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Izdaari
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I’m aware some people say that. I’m not aware that it’s truth.
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MaryT777
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It’s the Catholic Perspective and it is true.
Mary.
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ufamtobie
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Billy_Buescher
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Hi,
Do you know how the Anglican Church came about?
How do you trace the Anglican Church roots back to the Universial Church?
Does Christ know you? and how does He know you? Does Christ abide in you? Do you have life in you and how?
From scripture there is a lot of good that happens to individuals and groups who God does not know, I would think it is extreamly important that God knows us.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
It does look very improtant that a person needs to be know by God, you need to be in the Church Christ built, a branch of the vine so He knows us.
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clem456
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SteveVH
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That’s what I thought.
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ffg
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Not going to quote clem’s last for space, but one would hope the bold is obvious.
There isn’t an earth dwelling human that would know the answer, thus making the question impossible to answer.
I find the most important part is the next couple lines of your quote.
#'s don’t matter, BUT - ‘many’ is a number that should wake people up.
If the truth is few and strong will make it, ‘Thy Will be done on earth’ is a good focus point.
It’s important to understand this world has meaning and is important to God, it is his creation afterall, not just a ship we are all sitting on, waiting for a door to open.
We should concern ourselves with what we can control. Learn Truth, live Truth.
There isn’t an earth dwelling human that would know the answer, thus making the question impossible to answer.
I find the most important part is the next couple lines of your quote.
#'s don’t matter, BUT - ‘many’ is a number that should wake people up.
If the truth is few and strong will make it, ‘Thy Will be done on earth’ is a good focus point.
It’s important to understand this world has meaning and is important to God, it is his creation afterall, not just a ship we are all sitting on, waiting for a door to open.
We should concern ourselves with what we can control. Learn Truth, live Truth.
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TheKingdomOfGod
Guest
I can understand why it might be difficult for an atheist to enter heaven. But things are surely different with a Christian who just happens to belong to a different denomination, aren’t they?
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TheKingdomOfGod
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Again, the differences between the Catholic church and other churches are slim, especially the Church of England and Anglican Communion. As an Anglican I have had access to valid sacraments and made use of them. I am trying to become the person he created me to be and wants me to become.
The assumption that Anglicans aren’t catholic is a falsehood. As I posted previously Anglicans and the Church of England view themselves as both Catholic and Reformed. The Church of England may not be Catholic in the sense it answers to the Holy See, but it is Catholic as it is part of the universal church established by Jesus himself.
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TheKingdomOfGod
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The Church of England is both protestant and Catholic. Of course Jesus wants us to be in his church. I am in his church! The Church of England is part of the One Holy Catholic Church. It was established officially in the year of our Lord 597 and has continued since then bearing the four marks of the Church.
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TheKingdomOfGod
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Christianity came to Britain during Roman times. The Church of England was established by St Augustine in the 6th century. From the moment it was established to the present day it has therefore been a part of the Universal Church of Jesus Christ, going back to the apostolic church.
I know Jesus and he knows me. He knows me through my entrance to his Church, but more importantly through prayer and worship. Christ abides in me like he does all of the Lord’s children. I am known by God, at least as far as I can humanely tell, and I am in the Church Christ built.
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SteveVH
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No one gets to heaven because they can call themselves “Catholic”. The Catholic Church, through the sacraments instituted by Christ himself, provides channels of God’s grace, the normal means of salvation, by which we are saved. These channels of grace are not available outside of the Catholic Church which makes it more difficult (but not impossible) for non-Catholics.
It is living out the faith of the Catholic Church, however, that is important and those that believe they are saved because they can call themselves “Catholic” will have a rude awakening unless they conform their lives to the truth of the Catholic Church. In fact, they have an even greater responsibility.
So, yes, an Atheist is going to have a much more difficult time than a non-Catholic Christian because they have rejected God outright. The non-Catholic Christian has to deal with the fact of attaining salvation outside of the normal means that God provided.
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TheKingdomOfGod
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We seem to be disagreeing essentially over what the definition of Catholic is. I view it as meaning universal. I am part of the Church of England which is part of the One, Holy, Catholic Church. I don’t describe myself as catholic, I am Catholic, I am reformed, I am Anglican, I am Christian.
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ufamtobie
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ThekingdomofGod,
The church of England is both Protestant and Catholic? Are you referring to Roman Catholic?
KingdomofGod, you must not know The definition of “Protestant” here is the definition: a member or follower of any of the Western Christian churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church and follow the principles of the Reformation…
The Church of England can not be both Protestant and Catholic the two don’t go hand in hand. You can’t protest against the Catholic Church and say we are part of it, that is none sense. You are either for the Catholic Church or against it, you are either in the Catholic Church or you are outside the Catholic Church peeking in.
Until you yourself become in Full Union with the Holy See, then and only then, can you call yourself Roman Catholic.
Any church that started even a day after the Church Jesus Christ established over 2000 years ago, is one church to many and not of God but a man made church.
The Catholic Church is One, it is Holy, it is Catholic, It is Apostolic, it is the Rock aka Peter and His Successors on which Jesus Christ built His Church, not in the year “597” by men but by Jesus Christ Himself over 2000 years ago and with no change in His Teachings since.
If St. Peter came down from heaven today, which Church will he enter the one that was built upon him and his successors to spread the word of God or a church that was started by men?
Ufam Tobie
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TheKingdomOfGod
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Not Roman Catholic, just Catholic in the sense it is part of the universal church. Indeed the Church of England is protestant in the sense it follows some principles of the reformation. It is also Catholic because it is part of the One, Holy Catholic church. I don’t call myself a Roman Catholic, I call myself a Christian-if you want more specifics, an Anglican.
I don’t think you quite understand the date 597. The Church, of course, existed long before then and many Churches were dotted across Britain. The Church of England’s establishment in 597 simply brought England officially into the fold of the Catholic church. St. Peter was a man. All churches are nominally started by men. The Church of England bears the four marks of the Church.
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clem456
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I am no expert on this, it’s why I am asking. Didn’t the Church of England explicitly separate itself from the Papacy at the time of King Henry?
Maybe that has changed recently, my apologies if it has.
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onenow1
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Hi,Randy ! I have often thought about divine intervention in this area what say you ?
God bless
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Randy_Carson
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Do you recall where the Believers were first called “Christians”? The early Church was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26).
As early as 107 A.D., those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, the Bishop of Antioch, Ignatius, wrote, “You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])
Notice that Ignatius does not introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century. John, the beloved disciple, may have thought of himself as a member of the Catholic Church!
The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day. As a side note, it appears that the believers in Antioch may have coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church” – terms they used to describe the one body of believers in Christ.
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Randy_Carson
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The Church Jesus Christ founded is a visible communion. This is proven in Matthew 16:17-19, the passage in which Christ promised the gates of hell would never prevail against his Church (meaning that it would always exist). Several factors in the text show he was talking about a visible communion.
First, Jesus made Peter head of this Church (Matt. 16:18), yet Jesus was certainly not making Peter the head of an invisible Church. It is Christ’s own prerogative to be head of the invisible communion of Christians stretching from heaven to earth (Eph. 5:23). Therefore, he must have made Peter the head of a visible, earthly church. (We will not argue here that Jesus made Peter the head; even if one disagrees, the remaining arguments prove our case.)
Second, Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 16:19), which are for use in Church government (compare Isa. 22:22 – the only Old Testament parallel to this verse). But one cannot govern an invisible communion of believers, only a visible one.
Third, Jesus gave Peter the power of binding and loosing (Matt. 16:19), which Matthew 18:17-18 indicates is used in Church discipline. But one cannot exercise Church discipline over an invisible body. Indeed, Matt. 18:17-18 refers it to public excommunication, in which an individual is treated by the church as “a gentile or a tax collector” (that is, as an unbeliever).
**Fourth, Jesus explicitly stated that Peter would exercise the power of binding and loosing on earth. This shows his authority is an earthly one, over an earthly Church. **
Fifth, Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18), meaning that it would never perish. But it would be ridiculous to promise that an invisible Church would not pass out of existence since some of the Church’s members are in heaven and Christ’s heavenly Church cannot pass away by its very nature. Only a visible, earthly communion needs a promise that it will never perish.
There are thus abundant reasons to conclude that the Church Jesus was discussing in Matthew 16:17-19 was a visible communion of believers, and, since only the Catholic Church goes back that far, only it can be the one Christ founded.
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Randy_Carson
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Non-denominational Christians often reject the concept of a structured, hierarchical Church led by bishops, priests and deacons. One of their common objections is that the “church” exists wherever two or three believers are gathered in His name. Is this really how the Bible defines the Church? Let’s take a closer look at the Word of God to see if this is true.
Matthew 18:19-20
19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
From this passage, many Christians conclude that the “church” is composed of small groups of believers that come together from time to time. While it is true that Jesus has promised to be with believers who are gathered in His name, it is obvious from another passage that this is not how Jesus Himself defines the Church.
In fact, just a few verses earlier, Jesus had given a fuller picture of the Church when He said:
Matthew 18:15-17
15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”
If “two or three” believers gathered together really constitutes the “church” (as envisioned by those who reject “organized religion”), then it would not be necessary for us to refer the one who sins against us to “the church”. Doing so would be redundant! To the contrary, it is obvious in this passage that Jesus actually makes a clear distinction between the “two or three others” in verse 16 and “the church” in verse 17.
Clearly, Jesus does not consider that “two or three” constitute the Church that He Himself would build. Neither should we. Beginning with Peter, the rock, and the apostles, Jesus has built the Church just as He promised through their successors—the bishops, priests and deacons of the Catholic Church.
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