To become Orthodox or Catholic?

[Contarini]

Most of the issues that you bring up here are the issues I have had with the Roman Catholic Church (although purgatory reminds me of the Orthodox idea of the tollhouses) . My other stumbling block is that I was raised Mennonite, and basically was taught from little on up that the Roman Catholic Church is the “Whore of Babylon” etc. partially due to a book called “The Martyr’s Mirror,” which paints the Roman Catholic Church as being extremely cruel and oppressive to Mennonites and anabaptists in general.

Well, it was. On the other hand, if you talk to Eastern European evangelicals, or read about the (Mennonite-influenced) Stundist movement in Russia, you’ll see that the Orthodox Church can be quite oppressive as well.

I understand where you are coming from. I nearly became Catholic in grad school, and my family freaked out. That’s partly how I wound up Anglican!

Edwin

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I see it like a struggle between the Apostle Peter been the Roman Church and Andrew been the Orthodox Churches. Both blessed by Christ both with legal rights to teach. Been Roman I give my loyalty to Rome due to Matt 16:18-19.

Matthew 16, huh? Not said in Rome, not mentioning Rome. Not even said in Latin.

Only problem: The Patriach of Antioch succeeds Peter in his original see. I don’t see anyting of Peter and Andrew (the brothers) dividing up the Church.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

As you can see by this post so much of the Orthodox perspective is based on how they are NOT Catholic. You’ll be hard pressed to find Orthodox writings nowadays that don’t bring up the Catholic Church and how wrong it is.

Plenty of Orthodox writing, particularly that by the Orthodox for the Orthodox, don’t mention the Latin church at all.

Maybe you’re just interesting in what we say about you, and not in what we say.

The Catholic Church doesn’t haven’t this identity crisis. The Catholic Church has said that Orthodox sacraments are valid because they’ve left the door open for unity. Jesus prayed for unity.

At the meeting with the Orthodox a while back, the Latins walked out when the Orthodox refused to state that Latin baptism was as valid as an Orthodox one. For us, that’s like a US court interpretation of a a Russian law. It’s not precedent in Russian courts, so who cares.

The Catholic Church is not concerned with distinguishing itself from the Orthodox Church like the Orthodox are from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is concerned with bringing Christ to the world.

We are the Catholic Church, One, Holy and Apostolic. Accept no look alike, imitations, or generica brands. We distinguish ourselves so the mislabel “just like the ‘Catholics’ but without the pope” won’t mislead.

The mission from Russia to the New World was the longest missionary journey in history, going Asia and down to California, where the Spanish Inquisition gave us the martyr St. Peter the Aleut.

The Pope is one of the most identifable figures in the world. The Catholic Church is the light on the hill. While the Orthodox hide their light under a bushel.

Oh, is he? This will shine some light:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_synod

Needless the say, the present pope is not like Pope Stephen VI, but not even Vatican theory can rule out that another Stephen can’t come along. There’s been plenty.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The tipping point for me was when I reflected on that last phrase of the Creed: “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church”. Among other things, I considered which of the two has better fulfilled Christ’s mandate to carry His Gospel to all nations and cultures. Which of the two speaks with one voice, and so on.

I share your appreciation of the Eastern liturgy, iconography, etc. Part of Catholicism’s being truly “catholic” is that it embraces both East and West. The new Catechism freequently quotes with appreciation the Eastern Fathers, hymns, and so on.

You probably have heard of Eastern-rite Catholics who maintain all of these venerable traditions, and yet are in communion with Rome. In becoming Catholic, you really can have it all!

Until it’s all Latinized, that is, e.g. did we ever get an answer on the other forum, why uniates can’t have married priests in America? I mean, without having to sneak around.

There’s also a Western Rite Orthodox, so you REALLY can have it all.

Speaks with one voice? Hmmm. I’d tread softer, before someone starts rattling off the cacophony in that “one voice.”

Carry the Gospel, hmmm. Conquistadores did a lot of that in Latin America, where about half the Latin church lives (until the protestants get them). Ditto the Phillipines.

The slaves were Christianized by missionaries sent from Constantinople and the East, including those slaves the Germans later Latinized.

Orthodox were busy in India long before the Latins showed up (with the Inquisition). And from Ancient times in subsaharan Africa (Ethiopia, Nubia): European colonialism gave the Latin church a push there (though one of the best catches, cardinal Arinze had nothing to do with this: he converted in a Protestant colony).

Now that being said, the Latins are busy (in a good sense) in evangelization, charity, etc. but how they got a head start can’t be ignored when you are trying to compare missinary zeals (something rather pointless).

 

[Isa_Almisry]

If you are a Western Christian, become Catholic unless you are 100% convinced that Catholicism’s dogmas are wrong (where they differ from Orthodoxy, chiefly with regards to papal authority).

God will not send you to hell for making the wrong decision in good faith. Follow truth where you see it. If you see it in both churches, as I do, then either stay Protestant of some sort (as I do) or follow the advice I gave in the previous paragraph!

Edwin

From the rising to the setting of the sun the Lord is praised, so why go to present day Rome if you are Western? If you find Rome correct, THEN go swim the Tiber.

I agree with your second paragraph.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Most of the issues that you bring up here are the issues I have had with the Roman Catholic Church (although purgatory reminds me of the Orthodox idea of the tollhouses) . My other stumbling block is that I was raised Mennonite, and basically was taught from little on up that the Roman Catholic Church is the “Whore of Babylon” etc. partially due to a book called “The Martyr’s Mirror,” which paints the Roman Catholic Church as being extremely cruel and oppressive to Mennonites and anabaptists in general. While my views on this have changed somewhat dramatically, it is still hard to overcome those prejudices.

My family knows I attend an Orthodox church, but as of now this means little to them, whereas if I said Roman Catholic, I can’t imagine what the reaction would be!! This is my other dillemma. I haven’t come fully clean with my family about this out of fear of their reaction. I’m in college and still partially dependent on my parents, and if the carpet were fully pulled out from under me I’m not quite sure how I could handle it at this point. I am considering taking them with me to the Nativity Divine Liturgy, but I’m honestly afraid they’ll walk out!

The other thing that really bothers me is the division between the RC and EO church. Although I hear that both of their sacraments are valid, they can’t both possibly be the one true church they claim to be, can they? If so, then isn’t kind of like the Protestant idea of the universal church?

Don’t let learned prejudices block you from examining Rome’s claims. You owe that to YOURSELF.

I’ve heard/read that Mennonite understanding of the theology behind the Cross,i.e not a sacrifice to placate a wrathful God, but the Son pouring Himself out to unite the two He loved most, His Father and His Church, dying for us and not instead of us.

You’re right. We can’t be both right.

Can you guess which side I see it on?

 

[Ridgerunner]

At the meeting with the Orthodox a while back, the Latins walked out when the Orthodox refused to state that Latin baptism was as valid as an Orthodox one. For us, that’s like a US court interpretation of a a Russian law. It’s not precedent in Russian courts, so who cares.

We are the Catholic Church, One, Holy and Apostolic. Accept no look alike, imitations, or generica brands. We distinguish ourselves so the mislabel “just like the ‘Catholics’ but without the pope” won’t mislead.

The mission from Russia to the New World was the longest missionary journey in history, going Asia and down to California, where the Spanish Inquisition gave us the martyr St. Peter the Aleut.

Likely when the EO in this meeting denied the validity of Catholic baptism, the Latins saw that the wall EO have erected is so high that further discussion would serve no purpose. If the EO don’t even accept us a Christians, there’s not much way to get a dialogue going about Christian unity. Goodness! The Russian Orthodox Church walked out of a conference for far less; a territorial dispute with other Orthodox, and you all defended it!

“look alike”, “imitations”, “generic brands”, "the mislabel 'just like the “Catholics”. “Where the Spanish Inquisition…etc” The original poster, and others who are looking at both Churches might want to consider charity as a relevant factor.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Until it’s all Latinized, that is, e.g. did we ever get an answer on the other forum, why uniates can’t have married priests in America? I mean, without having to sneak around.

Speaks with one voice? Hmmm. I’d tread softer, before someone starts rattling off the cacophony in that “one voice.”

Carry the Gospel, hmmm. Conquistadores did a lot of that in Latin America, where about half the Latin church lives (until the protestants get them). Ditto the Phillipines.

The slaves were Christianized by missionaries sent from Constantinople and the East, including those slaves the Germans later Latinized.

Orthodox were busy in India long before the Latins showed up (with the Inquisition). And from Ancient times in subsaharan Africa (Ethiopia, Nubia): European colonialism gave the Latin church a push there (though one of the best catches, cardinal Arinze had nothing to do with this: he converted in a Protestant colony).

Now that being said, the Latins are busy (in a good sense) in evangelization, charity, etc. but how they got a head start can’t be ignored when you are trying to compare missinary zeals (something rather pointless).

Uncharity is not, however, pointless.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Likely when the EO in this meeting denied the validity of Catholic baptism, the Latins saw that the wall EO have erected is so high that further discussion would serve no purpose. If the EO don’t even accept us a Christians, there’s not much way to get a dialogue going about Christian unity. Goodness! The Russian Orthodox Church walked out of a conference for far less; a territorial dispute with other Orthodox, and you all defended it!

Yes, because Rome has shown us where territory disputes end up. We didn’t accept Vatican I from Old Rome, we’re not taking it from New Rome either.

If we weren’t accepting you as Christians, why were we talking we you at all? We just won’t deal with the issue separately from the issue of reunion.

“look alike”, “imitations”, “generic brands”, "the mislabel 'just like the “Catholics”. “Where the Spanish Inquisition…etc” The original poster, and others who are looking at both Churches might want to consider charity as a relevant factor.

I’m sorry, why are we Orthodox posting in the NONCATHOLIC forum?

Btw, to the OP, above all pray on the issue. Discussions like these can’t substitute for that.

Btw I’m finishing up the semester, and an upcoming custody court date again (judge still doesn’t think shack up beating mom in front of the kids is a bad idea). So I’ll be posting less.

Praying you find your way home.

 

[Pani_Rose]

Well, there are the Eastern Catholic Churches. Try the Byzantine or Greek Catholic Churches out for size

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes, because Rome has shown us where territory disputes end up. Rome does not have territorial disputes. Are you really blaming the ill will between the Russian and Greek Orthodox Patriarchs on Rome? Perhaps global warming as well?.

We didn’t accept Vatican I from Old Rome, we’re not taking it from New Rome either. But I thought you considered Constantinople the “New Rome”, at least until the Russians decided that Moscow is the “New Rome”. What “New Rome” are you talking about?

If we weren’t accepting you as Christians, why were we talking we you at all? **Evidently you weren’t. When you say, first thing, that we are not baptized, that’s the same as saying we aren’t Christians. It would be to you. ** We just won’t deal with the issue separately from the issue of reunion. **The problem is, of course, that your idea of “the issue of reunion” is for the Catholic Church to disappear and for all Catholics to become Orthodox, and the denial of the validity of Catholic Baptism communicates that loud and clear. **

I’m sorry, why are we Orthodox posting in the NONCATHOLIC forum? This is a forbidden topic. You know it, and you know why… Your being allowed to argue against Catholicism in this Catholic forum is dependant on your observing it. Enough said.

Btw, to the OP, above all pray on the issue. Discussions like these can’t substitute for that. ** I couldn’t agree more with this statement. OP, you should study this on your own. **

Btw I’m finishing up the semester, and an upcoming custody court date again (judge still doesn’t think shack up beating mom in front of the kids is a bad idea). So I’ll be posting less. This is a bit more than we really needed to know.

Praying you find your way home. Agreed

 

[Chellow]

Matthew 16, huh? Not said in Rome, not mentioning Rome. Not even said in Latin.

Only problem: The Patriach of Antioch succeeds Peter in his original see. I don’t see anyting of Peter and Andrew (the brothers) dividing up the Church.

Its true Antioch can rightly be called Peter’s first see, but he relocated to Rome and it’s recognized by most Orthodox as his Main see.
Statement of joint catholic-orthodox commission

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Constantinople
According to tradition, Constantinople has its roots in the preaching of the Apostle Andrew in Constantinople.

 

[pollsfriend]

Well, there are the Eastern Catholic Churches. Try the Byzantine or Greek Catholic Churches out for size

I’ve considered this actually. The closes Byzantine Catholic church is roughly an hours drive from my college.

Also, I know that this is only aschetics, but the parish I attend is part of the OCA, and in being so the tunes used for the liturgy are more ‘westernized’ than those of the Greek or Antiochan Orthodox Churches. There is a Greek Orthodox monastery I visit on occasion, and I find the tunes that they use to be somewhat strange-sounding to my western ears. Do the Eastern Catholic churches sound more Byzantine or western?

 

[SiempreFiel]

The mission from Russia to the New World was the longest missionary journey in history, going Asia and down to California, where the Spanish Inquisition gave us the martyr St. Peter the Aleut.

Thankfully, Our Lady of Guadalupe evangelized the New World before your Orthodox missionaries.

Thankfully, 8 million Aztecs converted to the Catholic Church in about 7 years!

Interestingly, St. Peter the Aleut’s feast day is celebrated on Dec. 12 (Dec. 25), the same day we celebrate Our Lady of Guadalupe, the first evangelizer of Latin America!!!

http://www.presentationministries.com/images/olg.jpg

 

[Volodymyr]

Dear Friend: You are now caught up looking at liturgical splendors - the Catolic Mass, Divine liturgy, what kind is singing - too Eastern, too Western? These things can draw you to become a believer - like supposed embassies of Knjaz’ St. Volodymyr to Saint Sophia in Konstantinopl. These men believed they were then in heaven. Very attracted to Orthodoxy by splendor of liturgy.

But Russia and Ukraina have stayed Orthodox not by splendor but because Orthodoxy is church of early Christians, shaped by monks of Egypt, Athos, and persevering despite great suffering, still having faith of Apostles. Its missionary monks carry holy faith to native peoples from Urals to Alaska. Its holy martrys have witnessed with death for 1000 years against Turks, Tatars, Mongols and Leninists. Orthodoxy teaches True Faith in most simple fashion, unchanging.

Beautyful liturgy, but importantly truth of faith - Holy Orthodoxy.

 

[Volodymyr]

Dear Friend: You are now caught up looking at liturgical splendors - the Catolic Mass, Divine liturgy, what kind is singing - too Eastern, too Western? These things can draw you to become a believer - like supposed embassies of Knjaz’ St. Volodymyr to Saint Sophia in Konstantinopl. These men believed they were then in heaven. Very attracted to Orthodoxy by splendor of liturgy.

But Russia and Ukraina have stayed Orthodox not by splendor but because Orthodoxy is church of early Christians, shaped by monks of Egypt, Athos, and persevering despite great suffering, still having faith of Apostles. Its missionary monks carry holy faith to native peoples from Urals to Alaska. Its holy martrys have witnessed with death for 1000 years against Turks, Tatars, Mongols and Leninists. Orthodoxy teaches True Faith in most simple fashion, unchanging.

Beautyful liturgy, but most important truth of faith - Holy Orthodoxy.

 

[SiempreFiel]

The mission from Russia to the New World was the longest missionary journey in history, going Asia and down to California, where the Spanish Inquisition gave us the martyr St. Peter the Aleut.

ST. FRANCIS XAVIER

The mission from Russia to the New World was the longest missionary journey? I don’t think so!

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Xavier_f_map_of_voyages_asia.PNG

 

[marlo]

A Good Catholic poster in this forum once said. It all goes down to the Bishop of Rome, If he is Right, then you’ll know where to Go, if he is wrong, do you know where to go?

its all up to you and with a lot of prayer!

Ok, so here it goes…

…I was introduced to the Eastern Orthodox Church approximately a year or so ago. Through this I began reading as much about the early church as I could. Based on my research and reading, I am now a quickly lapsing protestant. I started attending Orthodox Divine Liturgy regularly about six months ago, and have also started catechism (although I am not officially a catachumen).

About a month ago I started reading a lot of Catholic apologetics, and through that stumbled upon this forum. Two weeks ago I attended the second Catholic mass I had ever been to in my life, and something drew me back the following week (I’m probably the only person I know who ever goes to Catholic Mass and EO Divine Liturgy on the same Sunday!)

Now my dilemma, I don’t know what to think anymore! It seems to me that while the EO and RC both have a lot in common, there are some key distinctives. Both RC’s and EO’s I talk to claim that they believe that each other’s sacraments are valid, yet they would never partake of each other’s Eucharist! What am I to make of this? If both churches sacraments are valid, then what is the difference?

So now I’m in a real dilemma. I’m know I will eventually end up in one church or the other, but I’m petrified of making the wrong choice! Any advice?

 

[Alexius]

Most of the issues that you bring up here are the issues I have had with the Roman Catholic Church (although purgatory reminds me of the Orthodox idea of the tollhouses) . My other stumbling block is that I was raised Mennonite, and basically was taught from little on up that the Roman Catholic Church is the “Whore of Babylon” etc. partially due to a book called “The Martyr’s Mirror,” which paints the Roman Catholic Church as being extremely cruel and oppressive to Mennonites and anabaptists in general. While my views on this have changed somewhat dramatically, it is still hard to overcome those prejudices.

My family knows I attend an Orthodox church, but as of now this means little to them, whereas if I said Roman Catholic, I can’t imagine what the reaction would be!! This is my other dillemma. I haven’t come fully clean with my family about this out of fear of their reaction. I’m in college and still partially dependent on my parents, and if the carpet were fully pulled out from under me I’m not quite sure how I could handle it at this point. I am considering taking them with me to the Nativity Divine Liturgy, but I’m honestly afraid they’ll walk out!

The other thing that really bothers me is the division between the RC and EO church. Although I hear that both of their sacraments are valid, they can’t both possibly be the one true church they claim to be, can they? If so, then isn’t kind of like the Protestant idea of the universal church?

Both claim to be the One True Church founded in Christ. You must decide which is 100% correct and which is close. I personally love Orthodoxy, but I have no problem with Catholicism. I like them both and support them both…

Whoa!
Given your personal family back ground situation I would try Orthodoxy first. You will get a valid apostolic sacraments there while you solve the Catholic questions. Converting from Orthodoxy to Catholicism is easy because you already have the sacraments.
I have read young persons that convert to militantly anticatholic protestant denominations into the CC and lost family and friends, that is something you should ponder. And read a lot, and pray a lot, e- forums are not enough.

It may seem like good advice, but one should not view Orthodoxy as a stepping stone. It is either the true Church or it isn’t. In fact, I find an equal amount of Protestants enter Catholicism because they already ask the same questions about faith. The only difference is the answers. For Orthodox, the questions are different…

Until it’s all Latinized, that is, e.g. did we ever get an answer on the other forum, why uniates can’t have married priests in America? I mean, without having to sneak around.

There’s also a Western Rite Orthodox, so you REALLY can have it all.

Speaks with one voice? Hmmm. I’d tread softer, before someone starts rattling off the cacophony in that “one voice.”

Carry the Gospel, hmmm. Conquistadores did a lot of that in Latin America, where about half the Latin church lives (until the protestants get them). Ditto the Phillipines.

The slaves were Christianized by missionaries sent from Constantinople and the East, including those slaves the Germans later Latinized.

Orthodox were busy in India long before the Latins showed up (with the Inquisition). And from Ancient times in subsaharan Africa (Ethiopia, Nubia): European colonialism gave the Latin church a push there (though one of the best catches, cardinal Arinze had nothing to do with this: he converted in a Protestant colony).

Now that being said, the Latins are busy (in a good sense) in evangelization, charity, etc. but how they got a head start can’t be ignored when you are trying to compare missinary zeals (something rather pointless).

Do you mean the Slavs? How dare you call my people slaves!

I’m just joking

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Quinault]

My husband and I are going thru the “Inquirer” stage. You go to classes, learn about Orthodoxy THEN become a catechumen. I love it. The classes make so much sense! Reading and going to those classes are your best bet for EO.

I must say, one thing I absolutely LOVE about EO is that in a sense we really are all family. The parishes are smaller and they “know” each other. My inlaws in a little town in Oregon visited an EO parish and mentioned where we are attending and who our priest is. They knew him! And if we mention someone to our priest in general he knows them. He has them stay at their house! It is a beautiful, big family. I love it.

I am sad that you missed out on when there was an Eastern Christianity area. That was really cool. I wish I knew enough to help you in your journey and decisions.

You could look for an EO BB to check out and ask some questions.