To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

[dronald]

Did you even read what I posted about Faith and works. You can go back and read it, I dont deny that Christians should do works, just clearing up the fact that it essieantly has NO part whatsoever in our Salvation. And what your pastor said=What every other pastor says

P.S. Most Catholics I’ve talked with our pretty easy going and laid back, they believe Protestants are going to Heaven as well without a doubt

I read the entire thing, and all we’re doing is playing with words. Most Protestant Churches teach faith+works but they just have a different approach.

For Protestants I find it’s, “You’re a Christian therefore you must do works, but if you don’t it doesn’t matter… Except it does matter because you’re commanded to…”

Catholics it’s more: You’re a Christian therefore you must do works because you’re commanded to."

I never understood where the underlying issue is here, because Protestants will ultimately admit that works are important just as Catholics do. You even posted here:

This is why in the middle of his section on faith and works, he says in verse 19, “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James says this because the demons believe in God, that is, they have faith, but the faith they have is useless. It does not result in appropriate works. Their faith is only a mental acknowledgment of God’s existence.

So you accept that believing in Christ is not enough, just like the Catholics.

 

[bill99]

Do you really want to discuss the differences between the Catholic Church and the JW’s?

well the principle remains the same

 

[Randy_Carson]

2 Thes 2:15 is talking about the gospels but i see your point and will think on them

Excellent. Keep thinking, praying and asking questions.

 

[bill99]

I read the entire thing, and all we’re doing is playing with words. Most Protestant Churches teach faith+works but they just have a different approach.

For Protestants I find it’s, “You’re a Christian therefore you must do works, but if you don’t it doesn’t matter… Except it does matter because you’re commanded to…”

Catholics it’s more: You’re a Christian therefore you must do works because you’re commanded to."

I never understood where the underlying issue is here, because Protestants will ultimately admit that works are important just as Catholics do. You even posted here:

So you accept that believing in Christ is not enough, just like the Catholics.

Catholics believe in faith alone if it is faith formed by charity then they believe in faith alone.Protestant view of faith= catholic idea of faith+ catholic idea of hope+ catholic idea of charity

 

[yogosans14]

paul wrote that we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling also where is faith alone again?

In Philippians 2:12-13, Paul writes, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.”

This text is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation. What does it mean to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Paul can hardly be encouraging believers to live in a continuous condition of nervousness and anxiety. That would contradict his many other exhortations to peace of mind, courage, and confidence in the God who authors our salvation. The Greek word translated “fear” in this context can equally mean “reverence” or “respect.” Paul uses the same phrase in (2 Corinthians 7:15) where he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the Corinthians’ reception of him “with fear and trembling,” that is, with great humility and respect for his position as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in “weakness and fear, and with much trembling” (1 Corinthians 2:3), mindful of the great and awesome nature of the work in which he was engaged.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means “to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition.” We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14). The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. “Trembling” can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy. Psalm 2:11 sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2), coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe.

 

[yogosans14]

Do you really want to discuss the differences between the Catholic Church and the JW’s?

No, although they both believe they have the 100% truth (and what Im getting from this thread vs personal expirence with Catholics, they believe they are the only ones saved as well) but Jehovahs Witnesses are a non christian doomsday cult while I as most Protestants consider Catholics Christian.

 

[bill99]

In Philippians 2:12-13, Paul writes, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.”

This text is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation. What does it mean to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Paul can hardly be encouraging believers to live in a continuous condition of nervousness and anxiety. That would contradict his many other exhortations to peace of mind, courage, and confidence in the God who authors our salvation. The Greek word translated “fear” in this context can equally mean “reverence” or “respect.” Paul uses the same phrase in (2 Corinthians 7:15) where he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the Corinthians’ reception of him “with fear and trembling,” that is, with great humility and respect for his position as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in “weakness and fear, and with much trembling” (1 Corinthians 2:3), mindful of the great and awesome nature of the work in which he was engaged.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means “to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition.” We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14). The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. “Trembling” can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy. Psalm 2:11 sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2), coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe.

Ephesians 2:10 ,Matthew 5:16 ,Titus 1:16. James 2:26

 

[bill99]

James 2:14-26

 

[bill99]

To Follow by faith alone is to follow blindly.

Benjamin Franklin

 

[Isaiah45_9]

men inspired by the holy spirit. their are two positions I believe in sola scripture and others believe in the authority of the church all things scripture says is defined by the church and the church defines what is and what is not tradition and what tradition does and does not do. how is tradition inspired? where in the bible is this?

Still given to men. No way around it.

Why does it have to be in the Bible?

 

[bill99]

Still given to men. No way around it.

Why does it have to be in the Bible?

what if the pope tells us to worship the grass? how do you prove him wrong? would you do it why or why not?

 

[yogosans14]

Ok I’ll admit, what I have been told about what Catholics believe when it comes to works and faith I see more clearly now and I (think) its more in line with mine and most Protestant views

Salvation is a gift from GOD through Christ.
We cannot earn this by our good actions.
But we show our gratitude by our works.
Jesus said “Those who do the will of my Father.”

 

[Isaiah45_9]

A good faith is a result of GOOD WORKS. Lets look at the Jehovahs Witnesses for example, they go out and preach door to door and put in a lot of time because they believe in a works based salvation, infact they believe if you arent doing ENOUGH works then you will be destroyed at Armageddon. They are in reality, only kidding themselves. Relationship with God is what matters, not works

The only way out of your proposition is to make an illogical comparison.

Faith without Works Is Dead

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters,[a] if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

Crystal Clear to me.

BTW, check my sig line

 

[bill99]

:

Ok I’ll admit, what I have been told about what Catholics believe when it comes to works and faith I see more clearly now and I (think) its more in line with mine and most Protestant views

Salvation is a gift from GOD through Christ.
We cannot earn this by our good actions.
But we show our gratitude by our works.
Jesus said “Those who do the will of my Father.”

:yyeess::yyeess::yyeess:

 

[Isaiah45_9]

No, although they both believe they have the 100% truth (and what Im getting from this thread vs personal expirence with Catholics, they believe they are the only ones saved as well) but Jehovahs Witnesses are a non christian doomsday cult while I as most Protestants consider Catholics Christian.

And you are comfortable to throw a blanket waiver for the millions of Catholics around the world…

If you want real Catholic teaching read the Catechism.

The question is:

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/de...nt_width/hash/71/03/truth_3.jpg?itok=Oj4mGBFq

 

[dronald]

Ok I’ll admit, what I have been told about what Catholics believe when it comes to works and faith I see more clearly now and I (think) its more in line with mine and most Protestant views

Salvation is a gift from GOD through Christ.
We cannot earn this by our good actions.
But we show our gratitude by our works.
Jesus said “Those who do the will of my Father.”

Hurray!

You’ll actually come to find that Catholics and Protestants have far more in common than differences. The main difference is the Eucharist; besides that, most of our differences are elementary and not even worth arguing about.

My conversion to Catholicism is because of the Eucharist first and foremost. What kept me out of the CC was my misunderstanding of some of their beliefs… I.E: Mary, Statues, and the same old stuff.

Unfortunately for my Evangelical Church, I love history too much and I have been doing immense private study of Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Eusebius, and their writings. I feel ashamed to not believe in the Eucharist when I read what they wrote.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

what if the pope tells us to worship the grass? how do you prove him wrong? would you do it why or why not?

So instead of analyzing the truth, you would rather analyze the what if’s…

There was a Pope when the New Testament was decided.

How would you know what the New Testament is without the Catholic Church?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Hurray!

You’ll actually come to find that Catholics and Protestants have far more in common than differences. The main difference is the Eucharist; besides that, most of our differences are elementary and not even worth arguing about.

My conversion to Catholicism is because of the Eucharist first and foremost. What kept me out of the CC was my misunderstanding of some of their beliefs… I.E: Mary, Statues, and the same old stuff.

Unfortunately for my Evangelical Church, I love history too much and I have been doing immense private study of Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Eusebius, and their writings. I feel ashamed to not believe in the Eucharist when I read what they wrote.

 

[eddie_too]

where catholics and most other christians agree on the faith/works debate is that no human being can EARN salvation.

but, from the catholic perspective, good works are essential because Jesus says (on more than one occasion) we will be judge based on our works.

so while works alone cannot, in themselves, save us; they can definitely contribute to our damnation.

 

[eddie_too]

Originally Posted by bill99
what if the pope tells us to worship the grass? how do you prove him wrong? would you do it why or why not?

bill99,

catholics do not worry about the pope misleading them because they believe that Jesus knew what He was doing when He established His Church and its administrative structure. catholics believe Jesus would not have created a church that would mislead them.