To Cardinal Newman said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."

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Rohzek said:
Anyone with knowledge of classical languages knows that capitalization and spaces is a modern thing. The terms “Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and x-Protestant Church” didn’t come about as proper nouns until the Protestant Reformation. Each referred to themselves as catholic and orthodox. Outsiders were simply called heretics, or a specific heresy, or schismatics. This proper noun business is something of an English and modern fabrication that was done during the translation process to make it easier for the reader.
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But it should also be pointed out that people aren’t consistent about it. For example, Anglicans are “catholic” but they’re “Protestant”. It would make more sense to say “they’re catholic and protestant” but that just isn’t the convention.
 
steve_b said:
Yes I read.

This is what you said, and I was asking you for your source. #[274 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14188972&postcount=274)

Specifically, you said
  • "The terms “Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and x-Protestant Church” didn’t come about as proper nouns until the Protestant Reformation."
AND
  • This proper noun business is something of an English and modern fabrication that was done during the translation process to make it easier for the reader.
  • Do you see why I’m asking you for your source for that?
You do realize that “noun” comes from the Latin word nōmen*, literally meaning “name”

You said there were no proper names until the Protestant revolt.

Show me your source for that

All your nastiness and insults aside, you didn’t answer my question. You didn’t give your source for your statements
  • "The terms “Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and x-Protestant Church” didn’t come about as proper nouns until the Protestant Reformation."
AND
  • This proper noun business is something of an English and modern fabrication that was done during the translation process to make it easier for the reader.
You didn’t answer that. *
*

No you didn’t

You didn’t answer the question. All you did was hurl insults
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It is pretty obvious that you didn’t read. I did answer the question. Again, its in the OED when those terms are used as proper nouns for churches. Do you know how the OED works? Would you like me to explain it to you? The OED doesn’t work like your typical dictionary. It gives historical accounts and examples of when first words were used in certain ways.

As for nomen and name, I’m well aware thank you. I’m highly proficient in Latin, so unlike you I know the difference between an adjective and a proper noun.
 
Peter_J said:
But it should also be pointed out that people aren’t consistent about it. For example, Anglicans are “catholic” but they’re “Protestant”. It would make more sense to say “they’re catholic and protestant” but that just isn’t the convention.
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Actually, you have just explained something I’ve always wondered about–many Anglo-Catholic writers did/do use “protestant” and “catholic” both lowercase.
 
Contarini said:
Actually, you have just explained something I’ve always wondered about–many Anglo-Catholic writers did/do use “protestant” and “catholic” both lowercase.
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I say “Catholic”.

No one need emulate me.
 
Rohzek said:
It is pretty obvious that you didn’t read. I did answer the question. Again, its in the OED when those terms are used as proper nouns for churches. Do you know how the OED works? Would you like me to explain it to you? The OED doesn’t work like your typical dictionary. It gives historical accounts and examples of when first words were used in certain ways.

As for nomen and name, I’m well aware thank you. I’m highly proficient in Latin, so unlike you I know the difference between an adjective and a proper noun.
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Then you know your following statements ( I highlighted) are wrong (I’m naturally focusing on “Catholic Church”)
  • "*The terms "**Catholic Church, *Orthodox Church, and x-Protestant Church" didn’t come about as proper nouns until the Protestant Reformation."
AND
  • This proper noun business is something of an English and modern fabrication that was done during the translation process to make it easier for the reader.
Catholic Church as a proper name is hardly some modern fabrication
 
steve_b said:
Then you know your following statements ( I highlighted) are wrong (I’m naturally focusing on “Catholic Church”)
  • “*The terms “**Catholic Church, ***Orthodox Church, and x-Protestant Church” didn’t come about as proper nouns until the Protestant Reformation.”
AND
  • This proper noun business is something of an English and modern fabrication that was done during the translation process to make it easier for the reader.
Catholic Church as a proper name is hardly some modern fabrication
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Hi Mr Steve B.

I have been following this linguistic debate for a while. Although it seems you are pretty certain of your point, I just want to ask, even if you are right, what is it suppose to prove?

PS. It seems even you Catholic brethren are wondering?
 
MichaelP3 said:
Hi Mr Steve B.

I have been following this linguistic debate for a while.
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This is way more than just linguistics.
M:
even if you are right, what is it suppose to prove?
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That the statements were wrong
M:
PS. It seems even you Catholic brethren are wondering?
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THEY (whoever they are) could certainly answer THE question being asked as well…true?

I’m focusing just on “Catholic Church”

True or false,
  • "The term “Catholic Church,-]Orthodox Church, and x-Protestant Church/-]” didn’t come about as proper noun until the Protestant Reformation."
AND
  • This proper noun business is something of an English and modern fabrication that was done during the translation process to make it easier for the reader.
Is the name Catholic Church a modern fabrication by translators?
 
Contarini said:
Actually, you have just explained something I’ve always wondered about–many Anglo-Catholic writers did/do use “protestant” and “catholic” both lowercase.
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👍

Some (I think Fr Hart is an example) write “Protestant and Catholic”. I’m not sure I can approve of that practice – doesn’t Catholic, capitalized and without a qualifier like “Anglo-” imply that you’re in communion with Rome (ICWR)? – but at least it has consistency.
 
Peter_J said:
👍

Some (I think Fr Hart is an example) write “Protestant and Catholic”. I’m not sure I can approve of that practice – doesn’t Catholic, capitalized and without a qualifier like “Anglo-” imply that you’re in communion with Rome (ICWR)? – but at least it has consistency.
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For some folk it certainly implies, nay, defines Catholicity. For others, not so much.
 
GKC said:
For some folk it certainly implies, nay, defines Catholicity. For others, not so much.
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Hence, RE: “some vs others”, Newman embarks on a massive amount of writings defending Catholicism, and the “Catholic Church”
Apart from the Apologia and the Autobiographical Writings, there are more than 20,000 letters extant, which, together with the diaries, will eventually fill 31 volumes. The corpus published, including posthumous works, runs well over 40 volumes. The biographer of Newman . . . may well feel overwhelmed by the agonizing difficulty of selecting and distilling. (vii)
Given that, this article will discuss what he is best known for: his capacity to explain and defend Catholicism. Those who take the time to read through his “over 40 volumes” of work, will, I suggest, find it very difficult not to follow him into the Church.
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from: The Triumph of Truth
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Given your massive library Jim, I’ll bet you have most of this material, … and probably many are personally signed 😃
 
steve_b said:
Hence, RE: “some vs others”, Newman embarks on a massive amount of writings defending Catholicism, and the “Catholic Church”

Given your massive library Jim, I’ll bet you have most of this material, … and probably many are personally signed 😃
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You do me much honor.

A little too much.

I do have signed Chesterton and Belloc.
 
Jumping in very far along here, apologies if anyone else addressed this but–
was Cardinal Newman specifically referring to Anglicans with this quote? Because Anglicans are via media, not Protestant. And some Anglicans would say that Anglicans are far more “Catholic” than “Protestant.”
The upshot is, the cardinal’s quote doesn’t bother me at all, since it doesn’t apply to me.
 
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