To Forgive, or Not to Forgive?

[spockrates]

What a wonderfully clear way to explain a complex question. You are a great teacher.

Thanks Waiting! I have my moments–they are few and far between, but moments nonetheless. Still, I don’t think I can really take credit for the ideas I expressed as though they were my own. As Socrates modestly said:

Now, I am certain that this idea is not an invention of my own, since I am well aware that I know nothing. Therefore, I can only infer that I have been filled through the ears, like a pitcher, from the waters of another, though I have actually forgotten in my stupidity how this occurred, and who my informant was!

(Phaedrus, 235)

 

[spockrates]

Greeetings spockrates;

Live long and prosper, Eric.

http://www.80stees.com/images/products/Star_Trek_Spock_Live_Long_and_Prosper-T-link.jpg

I feel it is wrong to single out Judas, it is the sins of everyone from Adam and Eve up to me, we are all equally responsible for the death of Jesus. Judas might have betrayed Jesus, others judged him, scourged him, nailed him to the cross, our sins nail Jesus to the cross.

Judas took his own life, he created his own hell on this Earth; he could not live with the guilt of what he had done. He would have to face this guilt all over again when he faces his judge, if Judas is forgiven, can he forgive himself and accept the forgiveness of Jesus?

Can Judas learn to love Jesus as he loves himself, how will we cope at our judgement?

Just some thoughts to ponder on

Blessings

Eric

My thoughts are: (1) I agree that you and I bear responsibility for Christ’s suffering and death. After all, Saint Peter the Apostle wrote:

Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. …

(1 Peter 3:18)

(2) It is that Jesus’ statement was an announcement of the judgment to come to Judas. Today, the words, “I wish I had never been born,” are said flippantly, and not taken seriously. When Jesus said these words, however, they must have been a sincere statement of the true state of Judas’ existence. Why would it have been better if he had never been born? The answer appears clear: He was going to end up suffering in Hell–if not for the most serious sin of betraying Jesus, then perhaps for the mortal sin of suicide.

You see, it’s not me singling out Judas for judgment; it’s Jesus.

 

[spockrates]

Greetings and peace be with you spockrates;

I am not sure but…

If we are angry with someone today, does that mean we have to be angry with them for an eternity, or can we forgive them at some point?

I don’t know how God would judge Hitler, but if you go by the history books then it would be right for God to be angry.

We might spend a few years on this Earth; before we face an eternal life after death with God. However many deaths Hitler might be responsible for on this Earth, God can restore them all back to life in a greater good life after death.

Whatever sins I commit on this Earth, God can put right, nothing should stand in the way of the greatest commandments.

Just some thoughts

Blessings

Eric

Then we should investigate further until we are both sure!



I think there is something to what you said about not continuing to feel anger (even justified righteous indignation) for the sins of another. I suppose that, rather than feel that for those condemned to Hell, Jesus (and you and me) should feel pity and grief for their deserved judgment. If not feeling angry is all that forgiving is, and all that God expects of us, then I’d quite agree with you. But I wonder if that is all that the forgiveness God commands should be. Saint John the Apostle whom Jesus loved wrote:

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

So I wonder if forgiving someone with our thoughts and words is the same as forgiving them with our actions, or just giving lip service to forgiveness. I mean, think of the way Jesus forgives those in Heaven: He not only ceases to feel angry at them, He also pardons them for their many sins, and even embraces them as on of His own kids. Those are actions that give authenticity to the words, “I forgive you.” Don’t you agree?

If you do agree, then do you see that forgiving with our actions, and not merely our thoughts and words, is the best way to forgive, for it is the way Jesus Himself forgives? I mean, consider the definition of forgiveness:

for·give
verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.

–verb (used with object)

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one’s enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

–verb (used without object)
6.to pardon an offense or an offender.

I do agree with you that we should strive to forgive everyone, regardless of what they’ve done, in the sense of definition (4), but I’m thinking that God expects more. He wants us to back up our feelings with action. He wants us to also forgive others the way we want Him to forgive us, and the way He does forgive us–in the sense of definitions (1), (2), (3), (5) and (6). Don’t you agree?

 

[spockrates]

This may be a bit philosophical but I think there is a big difference between forgiving someone their actions and forgiving someone their character?

Joan:

Nothing wrong with being a philosopher, for the word (in Greek) means “lover of truth!”



What do you think that difference is, exactly? or will you give us an example?

 

[spockrates]

We have too many angels dancing on one pinhead.

1. Take Judas out of the equation. The Scripture does not say that Judas was not forgiven. It says that it would be better for him not to have been born. However, Jesus does not go into detail as to what this means. In all honesty, we’re reading into it. What do we know? We know that Judas regretted what he did and panicked. He despaired. However, we also know that human beings are capable of losing their ability to reason when they despair. That’s why even though suicide is objectively evil, subjectively it is possible that most people who commit suicide are not culpable, because they are not acting rationally. One must be in a rational state to be culpable of a sin. This does not mean that an irrational person is not capable of great evil. He or she can do great evil to self or to others. It simply means that the person may not be culpable or may be less culpable, even though the action does not change.

You might be right, and Judas might be in Purgatory, or perhaps even Heaven. Let’s take him out of the equation. That still does not leave Hell empty, and leaves the question: In what way, exactly are those in Hell forgiven? It’s a question worth considering, and one that deserves an answer.

1. Jesus does not withhold forgiveness from anyone, even when people don’t ask for it. Forgiveness is like those free samples that you see when you go to BJ’s, Costco, or Sam’s. It’s there for the taking. If you don’t take it, that’s your loss. Christ even accepts credit, meaning that he accepts imperfect contrition, in which case, you go to Purgatory and purify your soul. That’s how much the Father loves us and how much he wants to save us.

I imagine that if He asked someone suffering in Hell if she would now like to be forgiven her answer would not be no! but yes, I agree that He does not refuse to love and forgive those who sincerely want to be forgiven. So what would you say a person must do to show she truly wants to be forgiven? Let’s say she is a member of a street gang and she pops a cap into a rival gang member’s head, killing her. If she then asks a judge to forgive her crime, and the judge pardons her and does not send her to jail, and the same day she murders another, do you think her desire for forgiveness was sincere?

1. Forgiveness does not mean that one has to justify what the person did. What is wrong remains wrong. However, I don’t hold it against the person and I move on with my life and let him or her move on too. It does not mean that I have to like their personality or that I have to deny the things in their character that need some work. It does mean that I don’t go around trashing that person. Obviously, if a person is dangerous, it is my moral duty to let others know. That’s not the same as trashing them. If my ex-wife is an abuser, I may want to drop a hint in her new boyfriend’s ear. I don’t have to make a campaign out of it. I can mention it and then move on. I share the information with those who need to know, not the whole world.

Is there ever a reason not to forgive? The answer is NO.

If you refuse to forgive, then you have no right to receive the Sacraments. That’s why Jesus said that if your brother or sister has something against you, leave your offering at the foot of the altar, be reconciled, then come back and offer your sacrifice.

In other words, before you ask for forgiveness, make sure that you forgive.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I hope you don’t mind my using common definitions again, but I think considering the common meanings of the word forgive might help the dialog. I think you are speaking of forgiving in a limited sense, as in definition (4).

for·give
verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.

–verb (used with object)

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one’s enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

–verb (used without object)
6. to pardon an offense or an offender.

But I’m wondering if we should forgive everyone for everything without exception in the sense of definitions (1), (2), (3), (5) and (6). Please tell me your thoughts on this. Would you forgive the gang member in the sense of definition (2) if she gunned down one of your family members without just cause, or would you report her crime to the police?

 

[marica_mandic]

That is the question! Something Jesus said makes me wonder about the answer:

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

(Luke 6:36-37)

Is He saying that if we don’t forgive everyone for everything then God will not forgive us anything? or do you think there are times when it’s not wrong to withhold forgiveness?

My small opinion:
far example I forgive 90% what people done me
then God will forgive me 90% what I done other.
For me is the best solution that I forgive 100 %.

 

[Waiting]

Thanks Waiting! I have my moments–they are few and far between, but moments nonetheless. Still, I don’t think I can really take credit for the ideas I expressed as though they were my own. As Socrates modestly said:

Now, I am certain that this idea is not an invention of my own, since I am well aware that I know nothing. Therefore, I can only infer that I have been filled through the ears, like a pitcher, from the waters of another, though I have actually forgotten in my stupidity how this occurred, and who my informant was!

(Phaedrus, 235)

I have to empathize with Socrates. Sometimes I think the Lord wants to make sure we get an idea across correctly, so He directs our words at those times. It was a great explanation no matter the source.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Joan:

Nothing wrong with being a philosopher, for the word (in Greek) means “lover of truth!”



What do you think that difference is, exactly? or will you give us an example?

I think most in this conversation are using forgiveness as an action done physical instead of in the heart. Forgiveness I would argue is not an action done physically but instead in the heart. Since you bit then maybe I would go further - consider this slight difference - now forgive a serial killer.

 

[Sir_Knight]

But I’m wondering if we should forgive everyone for everything without exception in the sense of definitions (1), (2), (3), (5) and (6). Please tell me your thoughts on this. Would you forgive the gang member in the sense of definition (2) if she gunned down one of your family members without just cause, or would you report her crime to the police?

Let’s remember that we are not greater than God and God does not expect our forgiveness to outshine His own. The forgiveness of God is reflected to us via the Church in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Under normal circumstances the Church does not blindly forgive the sinner. I never recall a priest stopping a Mass and absolving all of those present so that they can receive the Eucharist. The Church REQUIRES the sinner to come seeking forgiveness. Additionally, the sinner has to acknowledge his wrong doings. If I go to confession and do not confess any sins, the priest is not going to absolve me of my sins because he doesn’t know what to forgive. Finally, the Church requires the sinner to be sorrowful for his offenses usually via an act of contrition. If the priest asks me to say the act of contrition and I refuse saying that I am not sorry for my sins, I would expect him not to absolve me of my sins.

So under normal circumstances, the Church requires the sinner to acknowledge their wrong doing, ask for forgiveness and express sorrow for their wrong doing. If not, the Church will not extend the forgiveness of God to the sinner. Those are the conditions under which we receive the forgiveness of God via the Church.

If someone comes to us seeking forgiveness, acknowledging their wrong-doing and is sorrowful for their wrong doing, then we are should forgive them. Otherwise, we are not expected to because under those circumstances, neither would the Church. As I said at the beginning, we are not greater than God and God does not expect our forgiveness to outshine His own reflected to us via His infallible Church.

 

[joanofarc2008]

We are not speaking of God’s forgiveness - we are speaking of our human responsibility to forgive. Or at least this is my impression.

 

[Sir_Knight]

We are speaking about the fact that we do not blindly forgive people unless they first come seeking that forgiveness, acknowledge their wrong doing and express sorrow for their wrong doing. Only under those conditions does the Church extend the forgiveness of God to the sinner and God does not expect our forgiveness to outshine His own because we are not greater than He is.

 

[joanofarc2008]

We are speaking about the fact that we do not blindly forgive people unless they first come seeking that forgiveness, acknowledge their wrong doing and express sorrow for their wrong doing. Only under those conditions does the Church extend the forgiveness of God to the sinner and God does not expect our forgiveness to outshine His own because we are not greater than He is.

Actually God does forgive venial sins without us expressly asking Him too. How do we know this - well we only need to look at the three differences between venial and mortal sin: knowledge, free will, and grave matter.

It would therefore be logical to assume that if one cannot form the intent to commit a sin (venial) because one does not have the knowledge of the nature of the sin (venial) but yet the sin is forgiven (because we know venial sins are forgiven by the Sacrament of the Eucharist) that your above statement is mistaken: God does forgive sins without us necessarily expressly asking us for forgiveness for that sin.

So which part of this can you poke a hole in?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Venial sin is committed without full consent. If someone offends you without fully intending to do so, you would also be obligated to forgive them. The examples given talk about someone gunning down a family member. Since it is extremely rare for something like that not to be a mortal sin, that is what I was addressing – serious offenses … mortal sins.

Big enough hole for ya?

 

[joanofarc2008]

Venial sin is committed without full consent. If someone offends you without fully intending to do so, you would also be obligated to forgive them. The examples given talk about someone gunning down a family member. Since it is extremely rare for something like that not to be a mortal sin, that is what I was addressing – serious offenses … mortal sins.

Big enough hole for ya?

Not at all since I do not believe anyone had differentiated this in this thread and it is quite possible for someone to take another’s life through venial sin. There are dozens of examples that come to mind - vehicular manslaughter, medical malpractice, etc.

I think you are trying to fit a thread into an argument you seem to want to make not making an argument that fits with the thread - especially since this thread has been a nice peaceful discussion of sacred scripture.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Not at all since I do not believe anyone had differentiated this in this thread and it is quite possible for someone to take another’s life through venial sin. There are dozens of examples that come to mind - vehicular manslaughter, medical malpractice, etc.

The post that I replied to SPECIFICALLY gave the example of having a family member gunned down without just cause. Only in the most remote cases would that not be a mortal sin. As I explained earlier, that is what I was addressing – a mortal sin.

I think you are trying to fit a thread into an argument you seem to want to make not making an argument that fits with the thread - especially since this thread has been a nice peaceful discussion of sacred scripture.

As evident by the question asked, this “nice peaceful discussion of sacred scripture” was not addressing everyone’s questions after 100+ posts. I took the liberty of addressing those unanswered questions.

 

[JReducation]

The post that I replied to SPECIFICALLY gave the example of having a family member gunned down without just cause. Only in the most remote cases would that not be a mortal sin. As I explained earlier, that is what I was addressing – a mortal sin.

As evident by the question asked, this “nice peaceful discussion of sacred scripture” was not addressing everyone’s questions after 100+ posts. I took the liberty of addressing those unanswered questions.

You may want to read the writings of St. Faustina, St. Francis of Assisi, John Paul II and Part II Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict XVI. They are very clear that forgivenss is unconditional and is generously offered. It does not wait for the sinner to come asking for it.

What does happen is that the person who does not come seeking, will not find what is being offered.

However, the question on the table is whether or not we should forgive, even when we are not asked for forgiveness. The above spiritual masters say, “Yes.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sir_Knight]

Then why does the Church fail to offer that same example?

 

[JReducation]

Then why does the Church fail to offer that same example?

She does not fail to do so. I just pointed you to spiritual masters of the Latin Catholic tradition from Francis of Assisi to Pope Benedict XVI, from the 12th century to the 21st century. Almost 900 years saying the same thing through many voices and teachers.

We don’t need an authoritative decree from the Church for everything that crosses our mind. The Roman Curia is not in the business of micromanaging. That’s why the Church canonizes men and women, why she points to some as spiritual masters, why she publishes the works of many, so that we should learn from them.

Are you in a position to take on: Francis of Assisi, Bonaventure, Francis of Osuna, Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Siena, Paul of the Cross, Ignatius of Loyola, Faustina, Maximilian Kolbe, Mother Teresa, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI?

Two of the most perfect examples of forgiveness actually took place during the 20th century. Friar Maximilian Kolbe was tortured and left to die of starvation. When he failed to die, they decided to kill him by lethal injection. When the doctor walked into the cell to inject him, Br. Max extended his arm and said, “Before you inject me, may I say something?” The doctor told him to speak. Br. Max said, “Give my blessing to your family and children.” He then smiled at the doctor and died in 90 seconds. That is forgiveness, freely given.

The other was Pope John Paul II. When he was well enough to leave his home, he went to the prison to visit the man who attempted to kill him. He offered him forgiveness, which the man refused to accept. But John Paull offered it anyway.

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Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sir_Knight]

The INFALLIBLE Church REQUIRES a person to (1) seek forgiveness (2) acknowledging their wrong-doing AND (3) express sorrow for those actions in order to receive the forgiveness of God. Are we greater than the Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit of God? If not, why should our forgiveness be greater?

 

[spockrates]

My small opinion:
far example I forgive 90% what people done me
then God will forgive me 90% what I done other.
For me is the best solution that I forgive 100 %.

Glad you joined the conversation, Marcia! At this point in the discussion, I’m thinking that there are different kinds of forgiveness. For example, consider the common definitions of the word forgive:

for·give
verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.

–verb (used with object)

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one’s enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.

–verb (used without object)
6. to pardon an offense or an offender.

To help me understand what you are saying when you forgive 100% of the time, do you mean you always forgive in the sense of definition (4)? or do you forgive 100% of the time in the sense of definitions (1), (2), (3), (5) and (6), too?