To Forgive, or Not to Forgive?

[spockrates]

I have to empathize with Socrates. Sometimes I think the Lord wants to make sure we get an idea across correctly, so He directs our words at those times. It was a great explanation no matter the source.

Thanks again. I don’t think I’m important enough for God to use me as a spokesperson, though I’d be in awe and honored if He did!



I imagine that any good ideas I have, which come from the Holy Spirit, come to me indirectly, through the words of those He chooses as His teachers–such as RJ. I don’t want to be presumptuous in saying God speaks directly to me, though I suspect that, at rare times, He has. In dialogs such as these, I (like Socrates) consider my goal to ask the questions to draw the wisdom out of those much wiser than myself. I also pray that God will give me the wisdom to understand. I’m no saint, but as Saint James wrote, one does not have to be a saint to become wise.

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

 

[spockrates]

I think most in this conversation are using forgiveness as an action done physical instead of in the heart. Forgiveness I would argue is not an action done physically but instead in the heart. Since you bit then maybe I would go further - consider this slight difference - now forgive a serial killer.

Thanks again, Joan for helping me think this through. Are you thinking of forgiveness in the heart as being something (such as not dwelling on feelings of anger or resentment) and forgiveness of physical action as being something one says or does in word and deed?

For example, consider a friend who betrays you. Would forgiveness of the heart be not feeling resentment, but forgiveness of physical action be excusing the wrong done to you and remaining friends with the person? In other words, if you told someone you no longer considered her a friend, would you still be forgiving her?

 

[spockrates]

Let’s remember that we are not greater than God and God does not expect our forgiveness to outshine His own. The forgiveness of God is reflected to us via the Church in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Under normal circumstances the Church does not blindly forgive the sinner. I never recall a priest stopping a Mass and absolving all of those present so that they can receive the Eucharist. The Church REQUIRES the sinner to come seeking forgiveness. Additionally, the sinner has to acknowledge his wrong doings. If I go to confession and do not confess any sins, the priest is not going to absolve me of my sins because he doesn’t know what to forgive. Finally, the Church requires the sinner to be sorrowful for his offenses usually via an act of contrition. If the priest asks me to say the act of contrition and I refuse saying that I am not sorry for my sins, I would expect him not to absolve me of my sins.

So under normal circumstances, the Church requires the sinner to acknowledge their wrong doing, ask for forgiveness and express sorrow for their wrong doing. If not, the Church will not extend the forgiveness of God to the sinner. Those are the conditions under which we receive the forgiveness of God via the Church.

If someone comes to us seeking forgiveness, acknowledging their wrong-doing and is sorrowful for their wrong doing, then we are should forgive them. Otherwise, we are not expected to because under those circumstances, neither would the Church. As I said at the beginning, we are not greater than God and God does not expect our forgiveness to outshine His own reflected to us via His infallible Church.

Yes, Sir Knight, I can see that!



I think we might even go so far as to apply what the Church requires in order to forgive to our own relationships. I think what you are saying agrees with what Christ Himself recommends:

"So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

What He appears to be saying is that one must meet the condition of sincerely repenting of one’s sin before you or I should forgive her. Don’t you agree?

 

[spockrates]

Actually God does forgive venial sins without us expressly asking Him too. How do we know this - well we only need to look at the three differences between venial and mortal sin: knowledge, free will, and grave matter.

It would therefore be logical to assume that if one cannot form the intent to commit a sin (venial) because one does not have the knowledge of the nature of the sin (venial) but yet the sin is forgiven (because we know venial sins are forgiven by the Sacrament of the Eucharist) that your above statement is mistaken: God does forgive sins without us necessarily expressly asking us for forgiveness for that sin.

So which part of this can you poke a hole in?

Makes sense to me!



After all, Jesus forgave the Roman soldiers who tortured and killed Him because they did not have knowledge of the wrongness of their sins:

Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

(Luke 23:34)

 

[spockrates]

Joan and Sir Knight:

Do you both think that if one is culpable for her sin, then she must repent before we are required to forgive her? but if one is ignorant of her sin, then repentance should not be required in order for us to forgive her? This seems to me to be the conclusion drawn from comparing Luke 17 with Luke 23.

 

[Waiting]

You may want to read the writings of St. Faustina, St. Francis of Assisi, John Paul II and Part II Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict XVI. They are very clear that forgivenss is unconditional and is generously offered. It does not wait for the sinner to come asking for it.

What does happen is that the person who does not come seeking, will not find what is being offered.

However, the question on the table is whether or not we should forgive, even when we are not asked for forgiveness. The above spiritual masters say, “Yes.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I believe your post should answer the OP’s question, and put an end to anyone’s doubts. Thank you.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Thanks again, Joan for helping me think this through. Are you thinking of forgiveness in the heart as being something (such as not dwelling on feelings of anger or resentment) and forgiveness of physical action as being something one says or does in word and deed?

For example, consider a friend who betrays you. Would forgiveness of the heart be not feeling resentment, but forgiveness of physical action be excusing the wrong done to you and remaining friends with the person? In other words, if you told someone you no longer considered her a friend, would you still be forgiving her?

That is exactly where I was going with that - however with the caveat that if I told someone that she was the lying, cheating person that was sleeping with my xh and that is why we weren’t friends anymore - that isn’t forgiveness that is gossip. An example would be just being polite and stating we don’t really hang out anymore. Most people if they aren’t gossipping won’t push.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Joan and Sir Knight:

Do you both think that if one is culpable for her sin, then she must repent before we are required to forgive her? but if one is ignorant of her sin, then repentance should not be required in order for us to forgive her? This seems to me to be the conclusion drawn from comparing Luke 17 with Luke 23.

I think you also forget two different things - the Church is the representive of God on earth - She is NOT God. God can forgive anything as He knows what is in our hearts and can judge culpability. To say the Church is completely infallible on the subject of who gets in to Heaven and whom is forgive…I would stop short at beatification. Afterall the Pope is only infallible in matters spoken ex cathedra.

What I am getting at is that something that may look very objective to you may not be so objective to the next person. The intent may be there to seek forgiveness and death may cut that short.

God can always forgive where the Church may be unable to - The Church is a human institution on earth and has limits. God does not.

 

[JReducation]

The INFALLIBLE Church REQUIRES a person to (1) seek forgiveness (2) acknowledging their wrong-doing AND (3) express sorrow for those actions in order to receive the forgiveness of God. Are we greater than the Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit of God? If not, why should our forgiveness be greater?

Slow down, you’re crossing apples and tomatoes. They’re both red, but not the same.

The above rule is for sacramental absolution. It does not carry over to forgiveness in daily life. In daily life, we are required to forgive always, whether the other person asks for it or not.

Even in sacramental absolution, the law is not as strict as you describe it. There are times when the Church does offer sacramental absolution even when it’s not requested, such as when the person cannot confess their sin (i.e. a person in an unconscious state). The priest can absolve using one of two means: The Rite of Reconciliation or Anointing of the Sick. The person is not required to express contrition, confess or ask for forgiveness. The absolution is given through the mercy of the Church. From that point forward, it’s in God’s hands.

The question in the OP is not about sacramental absolution. It’s about the daily Christian life. Those rules are different. For those rules, we look to the spiritual masters and to the scriptures. We are not allowed to interpret the Scriptures without using the backdrop of Spiritual Theology.

We have to be careful on this subject not to confuse the requirements of Spiritual Theology and the requirements of Sacramental Theology. They can overlap, but they are different, because the circumstances are different.

I didn’t know that we has switched subjects from the Christian Life to sacramental absolution.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I think you also forget two different things - the Church is the representive of God on earth - She is NOT God. God can forgive anything as He knows what is in our hearts and can judge culpability. To say the Church is completely infallible on the subject of who gets in to Heaven and whom is forgive…I would stop short at beatification. Afterall the Pope is only infallible in matters spoken ex cathedra.

What I am getting at is that something that may look very objective to you may not be so objective to the next person. The intent may be there to seek forgiveness and death may cut that short.

God can always forgive where the Church may be unable to - The Church is a human institution on earth and has limits. God does not.

Actually, when it comes to sacramental absolution the theology and rules are very complex. The Sacrament of Reconciliation and Annointing of the Sick are the ordinary means to receive absolotion. However, the Church believes and teaches that there can be absolution without them. Those situations are listed in the manuals on Sacramental Theology.

But we need to focus this conversation or we’ll be tripping all over each other. Is the question on the table about sacramental absolutioin or about the Christian Life?

If we’re going to be applying the rules that govern the one to the other, we’ll get all confused. If we’re not going to focus on one or the other, I’m out of here. I don’t work unless I know exactly what it is that is being asked.

1. Does the Church have to absolve those whe do not ask for it? That’s one question.
2. Do we have to forgive those who do not ask for it? That’s another question.

Question one is about a sacrament.

Question two is about our obligation to live the ascetical life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[joanofarc2008]

Actually, when it comes to sacramental absolution the theology and rules are very complex. The Sacrament of Reconciliation and Annointing of the Sick are the ordinary means to receive absolotion. However, the Church believes and teaches that there can be absolution without them. Those situations are listed in the manuals on Sacramental Theology.

But we need to focus this conversation or we’ll be tripping all over each other. Is the question on the table about sacramental absolutioin or about the Christian Life?

If we’re going to be applying the rules that govern the one to the other, we’ll get all confused. If we’re not going to focus on one or the other, I’m out of here. I don’t work unless I know exactly what it is that is being asked.

1. Does the Church have to absolve those whe do not ask for it? That’s one question.
2. Do we have to forgive those who do not ask for it? That’s another question.

Question one is about a sacrament.

Question two is about our obligation to live the ascetical life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Personally I would be much happier worrying about what I have to do in my own Christian life and let those ordained worry about the complex rules - however it seems that some wish to draw parallels between God’s forgiveness in Sacrament and what we are duty bound to do in our lives as being Christ-like.

 

[JReducation]

Personally I would be much happier worrying about what I have to do in my own Christian life and let those ordained worry about the complex rules - however it seems that some wish to draw parallels between God’s forgiveness in Sacrament and what we are duty bound to do in our lives as being Christ-like.

We shouldn’t draw those parallels. That’s why the Church deliberately separates them into two separate branches of theology. Ascetical and Mystical Theology answers questions pertaining to the everyday life of the believer, such as forgivenss. Sacramental Theology answers questions pertaining to the nature of the sacraments, such as the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Annointing of the Sick. If we really want to go into the fine details, there is another discipline that is not theology at all. It’s Canon Law, which governs how the sacraments are celebrated and under what conditions.

When we ask these questions in the seminary, the first thing that the professor wants to know is are you talking about the spiritual life or the sacraments? The two answers are different. What has been revealed about the sacraments and what has been revealed about the spiritual life are related, but not the same. For example, you cannot ask for absolution, if you refuse to forgive. The priest has to deny you absolution, because you persevere in sinning against mercy and charity. Do you see how they’re related?

But at the same time they are separate areas of theology, because one has to do with our daily lives and the other has to do with sacraments.

For our purposes here, we need to focus on the original question. I never got the impression that the poster was asking about sacramental absolution.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

A blessed Easter to all! :getholy:

 

[Michael_Francis]

The OP seems to be asking about the daily life aspect, so please remain on that topic.
Thanks guys.

 

[joanofarc2008]

We shouldn’t draw those parallels. That’s why the Church deliberately separates them into two separate branches of theology. Ascetical and Mystical Theology answers questions pertaining to the everyday life of the believer, such as forgivenss. Sacramental Theology answers questions pertaining to the nature of the sacraments, such as the sacraments of Reconciliation and the Annointing of the Sick. If we really want to go into the fine details, there is another discipline that is not theology at all. It’s Canon Law, which governs how the sacraments are celebrated and under what conditions.

When we ask these questions in the seminary, the first thing that the professor wants to know is are you talking about the spiritual life or the sacraments? The two answers are different. What has been revealed about the sacraments and what has been revealed about the spiritual life are related, but not the same. For example, you cannot ask for absolution, if you refuse to forgive. The priest has to deny you absolution, because you persevere in sinning against mercy and charity. Do you see how they’re related?

But at the same time they are separate areas of theology, because one has to do with our daily lives and the other has to do with sacraments.

For our purposes here, we need to focus on the original question. I never got the impression that the poster was asking about sacramental absolution.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

A blessed Easter to all! :getholy:

I agree. Amen. And a Happy and Blessed Easter to you and the Brothers as well.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Slow down, you’re crossing apples and tomatoes. They’re both red, but not the same.

The above rule is for sacramental absolution. It does not carry over to forgiveness in daily life. In daily life, we are required to forgive always, whether the other person asks for it or not.

Even in sacramental absolution, the law is not as strict as you describe it. There are times when the Church does offer sacramental absolution even when it’s not requested, such as when the person cannot confess their sin (i.e. a person in an unconscious state). The priest can absolve using one of two means: The Rite of Reconciliation or Anointing of the Sick. The person is not required to express contrition, confess or ask for forgiveness. The absolution is given through the mercy of the Church. From that point forward, it’s in God’s hands.

The question in the OP is not about sacramental absolution. It’s about the daily Christian life. Those rules are different. For those rules, we look to the spiritual masters and to the scriptures. We are not allowed to interpret the Scriptures without using the backdrop of Spiritual Theology.

We have to be careful on this subject not to confuse the requirements of Spiritual Theology and the requirements of Sacramental Theology. They can overlap, but they are different, because the circumstances are different.

I didn’t know that we has switched subjects from the Christian Life to sacramental absolution.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Actually, when it comes to sacramental absolution the theology and rules are very complex. The Sacrament of Reconciliation and Annointing of the Sick are the ordinary means to receive absolotion. However, the Church believes and teaches that there can be absolution without them. Those situations are listed in the manuals on Sacramental Theology.

But we need to focus this conversation or we’ll be tripping all over each other. Is the question on the table about sacramental absolutioin or about the Christian Life?

If we’re going to be applying the rules that govern the one to the other, we’ll get all confused. If we’re not going to focus on one or the other, I’m out of here. I don’t work unless I know exactly what it is that is being asked.

1. Does the Church have to absolve those whe do not ask for it? That’s one question.
2. Do we have to forgive those who do not ask for it? That’s another question.

Question one is about a sacrament.

Question two is about our obligation to live the ascetical life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

The Church sets the example for it’s members to follow. If the Church requires a person to (1) seek forgiveness (2) acknowledging their wrong-doing AND (3) express sorrow for those actions in order to receive the forgiveness of God; why would they hold their members to a higher standard?

Additionally, completely taking the sacrament aspect out of the picture, according to official Church teaching, those with unrepentant mortal sins are forever damned to hell. God does not blindly forgive. He requires certain things from the sinner such as being sorrowful for their offenses. To claim that an all-perfect God would require us, with our imperfect and fallen nature, to a higher degree of forgiveness from us than what He, Himself, demostrates; is illogical and plain wrong.

 

[joanofarc2008]

The Church sets the example for it’s members to follow. If the Church requires a person to (1) seek forgiveness (2) acknowledging their wrong-doing AND (3) express sorrow for those actions in order to receive the forgiveness of God; why would they hold their members to a higher standard?

Additionally, completely taking the sacrament aspect out of the picture, according to official Church teaching, those with unrepentant mortal sins are forever damned to hell. God does not blindly forgive. He requires certain things from the sinner such as being sorrowful for their offenses. To claim that an all-perfect God would require us, with our imperfect and fallen nature, to a higher degree of forgiveness from us than what He, Himself, demostrates; is illogical and plain wrong.

The Mods gave us the following advice:

The OP seems to be asking about the daily life aspect, so please remain on that topic.
Thanks guys.

Can we stick to that?

 

[Sir_Knight]

The Mods gave us the following advice:

The OP seems to be asking about the daily life aspect, so please remain on that topic.
Thanks guys.

From the opening post …

Is He saying that if we don’t forgive everyone for everything then God will not forgive us anything? or do you think there are times when it’s not wrong to withhold forgiveness?

… It would appear that my reply was very much on topic.

 

[JReducation]

The Church sets the example for it’s members to follow. If the Church requires a person to (1) seek forgiveness (2) acknowledging their wrong-doing AND (3) express sorrow for those actions in order to receive the forgiveness of God; why would they hold their members to a higher standard?

Additionally, completely taking the sacrament aspect out of the picture, according to official Church teaching, those with unrepentant mortal sins are forever damned to hell. God does not blindly forgive. He requires certain things from the sinner such as being sorrowful for their offenses. To claim that an all-perfect God would require us, with our imperfect and fallen nature, to a higher degree of forgiveness from us than what He, Himself, demonstrates; is illogical and plain wrong.

The Church gives us two branches of theology that deal in two related, yet different domains. Sacramental Theology and Canon Law are one domain. Ascetical and Mystical theology are in another domain.

In this case, we’re not talking about sacramental theology or sacramental absolution. We’re talking about life in the Spirit, ergo spirituality. That comes under the domain of ascetical and mystical theology. For those answers we go to the spiritual masters that the Church places at our disposal.

I already gave you several. If you want a spiritual master with better credentials than Francis of Assisi, Catherine of Siena, Paul of the Cross, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, John Paul II or Benedict XVI, that spiritual master has not been born yet.

In his work, Jesus of Nazareth{/u] the Vicar of Christ says that “the person who is called to forgive must overcome in himself the evil done to him; he must burn it interiorly and in so doing, he must renew himself” We do not renew ourselves only when the other person asks for forgiveness. Our vocation is a call to holiness, to be saints. Therefore, the Holy Father points to Francis of Assisi as the saint who has given us the most intense illustration of how to live the First Beatitude. For poverty requires stripping oneself, not only of material things, but also of injustices committed against us. Only through forgiveness can we achieve the poverty of the Seraphic Father, which is the poverty of the Gospel, says our Holy Father.

As you can see, the Church does give us the guidelines and the guides. However, we have to look in the right place for the appropriate guides and guidelines. Just because we’re talking about forgiveness, does not mean that we’re talking about the same thing. Forgiveness in daily life, is not the same as sacramental absolution. Therefore, it follows different guidelines.

In sacramental absolution the forgiveness is between Christ and the sinner. In daily life, it’s between two sinners. The fact that you have two sinner involved, automatically changes the rules. Christ does not have to renew himself, nor does he have to strip himself of his ego in order to become poor as the First Beatitude calls for. You and I do have to renew ourselves and strip ourselves. Therefore, infractions committed against us present us with the opportunity to overcome ourselves, by overcoming our ego. We overcome our ego when we admit that we too are sinners and we ask for forgiveness for ourselves and the person who has offended us. That’s why we say “Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who have offended us.” True forgiveness is a dynamic process in that involves the conversion of the victim and the transgressor. Absolution, does not involve the conversion of Christ. That’s why the Church speaks about forgiveness as a spiritual action separately from sacramental absolution.

If you want to discuss absolution, then I’m willing, but not here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sir_Knight]

I say again, we are not greater than God and God does not expect our forgiveness to outshine His own.

 

[JReducation]

I say again, we are not greater than God and God does not expect our forgiveness to outshine His own.

And I say again, you’re not paying attention to theology or the topic of this thread.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF