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joanofarc2008
Guest
I hope you don’t mind - I am cataloguing some of your words to make sense of later - currently struggling.I’m glad he did! Welcome, JR!
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joanofarc2008
Guest
I’m going to have a go at this. I have been horribly hurt by someone over the last few years. I have a lot of pain to still let go of. And I forgive. And then I judge and get spiteful and mean-spirited and find myself in confession and then I forgive - I am probably almost at 490 times.
I probably should push for a second set 
The point is the forgiveness part here has nothing to do with the original sin - It has to do with how the injured party is handling my relationship with God. Everytime I use that excuse to allow anger to separate me from God even if only by fractions of an inch then I allow the other person, thing, entity, or evil to hurt me and my relationship with God more. This is why constant penance is important as well as examen of conscience. This is why I must be as watchful of my relationship with God as I am with other people.
I probably should push for a second set The point is the forgiveness part here has nothing to do with the original sin - It has to do with how the injured party is handling my relationship with God. Everytime I use that excuse to allow anger to separate me from God even if only by fractions of an inch then I allow the other person, thing, entity, or evil to hurt me and my relationship with God more. This is why constant penance is important as well as examen of conscience. This is why I must be as watchful of my relationship with God as I am with other people.
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PJM
Guest
QUOTE: Our Father who art in heaven.
Forgive us our Trasspasses…
As we forgive those who traspass against us"
Means he will for giveus exactly in proportion to how we forgive others.
Matt. 18: 13*22 "And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?”
[22] Jesussaid to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.”
MEANING ALWAYS, everytime and without end
God Bless,
Pat
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spockrates
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joanofarc2008
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Sorry I was actually trying to tag BrotherJR oops.Mind? By no means! I appreciate your participation.
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spockrates
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Thanks, Joan! Yes, I can see how refusing to forgive might put a rift between one and God. But does God want one to forgive everyone, even those He Himself does not forgive? How does one know who to forgive and who not to forgive?I’m going to have a go at this. I have been horribly hurt by someone over the last few years. I have a lot of pain to still let go of. And I forgive. And then I judge and get spiteful and mean-spirited and find myself in confession and then I forgive - I am probably almost at 490 times.
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spockrates
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Hey, Pat–long time no chat! Good to hear from you again.QUOTE: Our Father who art in heaven.
Forgive us our Trasspasses…
As we forgive those who traspass against us"
Means he will for giveus exactly in proportion to how we forgive others.
Matt. 18: 13*22 "And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?”
said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.”
MEANING ALWAYS, everytime and without end
God Bless,
Pat
Yes, I it sounds reasonable that we should forgive others the way Jesus forgives us. What troubles me is that Jesus does not forgive everyone, for those in Hell are certainly not forgiven. So I guess my first question is this: How does Jesus forgive us? Is there anything your or I must do to receive His forgiveness?
My second question is regarding the quote from Matthew you mentioned. Tell me please, Pat: What is the purpose of Jesus’ advice to you and me to “go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone”? Why is telling a person his fault a prerequisite to forgiving that person? If you or I should forgive everyone every time, without exception, then why not just forgive them without confronting them? Why go through the trouble of rubbing a person’s sin in his face if you’re going to forgive him regardless of what he does?
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spockrates
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spockrates
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Yes, JR, the Gospel does command us to forgive, but does it command us to forgive everyone everything without exception? or does it command us to forgive the way Jesus forgives? If it commands us to forgive the way Jesus forgives, then does Jesus forgive everyone everything without exception? or are there some who He does not forgive–not because He refuses to forgive them, but because they refuse to receive His forgiveness?
Good advice, that! I suppose one might also pray to have the feeling of compassion to motivate the act of compassion, and to make the forgiveness more real and more sincere? As Saint Paul the Apostle wrote:
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
(Romans 12:9-10)
I like the sound of that! It rings true that God’s desire in forgiving us is to bring us closer to Himself. So too, our desire in forgiving others should be to bring them closer to us, if only they will allow us to forgive them.Br. JR, OSF
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
(1 Peter 3:18)
But I wonder: What keeps someone from receiving God’s love and forgiveness and keeps one from drawing near to God?
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JReducation
Guest
You seem to be making a distinction that does not exist, between Jesus and the Father. Both forgive completely and they forgive all sins. Those who die without forgiveness do so because they reject the forgiveness that God offers, not because it has not been offered.Yes, JR, the Gospel does command us to forgive, but does it command us to forgive everyone everything without exception? or does it command us to forgive the way Jesus forgives? If it commands us to forgive the way Jesus forgives, then does Jesus forgive everyone everything without exception? or are there some who He does not forgive–not because He refuses to forgive them, but because they refuse to receive His forgiveness?
Good advice, that! I suppose one might also pray to have the feeling of compassion to motivate the act of compassion, and to make the forgiveness more real and more sincere? As Saint Paul the Apostle wrote:
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
(Romans 12:9-10)
I like the sound of that! It rings true that God’s desire in forgiving us is to bring us closer to Himself. So too, our desire in forgiving others should be to bring them closer to us, if only they will allow us to forgive them.
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
(1 Peter 3:18)
But I wonder: What keeps someone from receiving God’s love and forgiveness and keeps one from drawing near to God?
To forgive as Jesus forgives is the same as forgiving as the Father forgives. The Gospel tells us to forgive 70 x 7, meaning always and everyone. Jesus does not withhold forgiveness.
The Gospel also commands us to “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” I’m having trouble understanding why you seem to be struggling with the comprehension. I can understand having trouble forgiving. We all struggle with that. But the command is very clear.
Jesus tells us to forgive as God forgives, always. He models it for us too. What else do we need to know?
Don’t over analyze it.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Eric_Hyom
Guest
Greetings and peace be with you spockrates;
If he can’t fully forgive himself, he will be deeply troubled and in a state of hell.
I am guessing this could be how we might face life after death, we will be forgiven, but we shall openly see how we have affected others, it will be a hell of our own making. Will we be able to accept that forgiveness from Jesus, in the same way that the pick up driver would have to accept the forgiveness from Jreduction
Every blessing
Eric
I read the tragic story of how Jreduction was able to forgive the pick up driver, who had killed three members of his family. The pick up driver might well know that he has been forgiven, but can he accept forgiveness and be able to forgive himself fully?
If he can’t fully forgive himself, he will be deeply troubled and in a state of hell.
I am guessing this could be how we might face life after death, we will be forgiven, but we shall openly see how we have affected others, it will be a hell of our own making. Will we be able to accept that forgiveness from Jesus, in the same way that the pick up driver would have to accept the forgiveness from Jreduction
Every blessing
Eric
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spockrates
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Thanks Eric for sticking with me and JR! I’m sure our efforts will be rewarded.
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
(Galatians 6:9)
Perhaps I’m missing something, Eric, but when I read passages of Sacred Scripture like this one, I don’t see forgiveness. Do you?
God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
(Romans 2:6-8)
Please tell me, how is God’s wrath and anger the very same thing as His forgiveness? or do you think that expressing wrath and anger is a way to forgive someone?
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spockrates
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Thanks again for your thoughtful replies to my questions.
Not sure I follow you, there. I thought you said that forgiveness is an act of compassion, and that the compassion of Jesus the man is different from the compassion of God the Father. Jesus’ compassion is both an emotion and an action; God the Father’s compassion is an action, but not an emotion. Therefore, Jesus’ forgiveness is an act of emotion, but the Father’s is not. Doesn’t this make His forgiveness more like our own (more human and emotional) and less like the Father’s (which is devoid of all emotion)?
If Jesus does not withhold forgiveness, then what should we make of His words about the fate of Judas?
Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”
Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?”
Jesus answered, “Yes, it is you.”
(Matthew 26:23-25)
Has Judas been forgiven by Jesus, JR? If so, in what way was the betrayer who would have been better of if he had never been born forgiven? Was he pardoned for his sins? Was he rescued from Hell? Was he (as you and I long to be) brought near to God? Was he treated as one of God’s own children and welcomed home like the Prodigal Son? Was he treated as though he had never left home and embraced by God? Or is he now suffering in Hell? If suffering in Hell, in what way, exactly, is he experiencing the forgiveness of God?
The command is impossible for me. You see, while it might be possible to BECOME perfect, that is not what Jesus commands, is it? Perhaps you can BE (in your present state) perfect, but I cannot honestly say that I’ve ever been as perfect as God is perfect. Tell me, JR, are you a Thomist who believes that moral perfection this side of eternity is possible? Have you ever meant someone here on earth who obeys the command to be as perfect as God? But perhaps if you will tell my why you believe this a simple thing to do and understand, then I will know that I too can be as perfect as you.
What I need to know is exactly how is Judas forgiven. In what way is he experiencing God’s forgiveness. You see, offering forgiveness is not the same as being forgiven. Don’t you agree?
I don’t think it is possible to over analyze. For one can never know why something is true without using deductive or inductive analysis. What you probably mean is that I should not wrongly analyze? If so, I agree. I’m an armature apologist and not much of a theologian. But I’m willing to learn, and sincerely grateful for your trying to teach me the reasons why you believe.Br. JR, OSF
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spockrates
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JR:
I’ve been praying for wisdom regarding what you said about Jesus forgiving everyone for everything, without withholding forgiveness from anyone for anything. I’ve asked God to help me understand how what you said can possibly be true, or to show me what to say if it is close to the truth, but not the whole truth and nothing but the truth about how He forgives. This is my usual practice when I don’t understand something. For Saint James tells me:
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
(James 1:5)
The wisdom I received is from an odd place–a television show. It was last night’s episode of House, which is about a team of physicians and the weekly ethical dilemmas they face treating their patients. Let me explain as briefly as I know how: There was a young woman in the episode who would die if the cancer in her arm spread to the rest of her body. The doctors gave her a choice to live by having her arm amputated or die if she did not have the surgery immediately. She chose death, because she wanted to compete in a sailing competition, which was her lifelong dream, and she could not win the competition with one arm.
Now here is the wisdom I received from the TV show: By refusing the surgery the woman would die. If someone said, after her death, that she was still alive because she was offered life, wouldn’t that be absurd? The same applies to forgiveness: By refusing to do what is necessary to be forgiven, a person might die after refusing to be forgiven. If someone then said, after that person’s death, that she was still forgiven because she was offered forgiveness, wouldn’t that be inaccurate?
What I’m thinking is that we actually agree, and I’m just misunderstanding what you are trying to convey. When I ask if someone is forgiven, I’m not speaking of *potential *forgiveness; I’m speaking of *actual *forgiveness, where a person is residing in a state of having the consequences for her sins removed. Those in Hell might have once existed in a state of potential forgiveness (for God offered forgiveness to them before their death) but they are not in a state of actual forgiveness (for they are actually suffering the consequences of their sins, rather than having those consequences pardoned and removed).
In other words, I agree that even those in Hell were potentially forgiven, for our first Pope tells us:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, *not *wanting *anyone *to perish, but *everyone *to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)
But when I ask, “Does Jesus forgive everyone everything without exception, or does He withhold forgiveness?” I’m not asking about potential forgiveness; I’m asking about actual forgiveness. What I’m really asking is this: "Does Jesus give actual forgiveness to everyone for every sin without exception, or does He withhold actual (though never potential) forgiveness from those who refuse His forgiveness? Please let me know your answer to this rephrased question.
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Waiting
Guest
What a wonderfully clear way to explain a complex question. You are a great teacher.JR:
I’ve been praying for wisdom regarding what you said about Jesus forgiving everyone for everything, without withholding forgiveness from anyone for anything. I’ve asked God to help me understand how what you said can possibly be true, or to show me what to say if it is close to the truth, but not the whole truth and nothing but the truth about how He forgives. This is my usual practice when I don’t understand something. For Saint James tells me:
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
(James 1:5)
The wisdom I received is from an odd place–a television show. It was last night’s episode of House, which is about a team of physicians and the weekly ethical dilemmas they face treating their patients. Let me explain as briefly as I know how: There was a young woman in the episode who would die if the cancer in her arm spread to the rest of her body. The doctors gave her a choice to live by having her arm amputated or die if she did not have the surgery immediately. She chose death, because she wanted to compete in a sailing competition, which was her lifelong dream, and she could not win the competition with one arm.
Now here is the wisdom I received from the TV show: By refusing the surgery the woman would die. If someone said, after her death, that she was still alive because she was offered life, wouldn’t that be absurd? The same applies to forgiveness: By refusing to do what is necessary to be forgiven, a person might die after refusing to be forgiven. If someone then said, after that person’s death, that she was still forgiven because she was offered forgiveness, wouldn’t that be inaccurate?
What I’m thinking is that we actually agree, and I’m just misunderstanding what you are trying to convey. When I ask if someone is forgiven, I’m not speaking of *potential *forgiveness; I’m speaking of *actual *forgiveness, where a person is residing in a state of having the consequences for her sins removed. Those in Hell might have once existed in a state of potential forgiveness (for God offered forgiveness to them before their death) but they are not in a state of actual forgiveness (for they are actually suffering the consequences of their sins, rather than having those consequences pardoned and removed).
In other words, I agree that even those in Hell were potentially forgiven, for our first Pope tells us:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, *not *wanting *anyone *to perish, but *everyone *to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)
But when I ask, “Does Jesus forgive everyone everything without exception, or does He withhold forgiveness?” I’m not asking about potential forgiveness; I’m asking about actual forgiveness. What I’m really asking is this: "Does Jesus give actual forgiveness to everyone for every sin without exception, or does He withhold actual (though never potential) forgiveness from those who refuse His forgiveness? Please let me know your answer to this rephrased question.
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Eric_Hyom
Guest
Greetings and peace be with you spockrates;
If we are angry with someone today, does that mean we have to be angry with them for an eternity, or can we forgive them at some point?
I don’t know how God would judge Hitler, but if you go by the history books then it would be right for God to be angry.
We might spend a few years on this Earth; before we face an eternal life after death with God. However many deaths Hitler might be responsible for on this Earth, God can restore them all back to life in a greater good life after death.
Whatever sins I commit on this Earth, God can put right, nothing should stand in the way of the greatest commandments.
Just some thoughts
Blessings
Eric
I am not sure but…
If we are angry with someone today, does that mean we have to be angry with them for an eternity, or can we forgive them at some point?
I don’t know how God would judge Hitler, but if you go by the history books then it would be right for God to be angry.
We might spend a few years on this Earth; before we face an eternal life after death with God. However many deaths Hitler might be responsible for on this Earth, God can restore them all back to life in a greater good life after death.
Whatever sins I commit on this Earth, God can put right, nothing should stand in the way of the greatest commandments.
Just some thoughts
Blessings
Eric
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Eric_Hyom
Guest
Greeetings spockrates;
Judas took his own life, he created his own hell on this Earth; he could not live with the guilt of what he had done. He would have to face this guilt all over again when he faces his judge, if Judas is forgiven, can he forgive himself and accept the forgiveness of Jesus?
Can Judas learn to love Jesus as he loves himself, how will we cope at our judgement?
Just some thoughts to ponder on
Blessings
Eric
I feel it is wrong to single out Judas, it is the sins of everyone from Adam and Eve up to me, we are all equally responsible for the death of Jesus. Judas might have betrayed Jesus, others judged him, scourged him, nailed him to the cross, our sins nail Jesus to the cross.
Judas took his own life, he created his own hell on this Earth; he could not live with the guilt of what he had done. He would have to face this guilt all over again when he faces his judge, if Judas is forgiven, can he forgive himself and accept the forgiveness of Jesus?
Can Judas learn to love Jesus as he loves himself, how will we cope at our judgement?
Just some thoughts to ponder on
Blessings
Eric
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joanofarc2008
Guest
This may be a bit philosophical but I think there is a big difference between forgiving someone their actions and forgiving someone their character?
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JReducation
Guest
We have too many angels dancing on one pinhead.
If you refuse to forgive, then you have no right to receive the Sacraments. That’s why Jesus said that if your brother or sister has something against you, leave your offering at the foot of the altar, be reconciled, then come back and offer your sacrifice.
In other words, before you ask for forgiveness, make sure that you forgive.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
- Take Judas out of the equation. The Scripture does not say that Judas was not forgiven. It says that it would be better for him not to have been born. However, Jesus does not go into detail as to what this means. In all honesty, we’re reading into it. What do we know? We know that Judas regretted what he did and panicked. He despaired. However, we also know that human beings are capable of losing their ability to reason when they despair. That’s why even though suicide is objectively evil, subjectively it is possible that most people who commit suicide are not culpable, because they are not acting rationally. One must be in a rational state to be culpable of a sin. This does not mean that an irrational person is not capable of great evil. He or she can do great evil to self or to others. It simply means that the person may not be culpable or may be less culpable, even though the action does not change.
- Jesus does not withhold forgiveness from anyone, even when people don’t ask for it. Forgiveness is like those free samples that you see when you go to BJ’s, Costco, or Sam’s. It’s there for the taking. If you don’t take it, that’s your loss. Christ even accepts credit, meaning that he accepts imperfect contrition, in which case, you go to Purgatory and purify your soul. That’s how much the Father loves us and how much he wants to save us.
- Forgiveness does not mean that one has to justify what the person did. What is wrong remains wrong. However, I don’t hold it against the person and I move on with my life and let him or her move on too. It does not mean that I have to like their personality or that I have to deny the things in their character that need some work. It does mean that I don’t go around trashing that person. Obviously, if a person is dangerous, it is my moral duty to let others know. That’s not the same as trashing them. If my ex-wife is an abuser, I may want to drop a hint in her new boyfriend’s ear. I don’t have to make a campaign out of it. I can mention it and then move on. I share the information with those who need to know, not the whole world.
If you refuse to forgive, then you have no right to receive the Sacraments. That’s why Jesus said that if your brother or sister has something against you, leave your offering at the foot of the altar, be reconciled, then come back and offer your sacrifice.
In other words, before you ask for forgiveness, make sure that you forgive.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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joanofarc2008
Guest
Thank you - perfect.
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