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To Cardinal Newman said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."
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SyroMalankara
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SyroMalankara;13622040:
The politically correct lingo, very muddled and unclear for the sake of niceness. Does nothing to clarify or further discussion, since everyone’s afraid of offending everyone else.What is “today’s model”? PC?
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Wannano
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Wannano;13622199:
So at the risk of offending you, I will ask that you then referred to a Protestant group as a sect instead of as a church because in your understanding they are unqualified to be a church since they are not in full Communion with the Roman Catholic Church?The politically correct lingo, very muddled and unclear for the sake of niceness. Does nothing to clarify or further discussion, since everyone’s afraid of offending everyone else.
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SyroMalankara
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SyroMalankara;13622208:
no. Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East and other bodies that maintained Apostolic Succession, belief in the Real Presence, celebrate the 7 Sacraments and the Divine Liturgy are true Churches.So at the risk of offending you, I will ask that you then referred to a Protestant group as a sect instead of as a church because in your understanding they are unqualified to be a church since they are not in full Communion with the Roman Catholic Church?
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Wannano
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Wannano;13622233:
And the rest are false churches or sects?no. Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East and other bodies that maintained Apostolic Succession, belief in the Real Presence, celebrate the 7 Sacraments and the Divine Liturgy are true Churches.
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SyroMalankara
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SyroMalankara;13622235:
They are sincere people of faith in faith communities. The word sect is not necessary derogatory, like the word ‘cult’ is commonly used. I never called them ‘false churches’, I’d prefer not to call them ‘churches’ at all.And the rest are false churches or sects?
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Wannano
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Wannano;13622238:
I have gathered that, but you love them because your heart is overflowing with the love of Christ right?They are sincere people of faith in faith communities. The word sect is not necessary derogatory, like the word ‘cult’ is commonly used. I never called them ‘false churches’, I’d prefer not to call them ‘churches’ at all.
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SyroMalankara
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SyroMalankara;13622240:
The sarcasm is dripping from that statement. However, my love or dislike or whatever is not relevant to this thread. If you must know, I admire the sincerity of the members, however, I do not trust much of the leadership.I have gathered that, but you love them because your heart is overflowing with the love of Christ right?
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Wannano
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Wannano;13622266:
I am not wanting to be sarcastic. Actually your love or lack of it is relevant to all of your life and interactions as a Christian. The Bible clearly teaches that we can do all things, know all things but without love we are nothing.The sarcasm is dripping from that statement. However, my love or dislike or whatever is not relevant to this thread. If you must know, I admire the sincerity of the members, however, I do not trust much of the leadership.
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SyroMalankara
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SyroMalankara;13622280:
Is it loving to pretend that all self-proclaimed ‘churches’ are equal and that they are all teaching the Gospel truth?I am not wanting to be sarcastic. Actually your love or lack of it is relevant to all of your life and interactions as a Christian. The Bible clearly teaches that we can do all things, know all things but without love we are nothing.
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Wannano
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Wannano;13622266:
The sarcasm is dripping from that statement. However, my love or dislike or whatever is not relevant to this thread. If you must know, I admire the sincerity of the members, however, I do not trust much of the leadership.I need you to help me here, who is doing the pretending, the ‘churches’ or you or me observing them?Wannano;13622306:
Is it loving to pretend that all self-proclaimed ‘churches’ are equal and that they are all teaching the Gospel truth?
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SyroMalankara
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Both. One pretends to be church, and we pretend that they areI need you to help me here, who is doing the pretending, the ‘churches’ or you or me observing them?
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Wannano
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My battery is dead in my tablet sorryBoth. One pretends to be church, and we pretend that they are
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MichaelP3
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Hi MikeHave a great rest Michael.
With regard to Pope being Pope, here is the list of popes, note #33. - newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
With regard to Authority, it’s interesting that you subscribe to the Creed developed under the 33rd pope (Bishop of Rome, if you like), but don’t find him to have Authority. Is the Creed flimsy?
With regard to 1 Christianity - We have to ask why? Why didn’t a Luther event happen earlier? Or did it?
There has to be a reason, or a reasonable reason why Christianity was not more than 1 early on (or was it?).
A consideration -
Remember early on we are talking about people being tortured for the faith. That means Christianity used to mean something deathly important to NON-Christians.
If I wanted to be a heretic when Christians were being killed, the last thing I’m going to do is call myself Christian!
Me the heretic: ‘No I’m not Christian! they think x, I think y!’
Soldier: ‘you keep your head…for the moment’
Now people can call themselves Christian and be perfectly comfortable in knowing they do not believe as other Christians.
The fact that this is not bothersome is troubling and will be addressed tomorrow when we consider #1.
Take care,
Mike
I think I should forcefully limit myself to one reply a day. As you understand I was for a long while the only active Protestant on this thread and thus getting all the various questions. And it became a catch 22 that I need to answer all without being accused of dodging questions. But I have been neglecting work and normal stuff. Sure everyone will understand. I will eventually get to everything in time.
The list of Popes are interesting and I have gone through maybe every single one in the past. Honestly I’m not sure what “new” I should take from it.
I see your questions on the creed again and I get to the understanding that maybe I wasn’t clear. The Creed was not established via the Authority of the Bishop of Rome. It was established via the 3 main leaders set up to lead on basis of faith in separate sees and jurisdictions laid out by the Roman Empire. Meaning asking “it’s interesting that you subscribe to the Creed developed under the 33rd pope (Bishop of Rome, if you like), but don’t find him to have Authority” is rather during the 33rd Bishop of Rome and not under him. So affirming from my side a Creed that was established by a large congregation who from different parts came together on equal footing as this was the church of the time, isn’t a problem for me (us). It doesn’t prove allegiance to Rome, if proves allegiance the findings of the entire council.
I do feel I answered the Luther or a reformation earlier question. I’m not an expert on Arius but I have a good knowledge of Constantine. We know of “Luthers” who happened earlier but we know how they were dealt with. I wouldn’t deny the extreme power and civil influence Rome had in the west until Luther. Luther happened in a different time, and when it happened, the exponential growth thereafter is also a point.
But that’s where I agree. It is still one. I can ask because Eastern Rite is different does that mean 2 (and more for the other different ones). But because they accept the Pope you are one now? How big should the difference be before we would say it’s 2? Christianity is one, we have 2 billion Christians in this world. Believers in Jesus Christ. (I’m pretty sure I’m gonna get numerous posts to this one alone)
I will let you address the final paragraph further before we continue
Take care
Michael
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ffg
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Hi Michael,Hi Mike
I think I should forcefully limit myself to one reply a day. As you understand I was for a long while the only active Protestant on this thread and thus getting all the various questions. And it became a catch 22 that I need to answer all without being accused of dodging questions. But I have been neglecting work and normal stuff. Sure everyone will understand. I will eventually get to everything in time.
But that’s where I agree. It is still one. I can ask because Eastern Rite is different does that mean 2 (and more for the other different ones). But because they accept the Pope you are one now? How big should the difference be before we would say it’s 2? Christianity is one, we have 2 billion Christians in this world. Believers in Jesus Christ. (I’m pretty sure I’m gonna get numerous posts to this one alone)
I will let you address the final paragraph further before we continue
Take care
Michael
It doesn’t bother me in the least if you respond or not, no pressure from this end. Conversations float away in forums all the time.
When they are active, it’s fun, but we all have our real world stuff to do.
Of which, I have to get cranking on.
I didn’t foresee our conversation for #2 being so fun, so I’ll probably punt on #1 until next week and get back to the above later today (maybe).
Take care,
mike
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Wannano
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My apologies, the battery went dead on my tablet, I guess I was ignoring the warnings. I think I need a new one.Both. One pretends to be church, and we pretend that they are
I think I understand the concept you are putting forward, but I am not sure that the word “pretend” is the right word to be applied to a group setting or action. Like you said in an earlier post sincere followers in a faith community. Not sure I can think of any group that is consciously pretending to be Christian. I do believe people can be sincerely wrong. I also believe that there are individuals in any church even the Catholic Church who are pretending to be Christian but don’t really believe. How to be loving and not judgemental? It is a tough question, especially in today’s world. When the disciples got disturbed that someone was casting out demons in Jesus’s name but was not part of their group, they wanted to make them stop. However Jesus said that if the guy was not against Him he was for Him. Can we accept Jesus’s teaching/response here or do we draw a circle around ourselves and claim exclusiveness.
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SyroMalankara
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It’s one thing to claim that we can control the Holy Spirit - we cannot. It’s an entirely different thing to claim, this is what we believe, where we share commonalities and where we differ. I did not “draw a circle around myself” or “claim exclusiveness”, I put forth a definition of “church” that many faith communities do not meet the criteria for.My apologies, the battery went dead on my tablet, I guess I was ignoring the warnings. I think I need a new one.
I think I understand the concept you are putting forward, but I am not sure that the word “pretend” is the right word to be applied to a group setting or action. Like you said in an earlier post sincere followers in a faith community. Not sure I can think of any group that is consciously pretending to be Christian. I do believe people can be sincerely wrong. I also believe that there are individuals in any church even the Catholic Church who are pretending to be Christian but don’t really believe. How to be loving and not judgemental? It is a tough question, especially in today’s world. When the disciples got disturbed that someone was casting out demons in Jesus’s name but was not part of their group, they wanted to make them stop. However Jesus said that if the guy was not against Him he was for Him. Can we accept Jesus’s teaching/response here or do we draw a circle around ourselves and claim exclusiveness.
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Wannano
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I am taking that definition to be post 103?It’s one thing to claim that we can control the Holy Spirit - we cannot. It’s an entirely different thing to claim, this is what we believe, where we share commonalities and where we differ. I did not “draw a circle around myself” or “claim exclusiveness”, I put forth a definition of “church” that many faith communities do not meet the criteria for.
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SyroMalankara
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correctI am taking that definition to be post 103?
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Wannano
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Unfortunately that leaves me outside…I have many friends in Catholic circles but they have never told me this, we seem to find common ground in our relationships with Jesus. Maybe they are just pretending? My faith is secure and I am not distressed because I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I’ve committed, unto Him against that day!correct
Gotta go golfing!
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