To Cardinal Newman said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."

[SyroMalankara]

Normally someone sincerely interested in Catholicism comes to the table without an aire of already knowing more than the entire Church. Usually those that are hostile, are already antiCatholic and a clear talking to leads them to the only self evaluation they will ever take. See Scott Hahn, Tim Staples for well known examples. My personal experience mirrors this. The unknowing individual genuinely is open minded and asks questions with the goal of gaining new understanding, a hostile one will already stand against the Catholic position. Someone who’d consider converting on their own may question a few details but not reject the entire history of the Western Church as made up Roman propaganda. This is especially true when using the examples of the East to show how the conspiracy theory version of history cannot be.
Heck, I was there at one point and firm direction proved fruitful for me and those I am personally aware of outside Internet fora.

Anyway, you don’t seem to care about hearing anything firmer than soft opposition or maybe just want outright agreement. So my final word, to the extent that every protestant church agrees with the Apostolic teaching (call it Catholic or Orthodox or Early Church or ancient or whatever), they are right. However, divergences from the Apostolic faith cannot be called genuine and any authority that comes up with false teaching mixed in with truth cannot be from Christ. Anyone that looks at Christian history without a preconception against Catholicism or Orthodoxy cannot but be lead in that direction.

 

[MichaelP3]

Normally someone sincerely interested in Catholicism comes to the table without an aire of already knowing more than the entire Church. Usually those that are hostile, are already antiCatholic and a clear talking to leads them to the only self evaluation they will ever take. See Scott Hahn, Tim Staples for well known examples. My personal experience mirrors this. The unknowing individual genuinely is open minded and asks questions with the goal of gaining new understanding, a hostile one will already stand against the Catholic position. Someone who’d consider converting on their own may question a few details but not reject the entire history of the Western Church as made up Roman propaganda. This is especially true when using the examples of the East to show how the conspiracy theory version of history cannot be.
Heck, I was there at one point and firm direction proved fruitful for me and those I am personally aware of outside Internet fora.

Anyway, you don’t seem to care about hearing anything firmer than soft opposition or maybe just want outright agreement. So my final word, to the extent that every protestant church agrees with the Apostolic teaching (call it Catholic or Orthodox or Early Church or ancient or whatever), they are right. However, divergences from the Apostolic faith cannot be called genuine and any authority that comes up with false teaching mixed in with truth cannot be from Christ. Anyone that looks at Christian history without a preconception against Catholicism or Orthodoxy cannot but be lead in that direction.

And I think that settles it (very clearly). Forgive me for ignoring your posts from this point forward on any thread (There are many ways I could/would structure my replies to you, I’m just afraid of getting banned). No point in discussing anything with you. I tried, I really tried in that last post I sent.

All the best and a happy life for you
Michael

BTW. I went very deep into Scott Hahn and Tim Staples. No stone left unturned. I wasn’t joking with over a 1000 hours.

 

[Peter_J]

I have learned a lot but I can honestly say nothing (If i did I can’t remember) from SyroMalankara. What I did learn is a better understanding of his personal thinking. And that is maybe good as it is a reason I am here.

Although I find him to get very “different” than other posters. This leads to his correspondence becoming fruitless and shrinking to a exchange of a simple “Well you are wrong, that’s just how it is” (Sometimes in a very tactfully or even direct sense) that I would like to avoid.

But yea, in the end my view isn’t changing. I had thousands of hours researching debates, arguments and counter arguments. A few posts won’t do it.

If you mean this sincerely and I hope you do. Maybe just listen for a second. Let us say I was actually wondering and looking into Catholicism with a possibility of conversion, responds like that (and many of the others) could not only turn me totally in the different direction, but it can make me very Anti-Catholic even. (I expected various such arguments and can in some way understand where it comes from. But I know this is not all Catholics) And I think Catholics and Protestants would agree thats even worse than the current situation.

I hear what you’re saying … and, conversely, I think that the same kinds of things, when done by protestants, might turn off a Catholic who is considering becoming Protestant.

But having said that, I think that if there’s one thing I’ve noticed more than anything else on the forum, it’s that some Protestant posters (I don’t know if you’re one of them, since I haven’t had much chance to observe you yet) really gravitate toward the very posts that offend them, whereas the more shall we say “ecumenically minded” posts tend to get little attention.

 

[MichaelP3]

I hear what you’re saying … and, conversely, I think that the same kinds, when done by protestants, of things might turn off a Catholic who is considering becoming Protestant.

But having said that, I think that if there’s one thing I’ve noticed more than anything else on the forum, it’s that some Protestant posters (I don’t know if you’re one of them, since I haven’t had much chance to observe you yet) really gravitate toward the very posts that offend them, whereas the more shall we say “ecumenically minded” posts tend to get little attention.

I agree. I have neglected the rest of the posters. I will move towards them now and rather ignore the offensive/pointless posts as stated in my previous reply.
Thanks for pointing this out, otherwise I am just wasting my time on this forum.

Regards

 

[Peter_J]

Anyway, you don’t seem to care about hearing anything firmer than soft opposition or maybe just want outright agreement.

Again here, I don’t know MP3 very well … but I do have to guess that if he wanted outright agreement, he wouldn’t be on a Catholic forum.

Edit: MP3, that’s not a hint that I want you to leave.

 

[MichaelP3]

Again here, I don’t know MP3 very well … but I do have to guess that if he wanted outright agreement, he wouldn’t be on a Catholic forum.

Edit: MP3, that’s not a hint that I want you to leave.

LOL, no worries. I’m not going anywhere.

 

[benhur]

I just spent an hour writing a reply and then lost it when trying to submit it. So I am accepting that maybe it wasn’t supposed to be given!

I will condense it to say that I have not changed any of my views but that my views are changing.

Been there, done that. If you are not sure, I open another tab under same topic, get a spot open to post in, then go back to my written reply, copy it, and paste on the other tab that is “fresh and open/logged into”. yeah, I have lost stuff because if you take to long you will get logged off. But it hasn’t happened in a long time because somehow I can log back in and back tab enough to my written ready to reply stuff.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Well, I guess since it offends some people when I use a traditional definition of Church as its defined, I may start using it in the popular sense so that the reader isnt just offended immediately and turned off. I guess my hardidentity views cause offense by responding with the unexpected view. Best to start looking elsewhere or maybe a different area.

Hi Syro,

What is the traditonal sense of the word to you ? To me, church = called out ones = ecclessia (where we get the word ‘church’ from). So to me any baptized believer (has been called out and testifies acceptance of that call in baptism) is part of the church. To bring one’s institution into it, is ok, but to often (not always) it is about justification of said institution. A bit like, “I am of Peter”, or, "I am of Pau"l. Quantitatively they were the same (in doctrine) but apparently to some not qualitatively (my baptizer/leader is better than yours). So the former use of church is ok for we do differ in doctrine , but not the latter so much.

To many I suppose the new meaning is, for an example, church = called out ones with a pope, and cardinals, and bishops over laity, or = called out ones with bishops and laity. To me, that the church has offices and some structure that we quibble over should not dictate who is in or what is the church. To me this the classical, original intent of Writs word “ecclesia”.

Blessings

 

[Tommy999]

Cardinal Newman said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” Why don’t more Protestant historians become Catholic?

This was a very interesting thing when I saw the apologist question and answer. It was in fact a very interesting thing. Let me explain quickly.

I grew up Protestant never really thinking about much or even Catholicism. Until I met my fiancee who was a very Polish Catholic. She was doing her bachelors in History and I love history. So obviously we got into it very deep. Long story short, today, 2 years later she is very Protestant and I can after going so deep into history, say, because of History, I can’t see myself becoming Catholic any time soon.

Can some people tell me maybe how history taught them otherwise. And please, we all know the basics, I mean in depth history that makes sense. I am not here to accuse anyone, I would just like to know some understandings.

Although I am not a historian nor can I hold a candle to many of you theologically, one appealing thing about Catholicism to me is that it claims historical ties to disciples through the early church fathers such as Clement (Phil 4:3) and Hermes (Romans 16:14). As a result, Catholicism claims a continuous uninterrupted connection to the New Testament church from a historical perspective. If that is true, perhaps that is part of what Cardinal Newman meant.

From the standpoint of logic, I can only surmise that Jesus wanted one Church and not so may factions that have cropped up since the Protestant Reformation who are teaching many different things and sometimes opposing doctrines – perhaps not on major tenets like the divinity of Christ and his atoning sacrifice at the cross, but on matters such as communion (real body and blood of Christ or symbol), how a Christian receives salvation, and the significance of baptism, to name a few.

Would Jesus want such confusion in Christendom from those who claim to love Him or would He want doctrinal and overall unity under one leadership structure? In my heart of hearts, I really think He meant us to be one, like it says in John 17:20-26.

So, from a historical and logical standpoint, I think Cardinal Newman was making an honest observation based on logic provided that I understand what he said correctly. At least that is how I see it at this point in my spiritual journey.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Syro,

What is the traditonal sense of the word to you ? To me, church = called out ones = ecclessia (where we get the word ‘church’ from).

“Called out ones” seems like a stretch to me. My understanding (also confirmed by Google) is that the root meant “assembly”.

 

[Tomyris]

“Called out ones” seems like a stretch to me. My understanding (also confirmed by Google) is that the root meant “assembly”.

Uh, no.

ek+kaleo: out+ call in Greek => ecclesia

syn+ago: with+ do/go/other things => synagogue, or assembly

 

[benhur]

“Called out ones” seems like a stretch to me. My understanding (also confirmed by Google) is that the root meant “assembly”.

OK, I can go with that, and I have read that . Whenever you had an assembly ( in Greece old times), you were called out, as in called to it, called to the meeting. I essence Jesus is assembling souls, is He not ? We are being called to an assembly, even a wedding.

Blessings

 

[Peter_J]

Uh, no.

ek+kaleo: out+ call in Greek => ecclesia

syn+ago: with+ do/go/other things => synagogue, or assembly

OK, I can go with that, and I have read that . Whenever you had an assembly ( in Greece old times), you were called out, as in called to it, called to the meeting. I essence Jesus is assembling souls, is He not ? We are being called to an assembly, even a wedding.

Blessings

Yes, that makes sense.

 

[benhur]

Yes, that makes sense.

Thanks Pete (and Tom). Good way to end the night. And everybody said ,“Amen!”

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks Pete (and Tom). Good way to end the night. And everybody said ,“Amen!”

What am I, Christian or something?

Oh wait …

 

[Faithdancer]

Interesting quote, and it could lead the uninformed that Newman was originally a Protestant. Of course, he wasn’t and in fact not only was he an Anglican, but a very high church, Anglo-Catholic type Anglican, before he joined the Roman Catholic Church. He was never a Protestant.

 

[GKC]

Interesting quote, and it could lead the uninformed that Newman was originally a Protestant. Of course, he wasn’t and in fact not only was he an Anglican, but a very high church, Anglo-Catholic type Anglican, before he joined the Roman Catholic Church. He was never a Protestant.

This is the sort of thing that folks like unto thee and me say. Concurrence is not universal, usually, in these environs.

 

[Hatikvah]

An Orthodox church member may say, “To be Catholic is to cease to be a member of the True Church.”

 

[spedteacherita]

The Episcopal/Anglican churches profess both creeds. Not sure about the Lutheran churches or other mainline churches - like Methodist or Presbyterian.

We (LCMS) use both creeds in our services. We also use the Athanasion Creed on Trinity Sunday. Not sure about other denominations.

 

[Birdpreacher]

TO be deep in World History is to be Agnostic.

Once you see that religion is just mankind’s attempt to bring meaning into a meaningless world, you begin to see that all cultures are playing the same song over and over again:

“Listen to Me”
“Shun the Outsiders”
“Authority flows from MY truth”
“Be Civilized as I define it”