To Be in Heaven, You Must Be Catholic

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I asked YOU the question and you haven’t answered it. Here it is again: “Maybe you would like to explain to me and to others reading this thread what exactly the difference is between a traditionalist Catholic and a true Catholic?”

Also, I said in my profile: “I have recently become aware of the traditionalist Catholic movement that give their allegiance to the pre-Vatican ll church. I hope to learn more about that and my Catholic faith generally.” That does not state that I AM a traditionalist Catholic.
I will just use your own words: Traditionalist Catholics give their allegiance to the pre-Vatican II Church.

Again, how odd that you would feign an inability to know what a Traditionalist Catholic is, given your very own words. :whacky:
 
I asked YOU the question and you haven’t answered it. Here it is again: “Maybe you would like to explain to me and to others reading this thread what exactly the difference is between a traditionalist Catholic and a true Catholic?”

Also, I said in my profile: “I have recently become aware of the traditionalist Catholic movement that give their allegiance to the pre-Vatican ll church. I hope to learn more about that and my Catholic faith generally.” That does not state that I AM a traditionalist Catholic.
So are you a Traditionalist Catholic, James?
 
I will just use your own words: Traditionalist Catholics give their allegiance to the pre-Vatican II Church.

Again, how odd that you would feign an inability to know what a Traditionalist Catholic is, given your very own words. :whacky:
I am not feigning an inability to know what a traditionalist Catholic is. It is clear that you are a person of bad will in that you are twisting my words and you are afraid to answer the question.
 
I am not feigning an inability to know what a traditionalist Catholic is. It is clear that you are a person of bad will in that you are twisting my words and you are afraid to answer the question.
I answered your question.

Please answer mine: are you a Traditionalist Catholic?
 
Are there people who think they have enough faith, but actually don’t?
This doesn’t make much sense…if you are born again and have received the Holy Spirit but you still turn from God, your faith was never really strong to begin with 🤷
 
I answered your question.

Please answer mine: are you a Traditionalist Catholic?
You did NOT answer my question. Here it is again: What is the difference between a traditionalist Catholic and a true Catholic?
 
This doesn’t make much sense…if you are born again and have received the Holy Spirit but you still turn from God, your faith was never really strong to begin with 🤷
I don’t have a problem with that.

The question I have is how does one know if he’s a true believer or only thinks he’s a true believer?

For surely there are folks who thought they were saved, (like some of the OSAS pastors who end up falling from their pastorship because of an adulterous relationship) but truly weren’t.

At least, that’s the answer I received from OSAS advocates who were explaining to me how someone who said the sinner’s prayer could commit adultery. The answer was: they thought they were saved but weren’t.

So do you believe that there are people who think they’re saved and actually are not?
 
I don’t have a problem with that.

The question I have is how does one know if he’s a true believer or only thinks he’s a true believer?

For surely there are folks who thought they were saved, (like some of the OSAS pastors who end up falling from their pastorship because of an adulterous relationship) but truly weren’t.

At least, that’s the answer I received from OSAS advocates who were explaining to me how someone who said the sinner’s prayer could commit adultery. The answer was: they thought they were saved but weren’t.

So do you believe that there are people who think they’re saved and actually are not?
When we are born again ,of course we can fall into temptation. But once we are convicted, we need to ask God for forgiveness immediately. Some strong believers in OSAS will think they can commit sin all the time and ask for forgiveness but they really arent repentant.

God knows the hearts, and we should know ours.
 
When we are born again ,of course we can fall into temptation. But once we are convicted, we need to ask God for forgiveness immediately. Some strong believers in OSAS will think they can commit sin all the time and ask for forgiveness but they really arent repentant.

God knows the hearts, and we should know ours.
So a person can say the sinner’s prayer, commit adultery and still be saved?
 
Oh stop, now were just playing word games.
Word games? No, I laid it out clearly in my OP:
Provocative title, eh?
I hoped to get your attention, because I’m floating this argument which I put together this morning.
  1. Jesus only has one body.
  2. To be in heaven, one must be a member of the body of Christ
  3. The body of Christ is the Church.
  4. The Church instituted by Christ has a name – the Catholic Church.
    Therefore, to be in heaven, one must be a member of the Catholic Church.
I anticipate some possible objection to 1 and much rejection to 4, but let’s see how it unfolds.
I look forward to reading your thoughts for and against.
I was pretty up front about my purpose…
 
When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security.
REFUTATION OF ARGUMENTS FOR OSAS

The story of the prodigal son pretty much says it all. The son left the household on his own accord. Upon coming to his senses he returns to his father’ household and confesses that he has sinned. Scripture then gives us the clear message about what has taken place. In Luke 15:22-24 it says:

“the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet and bring the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and make merry; for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to make merry.”

Jesus is telling this parable about salvation. The son was a member of the household but “squandered his inheritance.” The son was “dead.” Upon returning in repentance to the household, the son is “alive again.”

This truth of wandering off in sin and then being restored is spoken of elsewhere in scripture as well. For instance in James 5:19-20 it says,

“My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

These two passages of scripture totally debunk OSAS yet there are many more. I have personally researched in excess of 60 passages that deny the teaching. Moreover, only a few verses of scriptures can be spun in some erroneous way to support it. Those that defend the doctrine seem to stake the teaching of OSAS on Jesus statement that “…I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.” Not surprisingly, this verse does not add up to what the proponents would like it to.

Naturally, Catholics say “Amen” to this verse but we understand it a little differently. The proponents apparently believe that this verse demonstrates that the “true believer” cannot be lost because Jesus says, “they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” We believe that this verse has to be understood in the greater context of the gospel and that it requires a little analysis to be fully appreciated.

This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-12 which reads,

“Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from the Jesus’ or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. Moreover, if Jesus was teaching OSAS he would not have been praying to the Father for the apostles and for us in this fashion. There would simply be no need for these prayers for they would have no impact on our salvation because our salvation would be a done deal.
 
I asked YOU the question and you haven’t answered it. Here it is again: “Maybe you would like to explain to me and to others reading this thread what exactly the difference is between a traditionalist Catholic and a true Catholic?”

Also, I said in my profile: “I have recently become aware of the traditionalist Catholic movement that give their allegiance to the pre-Vatican ll church. I hope to learn more about that and my Catholic faith generally.” That does not state that I AM a traditionalist Catholic.
Well, context is everything, but Traditionalists prefer the mass in Latin, women wear head coverings, and going further, they would argue that there has not been a valid pope since Pius XII.

However, it might be important to distinguish between sede vacantists and Traditionalists.
 
This doesn’t make much sense…if you are born again and have received the Holy Spirit but you still turn from God, your faith was never really strong to begin with 🤷
But you really can’t be sure where you stand today or where you will be 30 years from now, can you?

You can think you are okay or you can believe that you’ll still be following Christ in the future, but you can’t be sure whether you will persevere to end or not.

Some do, some don’t. Which are you?

Sure…everyone THINKS they will never back slide…but some do, yogo, some do…
 
When we are born again ,of course we can fall into temptation. But once we are convicted, we need to ask God for forgiveness immediately. Some strong believers in OSAS will think they can commit sin all the time and ask for forgiveness but they really arent repentant.

God knows the hearts, and we should know ours.
It’s not today that is the problem, yogo. Today, you are fired up for Jesus.

It’s the future you have no knowledge of…life can be long, hard and full of temptations and crushing blows…

I’m not saying you aren’t saved TODAY…but you can’t be too sure about tomorrow…none of us can. Run the race…
 
But you really can’t be sure where you stand today or where you will be 30 years from now, can you?

You can think you are okay or you can believe that you’ll still be following Christ in the future, but you can’t be sure whether you will persevere to end or not.

Some do, some don’t. Which are you?

Sure…everyone THINKS they will never back slide…but some do, yogo, some do…
Right.

The only answer that a OSAS advocate can give is that there are Faux Believers. People who think they are saved but actually are not.

Otherwise, they have to say that a person who has said the sinner’s prayer, then becomes a pornographer, is clean enough to enter heaven. :eek:
 
Did you even read what I posted about Faith and works. You can go back and read it, I dont deny that Christians should do works, just clearing up the fact that it essieantly has NO part whatsoever in our Salvation. And what your pastor said=What every other pastor says :confused:

P.S. Most Catholics I’ve talked with our pretty easy going and laid back, they believe Protestants are going to Heaven as well without a doubt 🙂
What is compounding misunderstanding is the word ‘works’.

Sub the word ‘prepare’ and maybe that will help. Faith and Preparation.

This vs mindset keeps folks from even approaching the same page.

Your first comment quoted here is opposite of Jesus’ teaching in the parable of the 10 virgins.

They all had faith.

Half prepared wisely. That half was welcomed, the ones who didn’t prepare well were told from God, they were not known.

Specific to that preparation was not the memorization of rules, rather action just like you and I might go to a potluck. We need to bring the food, not just know how the party runs.

It should probably be noted again that preparation is not a lead in to expectation of decisions outside of our control. We are owed nothing and can not earn heaven. It’s prudent to prepare and put our best foot forward though.
 
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