselves as members of that Church.
Premise: Jesus was not a follower of Jesus
Agreed. (Again)
The premises are not mine. Three of them are direct quotes from what you posted. The conclusion is inevitable. Remove any of the premises or add loopholes to them and I’ll revise the conclusion.
You did not give a conclusion…just premises.
Just a reminder, the original question was: To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic
Agreed.
 
(Invincible ignorance means non-Christians have a good chance)
You have inserted a quantifier here where none exists.

There is nothing in Church teaching which explicates how much of a chance anyone with invincible ignorance may have to enter heaven.

Suffice it to say that anyone with invincible ignorance has a chance. *Good *chance? Only God knows.
 
You have to add two more to that list; again, lifted from earlier convo:

Premise: All are subject to the Roman Pontiff whether they consciously choose to be or not.
Premise: All baptized persons are technically Catholic, regardless of the denomination in which they currently reside.
Good! I think you have it.

All who will ultimately reside in heaven for eternity are subject to the Roman Pontiff because Jesus, who inherited the throne of his father, David, has re-established the office of Royal Steward which we now call the papacy.
 
You are confusing a lot of things right now.

Back in the days of the OT, before Christ came, people weren’t saved yet. They went to the “Bosom of Abraham” which was a special place in hell where those who died in God’s favor were protected from the pit of the damned. However, the Jewish Church was the true Church of God. Then when Christ came, he fulfilled the Old Covenant rendering it’s laws moot, meaning that anyone who followed Christ were freed from the Old Laws. Christ established new Laws and established a new Church that became the new one true Church of God (the Church of Christ), which is the Catholic Church. After Christ’s death, he freed the souls in “Abraham’s Bosom” who were resurrected with him and walked among the people. Then Christ took them to heaven with him. They were saved by Christ, like all those who are saved are.

Now, for those left alive after Christ’s resurrection, it was through the Church that people are led to Christ to be saved. So, salvation only comes through Christ’s Church, whose visible body is that of the Catholic Church. But there are those who are not part of the visible Church, but still a part of the invisible Body of Christ (the invisible Church). The invisible Church consists of those who sincerely try to follow God and Christ by way of his visible Church, but may also consist of those who sincerely try to follow God and Christ, but are outside the visible Church.

Now, this means that it is possible to be saved while outside the visible Catholic Church, yes. However, the farther from the visible body of the Catholic Church you get, the less likely it is. So, possible, yes, but not as likely. So, to become a part of the Catholic Church and follow Her teachings is to be more assured of your salvation.

The analogy I like to use is people on top of a mountain that are to trek down the side of the mountain where the goal is to get down as safely as possible. There is an experienced guide at the top of the mountain. If you do all that he says, you will make it down without harm. If you only half listen to what he says, while you may make it down alive, it would not have been a pleasant journey as you would likely sustain some injuries on the way down. If you are following the group down, but not listening to the guide, there is an even less likely chance that you will make it down without injury, and you could possibly misstep and not make it down alive. And if you completely ignore the guide and go off on your own, making your own path down the mountain side, it is least likely that you’ll survive the trip. You may even decide the best way to get down is to just jump off the side of the mountain. Even though there is a slim chance you could make it down alive, it wouldn’t be without injury, and it wouldn’t be something that I would place my bets on. I’d rather stick with the experienced guide and do my best to follow what he says, so that I am most assured that I’ll make it down alive. I’ll likely fail to listen sometimes, and maybe scratch my knees, but as long as I keep at it and do my best, I’ll make it down.
:clapping:
 
First of all that makes no sense except in the context of a dictator, and I think the Pope would take issue with that comparison. Second of all, if that was true, then there is absolutely no point in formal conversion, is there?
Your second point is a non-sequitur.

The point of being a Christian is to follow Truth.

And there is no other Church that has the fullness of Truth than the Catholic Church.
 
Good! I think you have it.

All who will ultimately reside in heaven for eternity are subject to the Roman Pontiff because Jesus, who inherited the throne of his father, David, has re-established the office of Royal Steward which we now call the papacy.
Is there no right of conscience then? If all people are subject to the Pontiff in all cases, where does personal autonomy and Christian freedom reside?
 
Is there no right of conscience then? If all people are subject to the Pontiff in all cases, where does personal autonomy and Christian freedom reside?
How does being subject to the Pope restrict your right of conscience or personal autonomy?
 
Case closed.
Not given the part you quoted, to the exclusion of the rest of what I wrote. One must still be a part of the invisible Church. And that membership is something that only God alone can judge.

And like I said, possible doesn’t mean likely.
 
Is there no right of conscience then? If all people are subject to the Pontiff in all cases, where does personal autonomy and Christian freedom reside?
:confused: Christian freedom? What do you mean here?
 
You are confusing a lot of things right now.
… bunch of stuff …
I fully agree with that. If the question was:

“All people born after 500 AD who are in heaven were Catholics.”

Then sure. Assertions about OT characters, Jesus and what happened in the first few centuries or so would be irrelevant.

But it sure seem like sticking to the question is a report-able offense. And I didn’t even raise the question of angels being Catholic.
 
How does being subject to the Pope restrict your right of conscience or personal autonomy?
A right can be defined this way:

1 : qualities (as adherence to duty or obedience to lawful authority) that together constitute the ideal of moral propriety or merit moral approval* 2 : something to which one has a just claim: as a : the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled ***

If a person is subject to an higher power, then his power to consent is taken away. I call myself Catholic and was confirmed in the year 2000. However, I reserve the right to stop being Catholic. I reserve the right to call on our Father in heaven directly, without appealing to the Church.

That’s my right of conscience in action. That is Christian freedom.
 
You did not give a conclusion…just premises.
The conclusion was in an earlier post. I didn’t repeat it because another poster threatened to report me.

I was sort of enjoying this thread. It’s refreshing to interact with someone willing to give yes or no type answers.
 
A right can be defined this way:

1 : qualities (as adherence to duty or obedience to lawful authority) that together constitute the ideal of moral propriety or merit moral approval* 2 : something to which one has a just claim: as a : the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled ***

If a person is subject to an higher power, then his power to consent is taken away. I call myself Catholic and was confirmed in the year 2000. However, I reserve the right to stop being Catholic. I reserve the right to call on our Father in heaven directly, without appealing to the Church.

That’s my right of conscience in action. That is Christian freedom.
The Pope doesn’t prevent you from doing that and neither does the Chuch. Its sole purpose is to reveal the truth and help save as many souls possible
 
The Pope doesn’t prevent you from doing that and neither does the Chuch. Its sole purpose is to reveal the truth and help save as many souls possible
That’s correct, because I willingly submit. But if I withold consent, then I am no longer subject to him. If otherwise, then my conversion was meaningless, and I didn’t consent in 2000. I merely followed directions.
 
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