To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[ffg]

I think it’s good to assume God is logical when we are taught to use faith and reason through His Church.

Baptism takes away the stain of OS.:extrahappy:

The prayer of absolution in confession eliminates the sin, but does not eliminate the stain. Penance, retribution, suffering eliminate the stain aka, cleanse the soul.

Why / what’s the purpose? To get closer to God. In The three things we can do to eliminate stain, we are doing more than just eliminating something, we are building a very important relationship we broke with sin.

A dead person with stains, OS or otherwise, would need to be cleansed, if Heaven and everything in it is perfect and if after step 2 of the final 4, judgement came out favorable for the person.

Perhaps to think an unbaptised baby suffers death, helps link OS stain and the step of cleanse.

Otherwise, we can take comfort in knowing God’s mercy is great and He is probably logical.

 

[PRmerger]

i will close with this.

i think it is both presumptuous and dangerous to go around preaching to people that the sacrqament of baptism is not necessary for their salvation.

.

Exactly right! It is just the position you took that it is absolutely required that is incorrect and not part of Catholic teaching.

 

[Aussieman88]

There is dear friend Only ONE unforgiveable sin: Denial of God! "

This is not true and can not be backed up by anything you might find in any bible.

The unforgiveable sin is “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.”

Read the bible people.

 

[ffg]

Sorry, after re-reading I thought there could be confusion here, so I’d like to specify this earlier line -

The prayer of absolution in confession eliminates the sin, but does not eliminate the stain. Penance, retribution, suffering eliminate the stain aka, cleanse the soul.

to

The prayer of absolution in confession eliminates the confessing person’s sins, but does not eliminate the stains associated to those sins. Penance, retribution, suffering eliminate the stain aka, cleanse the soul.

It looked like I was linking OS to Confession, at least I could see where one would see this possibility.

 

[Alizarin]

The official teaching of the CC is that outside of the Church there is no salvation. Membership in the CC may be imperfect (or implicit), or it may be explicit.

But the qualitative and quantitative degrees of membership in His Body are not for us to know.

Full membership: Roman Catholics
Associate membership: Orthodox, Protestants, and un-evangelized non-Christians who inhabit the spiritual country of Invincible Ignorance (even though they don’t know it)
No membership: we can’t tell, because baptism of desire could apply but only God would know if that’s the case.

The gate isn’t looking so narrow nowadays… :extrahappy:

Best idea ever: “qualitative and quantitative degrees”

 

[PRmerger]

Full membership: Roman Catholics

Not exactly.

The Catholic Church is not Roman, Alizarin. There are 23 different rites, all in union with the Bishop of Rome.

The Roman, or Latin, rite, is only 1 of these rites.

 

[Alizarin]

Not exactly.

The Catholic Church is not Roman, Alizarin. There are 23 different rites, all in union with the Bishop of Rome.

The Roman, or Latin, rite, is only 1 of these rites.

Union with bishop of Rome equals Roman Catholic, regardless of style of liturgy (Latin rite, eastern rite, Coptic, Maronite etc).

I have a feeling you know that and you know exactly what I was expressing I in the post. But we go back to the word games that derailed this thread 38 pages ago… No big deal. I have work to do anyway. Later.

 

[PRmerger]

Union with bishop of Rome equals Roman Catholic, regardless of style of liturgy (Latin rite, eastern rite, Coptic, Maronite etc).

I have a feeling you know that and you know exactly what I was expressing I in the post. But we go back to the word games that derailed this thread 38 pages ago… No big deal. I have work to do anyway. Later.

I think you are mistaken.

If you ask a Ruthenian Catholic if she is a Roman Catholic, she will answer, “No. But I am a Catholic.”

Also, Chaldean Catholics are not Roman Catholics.

Same with Ethiopian Coptic Christians.

Etc etc etc

 

[PRmerger]

Union with bishop of Rome equals Roman Catholic, regardless of style of liturgy (Latin rite, eastern rite, Coptic, Maronite etc).

I have a feeling you know that and you know exactly what I was expressing I in the post. But we go back to the word games that derailed this thread 38 pages ago… No big deal. I have work to do anyway. Later.

Just to let you and the lurkers know that what you have said is not correct, here are some posts from other knowledgeable members of the CAFs.

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 particular Churches, 22 of which are not Roman.

In addition to the attitude of arrogance and disparagement that comes across toward our Orthodox siblings, this is a very prejudicial and bigoted position. The reason there are 22 other Rites is because the successor of Peter in Rome appreciates and affirms the liturgical, cultural, and linguistic distinctives of those who are NOT ROMAN.

Yes, all are in communion with the successor of Peter, and for that reason are Catholic, but forcing your concepts and cultures on others that don’t want them (and don’t need them to be in communion) is one of the attitudes that continues to cause separation and schism in the Body. Essentially, your attitudes are one of the biggest obstacles to reconciliation.

I am sure you are very proud of your Latin Rite, Laudate, but your position is contrary to what is taught in the Catechism.

The CC is not “Roman”, but universal. The other 22 Rites are just as validly Catholic as the Latin Rite, and the Orthodox are really and truly the other lung of the Church.

The Catholic Church: A communion of 22+ specific churches Sui Iuris, united under the pope, but otherwise generally autonomous. One is western - the Roman Church (sometimes called the Latin Church); the rest are Eastern.

 

[eddie_too]

the term roman catholic is used by the popes to refer to all rites that recognize the pope as the head of the church.

as others have said there are 23 rites within the roman catholic church. all but one of those rites is identified as eastern rites. the only western rite is the latin rite. the latin rite is practiced by the vast majority of roman catholics.

it is true that many have been confused by referring to the latin rite as the roman rite.

 

[PRmerger]

the term roman catholic is used by the popes to refer to all rites that recognize the pope as the head of the church.

Source?

 

[eddie_too]

here is paragraph 27 from pius XII’s encyclical humani generis:

1. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.

other popes have also used the term in this manner.

it is true however that others use the term in a manner that restricts its meaning to those catholics who practice the western rite, also known as the latin rite as well as the roman rite.

it is pretty much a very minor detail to me. but, using only the word catholic to refer to all who are loyal to the pope lends itself to confusion because there are those not loyal to the pope who also claim the term catholic. for example, old catholics, lefbvrists, even our eastern orthodox brothers who have so much in common with us. even some episcopalians.

on the other hand, the church under the leadership of peter’s successor is most certainly the universal church and there is no other. so, rightly speaking, only it can claim to be the catholic church.

 

[jmcrae]

Then, sadly, you were taught incorrectly.

Did you know that the Catholic Church has an entire day set aside to honor those folks who are in heaven who were not baptized? It’s in December. It’s called the Feast of the Holy Innocents–a multitude of babies who are in heaven but were not baptized.

They died under the Old Covenant, though. Under the New Covenant, baptism (in one of its three forms) is required.

The question arising is “Does a person who has no idea that baptism even exists have the ability to desire baptism?” and we can answer that with an analogy - suppose a person has a terrible allergy, and they go to the pharmacy and they say, “I need aspirin for my allergy.” The pharmacist tells her, “No, you need an antihistamine; you don’t need aspirin.”

So the person has the desire for an antihistamine, but doesn’t realize it.

In the same way, a person who doesn’t know about baptism might say, “I need something to renew my soul and put me in the state of grace in order to know God - but I don’t know what it is that I need.” The person might try every kind of religion, looking for this thing that they don’t know what it is. That person may well have Baptism of Desire, without realizing it.

But without Baptism of Blood (martyrdom), Baptism of Desire (catechumenate) or actual Baptism, no one can be saved.

 

[ffg]

But without Baptism of Blood (martyrdom), Baptism of Desire (catechumenate) or actual Baptism, no one can be saved.

So because a dead person, say a 1 month old baby who dies of SIDS, who doesn’t have the ability to logic to get to the point of #2, you are confident that person does not get to heaven?

 

[steve_b]

It is in the bible that each soul will be judged on it’s own merits. This includes everyone from Adam and Eve on down.
I have noticed that the Catholic Church does not judge only educates us on salvation. For example it does not say a person who commits suicide is damned only that it is a mortal sin to commit murder. Likewise it does not say non-Catholics are damned only that to be saved you should be Catholic.
Jesus said in the bible that to be saved one must love God with his whole heart, soul, mind and body and love one another as he loves himself.
If you love someone this way you do everything you can to please the one you love. **I could not express my love as a non-Catholic because as a Catholic I can express my love the way Jesus said better than any other religion. i.e. the Sacraments. **

You make an important qualification. Just as James qualified what it means to have faith that saves James 2:14-20, so also Jesus qualified what it means to love Him. John 14:23-24

Both faith, and loving Jesus, have no value if both are merely said. As James said, a said faith alone is dead. And that goes for said love alone, too. They have to be lived, & demonstrated to be alive. And it has to be His way not our way.

John 14:23-24 If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him. [24] He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard, is not mine; but the Father’ s who sent me.

That’s a conditional statement. Therefore, to keep Our Lord’s word, those who love Jesus, are to meet His conditions. For instance, be in the Church He established in the 1st century on Peter and the apostles Matthew 16:16-19 and remain in it, because it’s not only the pillar and foundation of truth 1 Timothy 3:15 it’s also because apart from His Church there is no salvation Romans 16:17-20 because if one divides or remains divided from His Church, they are outside the promises Jesus made to His Church. They disobey the Divine Will, and will not inherit heaven Galatians 5:19-21. That’s because in the Divine Will, there is to be perfect unity. John 17:20-23 . As in ZERO division of any kind. Division is NOT tollerated, either in His Church or from His Church. And 2000 years later, Pope Francis, 266th successor to St Peter is over this same Church Paul writes to.

So the question is (paraphrased), Can non Catholics be in heaven?

If we look at scripture, It would be pure speculation on the one hand to say yes. That would presume judging a soul especially one who is outside the Church. otoh, the Church in her pastoral mission, while she can’t contradict scripture, leaves wiggle room for one’s ignorance in these matters…providing one’s ignorance in these matters is completely innocent. iow, one’s fingerprints can’t be all over their own ignorance. For example. The Church says If one makes little effort to learn the truth, and instead avoids knowing what they should know, given the ease of attaining information today, **then **they can’t innocently claim ignorance. They become culpable for their situation. 1791 CCC paraphrased]

As an aside regarding “ignorance” as “through no fault of their own”, “may achieve salvation”

it is dangerous to presume this phrase for non Catholics, is an escape clause, as long as one is not convicted of the truth of the Catholic faith, thus one may think that all will be well for them. This is not the Catholic teaching on this subject. This argument is a theoretical and theological possibility only. For example, when the Church says one “may” achieve salvation, “may” ≠ will, may ≠ probably, may might only be a remote possibility. Then again “may” might not happen at all.

Protestants, or any non-Catholic, will be judged by Jesus on their culpability for not accepting the true faith. Obviously, one will be held to a standard consumerate with the opportunities that are presented to them, and the access they had to the Church’s teachings. For those - especially in more affluent countries where information is soooo easy to access, this is no light matter. For example, how many people today on the planet, have zero capability to access a computer? Literally, ALL information on this subject of faith is at one’s fingertips on a computer or smart phone. It’s getting to be a smaller and smaller group of people as time moves on, who have no access to this information.

 

[eddie_too]

from the catechism of the catholic church about unbaptized infants?

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,”64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. (1257, 1250)

 

[steve_b]

Not exactly.

The Catholic Church is not Roman, Alizarin. There are 23 different rites, all in union with the Bishop of Rome.

The Roman, or Latin, rite, is only 1 of these rites.

Correct.

while the Latin/Roman rite is ~98% of the Catholic Church, and the other rites make up the ramaining ~2%, all rites are 100% Catholic. All make up the Catholic Church.

 

[ffg]

from the catechism of the catholic church about unbaptized infants?

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,”64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. (1257, 1250)

Exactly.

It’s also logical. There is Death, Judgement, Heaven, Hell. If death comes and there is nothing to judge, the conclusion seems pretty logical.

Of course to be 100% correct, we just end with trusting in God’s mercy as mentioned in CCC.

But to consider hell vs heaven for a soul with nothing to judge due to details that can only apply with time spent in earth’s nature doesn’t strike me as logical.

 

[Rob03]

They may have been Jesus’ brothers and sisters, but they did not come from Mary.

There is nothing in the Bible that says that Mary had other children.

That, ironically, is a tradition that you have believed that doesn’t follow the Bible.

So you are saying Joseph divorced Mary and married again to have other children?

 

[Alizarin]

the term roman catholic is used by the popes to refer to all rites that recognize the pope as the head of the church.

as others have said there are 23 rites within the roman catholic church. all but one of those rites is identified as eastern rites. the only western rite is the latin rite. the latin rite is practiced by the vast majority of roman catholics.

it is true that many have been confused by referring to the latin rite as the roman rite.

:yup: and in addition to that, this, from Merriam Webster:

“Roman Catholic: * of, relating to, or being a Christian church having a hierarchy of priests and bishops under the pope, a liturgy centered in the Mass, veneration of the Virgin Mary and saints, clerical celibacy, and a body of dogma including transubstantiation and papal infallibility *”

But why should this part of the discussion be any different from the rest of it? Rhetorical acrobatics as an instrument to solidify one’s position, regardless of how erroneous it may be, is the M.O. Has been since page 2, imho.