To Forgive, or Not to Forgive?

[You]

Are they not one and the same? I mean, when we pray,

“Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

(Matthew 6:12)

Doesn’t the word *as *mean in the same way? Are we not praying that God will forgive us the very same way we forgive others? or do you think the word as, in this case, carries a different meaning?

Because I am not God I cannot forgive sins or trespasses as He does. Whereas He can see into the heart and soul of a person He will forgive the contrite heart when He sees it.
The forgiveness I offer is different in that I cannot see the true motives of any person and I obviously cannot forgive sins as He does. But I can forgive in the same manner [if you were an artist you would say ‘after’] as He does, 70 times 7 times. And because I cannot see into the heart and soul of a person then that does not matter for my human type of forgiveness. Whereas God cannot help but see the truth of a soul asking forgiveness [thats what you call ‘conditions’], I as a human cannot help not being able to see the truth of a persons heart or soul, but I can still forgive as He does even without knowing All Truth as He does. That is, I think, how I understand it.

 

[spockrates]

Remember, we’re using the language of analogy and metaphor. When speaking about God, this never fits perfectly. It’s like saying that God is angry, sad, hurt. The truth is that he’s not. God does not experience anything but eternal happiness…

I do appreciate your trying to help me understand, JR, but I fear I’m still not doing a good job thus far. You see, from what I understand, Jesus is God. So are you saying these were tears of joy?

32 When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33 When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34 “Where have you laid him?” he asked.

“Come and see, Lord,” they replied.

35 Jesus wept.

36 Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

(John 6)

 

[spockrates]

… When we say that God will judge us as we judge others, it’s analoguous. The best way to say it, if it can be said, 'leave the judging of people to God". God has revealed to us what is right and wrong. We can judge that, because we know what God has said.

God has not revealed to any of us what he thinks of you or me or the person next to you, regardless of what you do or not do. Don’t try to pretend that you know.
I
As I keep saying, this is a way of life. Why? Because we do this all the time. We have to on guard through our whole life to catch ourselves playing God.

The best advice that I can give you is to find a good spiritual director and do what he or she tells you to do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

At the moment, you are the most qualified one I know to be a spiritual adviser. I mean, how can I forgive if I don’t know what forgiveness is? and who better to teach me the true nature of forgiveness than an expert teacher like yourself? Once you teach me what forgiveness is, then I’ll know how to forgive, and I’ll know what spiritual adviser to trust. For only a spiritual adviser who knows the real essence of forgiveness like yourself will be someone to whom I should listen.

So I sincerely ask that you forgive my lack of understanding, and be patient with my slowness to learn, and treat me as you would a student who is having great difficulty and requires tutoring after class.



Since I’m having trouble understanding what you say in theory, perhaps it will help me to learn by example. Please consider this:

I think you (or perhaps another helpful teacher, here) mentioned that Jesus prayed when suffering on the cross for his executioners:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

From that I get the idea that it is right to forgive those who sin in ignorance, for they are not culpable for their actions. Now let’s say there is a person who refuses to forgive a relative of yours who sins against her, even though she knows that your relative sinned in ignorance and had no idea that what she was doing was morally wrong. However, this person has never heard Jesus’ last words from the cross, and has no idea that it is wrong to withhold forgiveness when the person who sinned does not know she sinned. Would it then be morally right for you to refuse to forgive the one who withheld forgiveness, even though he clearly did not know what he was doing? or do you think, as I do, that two wrongs do not make a right?

 

[spockrates]

Because I am not God I cannot forgive sins or trespasses as He does. Whereas He can see into the heart and soul of a person He will forgive the contrite heart when He sees it.
The forgiveness I offer is different in that I cannot see the true motives of any person and I obviously cannot forgive sins as He does. But I can forgive in the same manner [if you were an artist you would say ‘after’] as He does, 70 times 7 times. And because I cannot see into the heart and soul of a person then that does not matter for my human type of forgiveness. Whereas God cannot help but see the truth of a soul asking forgiveness [thats what you call ‘conditions’], I as a human cannot help not being able to see the truth of a persons heart or soul, but I can still forgive as He does even without knowing All Truth as He does. That is, I think, how I understand it.

Yes, that makes sense. Thank you, You!



I suppose we might say the same of Jesus’ words here:

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

(John 13:34)

Here the word *as *cannot possibly mean in the same way, for we cannot possibly love as flawlessly and fully as God loves us! In this case, the word *as *must then mean because. In effect, what Jesus is saying is this:

“[Because] I have loved you, you must love one another.”

So too the word *as *in Jesus’ words,

“Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

cannot mean in the same way, as you pointed out. Instead, it must mean,

“Forgive us our trespasses, [because] we forgive those who trespass against us.”

or perhaps it means,

“Forgive us our trespasses [as a result of our forgiving] those who trespass against us.”

In other words, God usually forgives only those who are forgiving. Does this ring true to you too, You?

 

[You]

Yes, that makes sense. Thank you, You!



I suppose we might say the same of Jesus’ words here:

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

(John 13:34)

Here the word *as *cannot possibly mean in the same way, for we cannot possibly love as flawlessly and fully as God loves us! In this case, the word *as *must then mean because. In effect, what Jesus is saying is this:

“[Because] I have loved you, you must love one another.”

So too the word *as *in Jesus’ words,

“Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

cannot mean in the same way, as you pointed out. Instead, it must mean,

“Forgive us our trespasses, [because] we forgive those who trespass against us.”

or perhaps it means,

“Forgive us our trespasses [as a result of our forgiving] those who trespass against us.”

In other words, God usually forgives only those who are forgiving. Does this ring true to you too, You?

You would have to raise the question of how you are able to forgive. Is it in any way a result of knowing Divine forgiveness and Christianity in general and its full meaning which allows you to forgive as He does?

God usually forgives only those who are forgiving.

Why and how can they be forgiving?

 

[JReducation]

I do appreciate your trying to help me understand, JR, but I fear I’m still not doing a good job thus far. You see, from what I understand, Jesus is God. So are you saying these were tears of joy?

32 When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33 When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34 “Where have you laid him?” he asked.

“Come and see, Lord,” they replied.

35 Jesus wept.

36 Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

(John 6)

This is a very different situation. Jesus has two natures: human and divine.

His human nature is just like our own in everything but sin. He’s goind to feel sadness and fear. Look at the agony in the garden. His divine nature is does not experience sadness and fear. The two natures are both in one person, but they are not blended like food coloring and water.

This is another analogy, but it may help. Thinkof an Oreo. There are two chocolae cookies and sugar cream in the middle. If you take away either the cookie or the cream, POOF! no Oreo. So you cannot separate them or the Oreal ceases to exist. Jesus two natures would be something like this. If you separate them, he’s not Jesus. the God-Man.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[EricFilmer]

It seems that we should imitate God in all acts of love, including in the way we show forgiveness and mercy. Still I have to wonder how this is even possible. Consider Jesus’ words:

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

(Matthew 5:48)

I mean, nobody is perfect, right? Isn’t it simply impossible to be as perfect as God?

It is certainly impossible for human nature to be the equal of divine nature, and God does not instruct us to do the impossible. Therefore, I think the commandment here is not “be God” but rather “strive to do things God’s way in a virtuous manner.” And we cannot be like God apart from God. By doing things in conjunction with God, his power is able to fill in what is lacking on our part. Along these lines, I think what I stated in Post #42 is still applicable: “So I think this all has to do with the idea of ‘putting on Christ’. If we want our mercy/forgiveness to be that of God, we need to do it in union with Christ. He provides the divine power to perfect our limited human capacity. By myself, the pursuit of any virtue (including the Spiritual Work of Mercy to forgive others) will fall short. But when done in the name of Christ my work of mercy is open to the divine power of Christ, and in this sense I can be merciful as the Father is merciful.”

 

[spockrates]

You would have to raise the question of how you are able to forgive.

Perhaps, but we don’t have to raise that question to know that what Spock said is true:

If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (no matter how improbable) must be the truth.

It appears that you and I have eliminated the possibility that Jesus’ words meant this:

“Forgive us our trespasses [in the same way] we forgive those who trespass against us.”

Is it in any way a result of knowing Divine forgiveness and Christianity in general and its full meaning which allows you to forgive as He does?

Maybe it is, but it seems to me that those who are not Catholic, such as Gandhi, Buddha, and Muhammad, were often as forgiving as those the Church holds as saints. If knowing the Divine Forgiveness is a prerequisite for forgiving, then one would have to say that these men knew such.

Why and how can they be forgiving?

Good questions! I’d say that all forgiveness is love, but not all love is forgiveness. That is, forgiveness is a form, or kind, or type, or category of love. For we can love those we don’t need to forgive (such as Jesus), but we cannot forgive those we do not love, as to forgive (it seems to me) is an act of love. So to ask the question, “Why forgive?” is to ask the question, “Why love?” I believe Saint John the Apostle has the answer:

We love because he first loved us.

(1 John 4:19)

Having been forgiven so much by Jesus, how can I not want to forgive others as He forgave me? To not forgive would be unthinkable.

That’s the answer to the why question, now for the how. I’m thinking that we forgive by loving, since forgiveness is love. But when I ask the offender, “How do I love thee?” I suppose I should count the ways, and determine the specific way that is appropriate and right and most perfect for the given situation. The ways to forgive several in this discussion thread have mentioned. I’ve been keeping count, and making a list, and checking it twice. It might not be complete, but here it is:

We forgive by . . .

1. 
   *]overlooking an offense
   *]not holding a grudge
   *]not seeking revenge
   *]pardoning a person for the wrong done
   *]establishing or restoring a relationship with the one who committed the wrong
   *]treating the wrongdoer as if she had done no wrong
   
   I’d say that this list is one of degrees, as the higher the number of the list item, the greater the degree of forgiveness. For to forgive, for example, in the sense of (5) is a much greater degree of love than to forgive merely in the sense of (2).
   
   This list, I think, helps the dialog a great deal, for there are some who tell me one must always (without exception) forgive, but when pressed to explain how to always forgive, they consent to (1), (2) and (3), but not to (4), (5), or (6). There are others who tell me we must forgive only those who repent, but when pressed to explain how to forgive only the repentant, I find they are speaking of (4), (5), or (6), but not necessarily of (1), (2), and (3).
   
   So the answer to the question, “How do I forgive?” is this: Forgive to the degree that is appropriate to the offender, and according the will and example of Christ given in Sacred Scripture. Now here is the next (and thought-provoking) question: Jesus said,
   
   “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
   
   (John 13:34-35)
   
   God loves the saints by forgiving them, and we all want to be forgiven by God in the sense of (6), so should we not seek to forgive others, if possible, in the same way? Shouldn’t our goal be to establish or restore a relationship with our offender and treat her as though she had never sinned?

 

[spockrates]

This, I think, is the most loving and perfect forgiveness, and the Divine way that God Himself forgives, if only we will let Him.

 

[spockrates]

This is a very different situation. Jesus has two natures: human and divine.

His human nature is just like our own in everything but sin. He’s goind to feel sadness and fear. Look at the agony in the garden. His divine nature is does not experience sadness and fear. The two natures are both in one person, but they are not blended like food coloring and water.

This is another analogy, but it may help. Thinkof an Oreo. There are two chocolae cookies and sugar cream in the middle. If you take away either the cookie or the cream, POOF! no Oreo. So you cannot separate them or the Oreal ceases to exist. Jesus two natures would be something like this. If you separate them, he’s not Jesus. the God-Man.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Perhaps you are correct, but I don’t yet see why. Notice the response of those who saw Jesus cry:

Jesus wept.

Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!"

(John 11:35-36)

John elsewhere tells us:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

(1 John 4:8)

To say that God is love, I’m thinking, is to say that God possesses and expresses everything that love is. Love is (at least in part) an emotion. So doesn’t this mean that God possesses and expresses emotion?

 

[spockrates]

It is certainly impossible for human nature to be the equal of divine nature, and God does not instruct us to do the impossible. Therefore, I think the commandment here is not “be God” but rather “strive to do things God’s way in a virtuous manner.”

I’m not so sure. It seems to me that the word *be *does NOT mean become. Be means one is now. Become means one will be.

When Jesus commanded the waves, “Peace; be still!” He was not telling the storm to strive to lessen in intensity over time, but was commanding it to be, at that moment, calm; and the storm obeyed. So when Jesus commands us to “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect,” isn’t He commanding the same of us?

Since *be *cannot possibly carry the same meaning as become, and since it is impossible to be as perfect as God, then the word *as *must be the key to understanding Him. Rather than saying,

“Be perfect [in the same way that] your heavenly Father is perfect.”

He must instead be saying,

“Be [humanly] perfect [because] your heavenly Father is [Divinely] perfect.”

For there are times, I think, when we can be as perfect as we can be (with God’s help), though never consistently (without fail) and never as perfect as God Himself. Don’t you agree?

 

[spockrates]

And we cannot be like God apart from God. By doing things in conjunction with God, his power is able to fill in what is lacking on our part.

Agreed!

Along these lines, I think what I stated in Post #42 is still applicable: “So I think this all has to do with the idea of ‘putting on Christ’. If we want our mercy/forgiveness to be that of God, we need to do it in union with Christ. He provides the divine power to perfect our limited human capacity. By myself, the pursuit of any virtue (including the Spiritual Work of Mercy to forgive others) will fall short. But when done in the name of Christ my work of mercy is open to the divine power of Christ, and in this sense I can be merciful as the Father is merciful.”

I’ve been wanting to ask you about that, Eric. Isn’t it true that being forgiving is not the same as being merciful? It seems to me that mercy is not the same as forgiveness, for a judge who does not forgive the crime of the guilty can still show mercy by giving him a less harsh punishment for the crime.

 

[You]

Perhaps, but we don’t have to raise that question to know that what Spock said is true:

If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains (no matter how improbable) must be the truth.

It appears that you and I have eliminated the possibility that Jesus’ words meant this:

“Forgive us our trespasses [in the same way] we forgive those who trespass against us.”

Maybe it is, but it seems to me that those who are not Catholic, such as Gandhi, Buddha, and Muhammad, were often as forgiving as those the Church holds as saints. If knowing the Divine Forgiveness is a prerequisite for forgiving, then one would have to say that these men knew such.

Good questions! I’d say that all forgiveness is love, but not all love is forgiveness. That is, forgiveness is a form, or kind, or type, or category of love. For we can love those we don’t need to forgive (such as Jesus), but we cannot forgive those we do not love, as to forgive (it seems to me) is an act of love. So to ask the question, “Why forgive?” is to ask the question, “Why love?” I believe Saint John the Apostle has the answer:

We love because he first loved us.

(1 John 4:19)

Having been forgiven so much by Jesus, how can I not want to forgive others as He forgave me? To not forgive would be unthinkable.

That’s the answer to the why question, now for the how. I’m thinking that we forgive by loving, since forgiveness is love. But when I ask the offender, “How do I love thee?” I suppose I should count the ways, and determine the specific way that is appropriate and right and most perfect for the given situation. The ways to forgive several in this discussion thread have mentioned. I’ve been keeping count, and making a list, and checking it twice. It might not be complete, but here it is:

We forgive by . . .

1. 
   *]overlooking an offense
   *]not holding a grudge
   *]not seeking revenge
   *]pardoning a person for the wrong done
   *]establishing or restoring a relationship with the one who committed the wrong
   *]treating the wrongdoer as if she had done no wrong
   
   I’d say that this list is one of degrees, as the higher the number of the list item, the greater the degree of forgiveness. For to forgive, for example, in the sense of (5) is a much greater degree of love than to forgive merely in the sense of (2).
   
   This list, I think, helps the dialog a great deal, for there are some who tell me one must always (without exception) forgive, but when pressed to explain how to always forgive, they consent to (1), (2) and (3), but not to (4), (5), or (6). There are others who tell me we must forgive only those who repent, but when pressed to explain how to forgive only the repentant, I find they are speaking of (4), (5), or (6), but not necessarily of (1), (2), and (3).
   
   So the answer to the question, “How do I forgive?” is this: Forgive to the degree that is appropriate to the offender, and according the will and example of Christ given in Sacred Scripture. Now here is the next (and thought-provoking) question: Jesus said,
   
   “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
   
   (John 13:34-35)
   
   God loves the saints by forgiving them, and we all want to be forgiven by God in the sense of (6), so should we not seek to forgive others, if possible, in the same way? Shouldn’t our goal be to establish or restore a relationship with our offender and treat her as though she had never sinned?

1. 
   A few points;
   0. She might not want a relationship with you if you were a stranger to her.
   1. I think it was Sherlock who said it.
   2. In the example Christ gave it was the Boss who first forgave his servant, who then failed to forgive his fellow servant. But the way you said it you say the servant must first forgive the fellow servant before the Boss will forgive him.
   3. Einstein said he would fall off his bicycle if he tried to cycle around a bend while keeping in mind all the relevant laws of physics.
   4. I like the simplicity of the line; … freely have you received, freely give.

 

[JReducation]

Perhaps you are correct, but I don’t yet see why. Notice the response of those who saw Jesus cry:

Jesus wept.

Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!"

(John 11:35-36)

John elsewhere tells us:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

(1 John 4:8)

To say that God is love, I’m thinking, is to say that God possesses and expresses everything that love is. Love is (at least in part) an emotion. So doesn’t this mean that God possesses and expresses emotion?

Love is an act of the will. Emotion is a human act, but not of the will. Emotions spring up spontaneously. They are part of being human. God is not human. Jesus was human. Through the union of Divinity and Humanity he is able to experience and express human emotions. They remain human, not divine emotions.

What John is speaking about is the will to love. We must choose to love. That means that we must do what is good for the other and pleasing to the other even when it’s not pleasing to us.

Francis of Assisi wrote in our admonitions something on obedience that addresses this.

**The Lord says in the Gospel: he “that doth not renounce all that he possesseth cannot be” a "disciple " and “he that will save his life, shall lose it.”

That man leaves all he possesses and loses his body and his soul who abandons himself wholly to obedience in the hands of his superior, and whatever he does and says—provided he himself knows that what he does is good and not contrary to his [the superior’s] will—is true obedience.

And if at times a subject sees things which would be better or more useful to his soul than those which the superior commands him, let him sacrifice his will to God, let him strive to fulfill the work enjoined by the superior. This is true and loving obedience which is pleasing to God and to one’s neighbor.**

As you can see from Francis’ explanation of the scriptures and his mandate to his brothers and sisters, real love is not always doing what comes easy. Real love sometimes means doing what someone else wants, even when we know that there is something better for us. Love is a choice. It’s not a choice that one makes once for eternity. It has to be made over and over again. Because we’re going to be asked to do the difficult thing many times.

If we’re talking about forgiving, forgiving is not easy. It does not always come naturally. Sometimes our emotions will get in the way. We have act contrary to those emotions. Our emotions will tell us to refuse to love and to refuse to forgive.

That’s why God is free of emotions. There is nothing tempting God to refuse love or forgiveness. Jesus, on the other hand, because he was human, was tempted. The Gospels tell us this. He was tempted through the emotions. The devil used human emotions to tempt him. What Jesus showed us was that he could choose to act contrary to those emotions. He chose to act according to the will of the Father.

We see Jesus’ emotions again in the garden. He is afraid. He asks the Father to let him off the hook. But then he surrenders to the Father’s will. His human fear does not just evaporate. It’s there, but he acts according to the will of the Father, not according to his fear. Again, we see a choice being made.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[spockrates]

A few points;
0. She might not want a relationship with you if you were a stranger to her.

True, but should that keep one from trying? Does someone not wanting a relationship with Jesus keep Him from trying? It seems to me we should, as Saint Paul wrote:

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

(Ephesians 5:1-2)

1. I think it was Sherlock who said it.

This quote from Start Trek the Undiscovered Country (1991 AD) sheds light on whether Sir Arthur Conan Doyle or Spock’s ancestor should rightly claim to have coined the phrase first:

[Watching a replay of the torpedo hit]
Commander Pavel Chekov: It is Enterprise. We fired.
Captain Montgomery ‘Scotty’ Scott: That is not possible! All weapons visually accounted for, sir.
Captain Spock: An ancestor of mine maintained that when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. If we did not fire those torpedoes, another ship did.

Lieutenant Valeris: A bird of prey?
Captain Spock: A bird of prey.
Commander Pavel Chekov: Cloaked?
Captain Montgomery ‘Scotty’ Scott: A bird of prey cannot open fire when it’s cloaked!
Captain Spock: All things being equal, Mr. Scott, I would agree with you. All things, however, are not equal. This one can.

Since Spock’s ancestors were exploring outer space when Conan’s ancestors were still living in caves and hunting mastodons with flint-tipped spears, I’d say Vulcans (rather than humans) get the bragging rights for being the first to come up with that bit of wisdom.

1. In the example Christ gave it was the Boss who first forgave his servant, who then failed to forgive his fellow servant. But the way you said it you say the servant must first forgive the fellow servant before the Boss will forgive him.

True, but remember what you (or was it another in this discussion thread?) said: God knows all, so He forgives differently. One might say that God forgives all we’ve done before we’ve even done it, for, as David sang:

Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.

(Psalm 139:4)

Since God knows our sins beforehand, and beforehand knows whether or not we will repent and ask forgiveness, one might say that (as far as He is concerned) we are forgiven before we even sin. This might be why Saint Paul writes to the young priest:

…God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time… .

(2 Timothy 1:8-9)

1. Einstein said he would fall off his bicycle if he tried to cycle around a bend while keeping in mind all the relevant laws of physics.

And Socrates said people laughed at him for being so heavenly minded (and lost in thought) that he didn’t pay attention to where he was going and was in danger of falling into a hole in the ground! He said philosophers seem foolish to those who think they should not waste their time thinking about truth and virtue and God, but such people change their tune once they engage in dialog and see how little they really know and how much they have to learn and how their eternal destiny rests on knowing what they do not know.

1. I like the simplicity of the line; … freely have you received, freely give.

Yes, you and I should give freely, and love others as much as we love ourselves. Indeed, and I should, as Jesus said:

“Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.”

(Luke 6:27-28)

There’s no questioning that we should freely give love and forgiveness. That we should forgive is not what I’m wondering. How we should forgive is. For example, Jesus says,

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

and this raises the question: How should I forgive someone who refuses to repent? It’s an extremely practical question, and those who are heavenly minded enough to find the answer are the most likely to do the world some good.

 

[spockrates]

How should I forgive the one who simply will not repent of her sin?

1. overlooking an offense
2. not holding a grudge
3. not seeking revenge
4. pardoning a person for the wrong done
5. establishing or restoring a relationship with the one who committed the wrong
6. treating the wrongdoer as if she had done no wrong
7. trust her completely to not commit the sin again

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Can the forgiveness of sins hang and depend on the Greatest Commandments?

When Jesus spent his ttime here on Earth he would have lived by the greatest commandments.

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

When the people of Jerusalem shouted, crucify him; did Jesus forgive them, in order that he should still love them as he loved himself? When the soldiers scourged him, and nailed him to the cross, did he forgive them?
It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. After his resurrection does the divine nature of Jesus, follow his human nature? When Jesus ascended into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each and every one of us as he loves himself?

We are told that the greatest response to any situation, is to love that person as we love ourselves.

Some thoughts to ponder on.

Blessings

Eric

 

[centurionguard]

Can the forgiveness of sins hang and depend on the Greatest Commandments?

When Jesus spent his time here on Earth he would have lived by the greatest commandments.

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

When the people of Jerusalem shouted, crucify him; did Jesus forgive them, in order that he should still love them as he loved himself? When the soldiers scourged him, and nailed him to the cross, did he forgive them?
It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. After his resurrection does the divine nature of Jesus, follow his human nature? When Jesus ascended into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each and every one of us as he loves himself?

We are told that the greatest response to any situation, is to love that person as we love ourselves.

Some thoughts to ponder on.

Blessings

Eric

Excellent Point!

If Jesus the Son of Almighty God In the Mystery of the Holy Trinity can do this, We should be required to do no less.

I think too we should all be able take a lesson from the story of the Prodigal Son.

Peace
Chris

 

[spockrates]

Love is an act of the will. Emotion is a human act, but not of the will. Emotions spring up spontaneously. They are part of being human. God is not human. Jesus was human. Through the union of Divinity and Humanity he is able to experience and express human emotions. They remain human, not divine emotions.

JR:

Sorry for taking so long to respond. Work and family kept me away.

Regarding what you say, I can think of one applicable response: Fascinating! For what you appear to be saying is, that when it comes to feeling and expressing compassion, God the Father has more in common with the emotionless Spock than with Jesus!

What John is speaking about is the will to love. We must choose to love. That means that we must do what is good for the other and pleasing to the other even when it’s not pleasing to us.

Francis of Assisi wrote in our admonitions something on obedience that addresses this.

**The Lord says in the Gospel: he “that doth not renounce all that he possesseth cannot be” a "disciple " and “he that will save his life, shall lose it.”

That man leaves all he possesses and loses his body and his soul who abandons himself wholly to obedience in the hands of his superior, and whatever he does and says—provided he himself knows that what he does is good and not contrary to his [the superior’s] will—is true obedience.

And if at times a subject sees things which would be better or more useful to his soul than those which the superior commands him, let him sacrifice his will to God, let him strive to fulfill the work enjoined by the superior. This is true and loving obedience which is pleasing to God and to one’s neighbor**.

As you can see from Francis’ explanation of the scriptures and his mandate to his brothers and sisters, real love is not always doing what comes easy. Real love sometimes means doing what someone else wants, even when we know that there is something better for us. Love is a choice. It’s not a choice that one makes once for eternity. It has to be made over and over again. Because we’re going to be asked to do the difficult thing many times.

Yes, I have no doubt that love is an action, but I still wonder why it’s impossible for it to also be compassion. Since it is both in us, why could it not also be both in God? If it is not both in God, then should we not make every effort to suppress feelings of compassion in us and love with a compassionless love like God? After all, Saint Paul the Apostle tells us:

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

(Ephesians 5:1-2)

If Paul is speaking of imitating God in the way God loves, then doesn’t that mean we should love without emotion and without compassion? Any compassionate love would be unlike God’s love, and so ungodly. Would it not?

If we’re talking about forgiving, forgiving is not easy. It does not always come naturally. Sometimes our emotions will get in the way. We have act contrary to those emotions. Our emotions will tell us to refuse to love and to refuse to forgive.

That’s why God is free of emotions. There is nothing tempting God to refuse love or forgiveness. Jesus, on the other hand, because he was human, was tempted. The Gospels tell us this. He was tempted through the emotions. The devil used human emotions to tempt him. What Jesus showed us was that he could choose to act contrary to those emotions. He chose to act according to the will of the Father.

We see Jesus’ emotions again in the garden. He is afraid. He asks the Father to let him off the hook. But then he surrenders to the Father’s will. His human fear does not just evaporate. It’s there, but he acts according to the will of the Father, not according to his fear. Again, we see a choice being made.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I’ll say it again–fascinating! This concept is new to me, so please forgive me for being cautious about accepting it without first considering it carefully. Speaking of Jesus, one act of forgiving those He had cause to hate was witnessed during His crucifixion. I’m sure you recall that, while suffering on the cross, He prayed:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

(Luke 23:34)

Are you saying that, at that moment, Jesus resisted the temptation to feel either hate or compassion, but loved them the way the Father loved them–without emotion of any kind? Are you saying there was no compassion in His Passion?

 

[spockrates]

Can the forgiveness of sins hang and depend on the Greatest Commandments?

When Jesus spent his ttime here on Earth he would have lived by the greatest commandments.

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

When the people of Jerusalem shouted, crucify him; did Jesus forgive them, in order that he should still love them as he loved himself? When the soldiers scourged him, and nailed him to the cross, did he forgive them?
It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. After his resurrection does the divine nature of Jesus, follow his human nature? When Jesus ascended into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each and every one of us as he loves himself?

We are told that the greatest response to any situation, is to love that person as we love ourselves.

Some thoughts to ponder on.

Blessings

Eric

Thank you Eric for those thoughtful thoughts! Let’s ponder them together, for two heads are better than one. I wholeheartedly agree that Jesus forgave those whom I’d find impossible to forgive without Divine assistance of some kind. But does that necessarily mean that He forgave without good reason? Did He have no reason to forgive anyone anything?

My thought (and please tell me if you disagree, and if so, why) is that Jesus forgives the very same way God the Father forgives. But if Jesus forgave everyone everything without exception, then why is there a Hell? Is not Hell the place for the ones He has not forgiven?

At Mass we pray something like (please forgive me if I’m not remembering correctly, for it has been a long time since I’ve attended Mass), “He will come again to judge the living and the dead.” Does this mean that all He judges will be forgiven and Hell will be empty?

For these reasons, I think Jesus must have a reason for forgiving (as He obviously must have a good reason for withholding forgiveness). But please don’t take my word for it. Let’s consider an example or two to test whether what I say is true. Think about Jesus’ exact words He prayed for His torturers as He suffered crucifixion:

Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

(Luke 23:34)

He spoke these words for the Roman soldiers who crucified Him, for they were the ones at the foot of the cross who divided up His clothes. Does He give the Father any reason why they should be forgiven? Yes. He says the reason is that “they do not know what they are doing” is wrong.

Now consider Jesus’ words elsewhere in Saint Luke’s gospel:

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him."

(Luke 17:3)

Does He give His followers any reason why they should forgive? Yes. He says, “If he repents, forgive him.”

But the one who repents is not the same as the one who does not know what he is doing is wrong. For the one who is ignorant of his sin does not know he needs to repent, and the one who needs to repent is aware of his wrongdoing. So doesn’t this mean we forgive different people for different reasons depending on their individual circumstances and culpability?

Here, then we have two examples where there is good reason to forgive, but can you think of even one example where Christ forgave without having any good reason at all? If it is true that Jesus always has a good reason to forgive or not to forgive, then shouldn’t we? For He tells us:

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

(John 13:34)

It seems to be that He is telling you and me that we are to love (and forgive) one another the way He loves (and forgives) us. We should, therefore have a good reason to forgive before we forgive, and if we find no good reason, we should (as Jesus) withhold forgiveness. What do you think?