To FORMER atheists

[mkw]

The “Error of my thinking” was NOT believing in a Creator.

God opened my heart and eyes to the intense beauty and complexity of creation. Through MY reasoning ability (however limited they may be), I finally saw for the first time how complex and organized all of creation was. NOT a random coming together of life forms and non life forms.

For me, it finally came down to just one question. How did the planet start? Even if you were to believe in the Big Bang theroy, which I still have not ruled out in my own thinking, then the question that begs to be asked is…“WHERE DID THE GASES COME FROM TO CREATE THE BLAST”? Answer?..A Creator-----GOD!!

I can articulate better with the verbal language then with the written, so my thoughts and opinions are not always presented in a clear and concise manner. But ya kinda get the idea.

 

[Tlaloc]

4 marks:

Ockham also postulated that if God wanted to, tomorrow, He could make the sun rise in the west and set in the east. In fact, Ockham went so far as to say that we cannot be assured of the fact that the sun will continue to rise in the east and set in the west. It may not. To this day, evangelicals and fundamentalists (and some Catholics) continue to operate out of such foolish fideism. The reality is that God is a God of faith, but also of Reason. William of Ockham…gotta love him.

Nevertheless given the two statements:

The sun will rise in the east tomorrow, and
The sun will rise in the west tomorrow

Occam’s razor selects the first as the most likely. There’s nothing saying that a person can’t be rational and faithful. But a smart person understands that each has their place.

 

[AnAtheist]

Lisa N:

So tell me about this God you don’t believe in? I may not believe in that God either.Your term or definition of god is simply not compelling. No wonder you don’t believe in that version.

Ok, I don’t believe in omnipotence or omniscience because they are impossible. I don’t believe in omnibenevolence, as it cannot be observed anywhere on this planet. I don’t believe that a nearly omnianything Entity has to pretend to be dead for a couple of days to save me from a fate, He has created for me in the first place.

BTW I think it is incredibly disrespectful that you consistently fail to capitalize where it is appropriate. Shall we have some mutual respect?

Hm, I try to do that, but sometimes I fail because I simply don’t care. To me God is a subset of all gods. But from now on I promise to be VERY careful, so when I type god I mean any kind of god, while when I type God I mean the Christian One.

The cheese example was also rather cheesy. If you wish to quit the discussion because it’s run its course then say so. Don’t simply post absurdities.

I deliberately used a drastic example to point out, that *without *logic any absurdity is a valid statement. I could have said
“A->B and only B->C therefore A->C; and D->not B therefore D->C is not possible; btw E->C is meaningless”. Not that catchy, is it?

Only logic seperates the meaningfull from the absurd.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

wolpertinger:

I’m afraid I have to disagree with you in return.

If the materialistic view is true, then emotions like love or compassion are nothing but emergent phenomena of physical processes.

There’s the rub. Tihs “noithing but” It is the ding an sich that is the heart of existance. It’s all the other junk that is prized to highly.

imho

Sigh. I suppose the feeling is mutual.

One man’s forest is another’s emergent phenomena

 

[Drew98]

mkw:

the question that begs to be asked is…“WHERE DID THE GASES COME FROM TO CREATE THE BLAST”? Answer?..A Creator-----GOD!!

Well, speaking of begging the question - doesn’t your reasoning also demand that God have a creator?

 

[Lisa_N]

AnAtheist:

Ok, I don’t believe in omnipotence.

THe Cosmic Cop? Not my God either.

AnAtheist:

or omniscience

Ah, the Nuclear Socrates version. Nope. Not mine either.

AnAtheist:

because they are impossible.

In your context and with your understanding only.

AnAtheist:

I don’t believe in omnibenevolence,

Aha, Super Santa version. Nope. Not my God either

AnAtheist:

. I don’t believe that a nearly omnianything Entity has to pretend to be dead for a couple of days to save me from a fate, He has created for me in the first place.

Rather a rude statement–‘pretending to be dead.’ You are assuming again. As to the fate, it was man’s choice. IOW the freewill aspect. If God created man with freewill, and man chose to disobey God, then he chose his fate. Or I guess we can blame Eve or the snake, but not God.

AnAtheist:

Hm, I try to do that, but sometimes I fail because I simply don’t care. To me God is a subset of all gods. But from now on I promise to be VERY careful, so when I type god I mean any kind of god, while when I type God I mean the Christian One.

Thanks I was actually also referring to your failure to capitalize Christian as if this faith is to be dismissed. I see you are from Germany. Perhaps English isn’t your first language and you do not normally capitalize proper names?

AnAtheist:

I deliberately used a drastic example to point out, that *without *logic any absurdity is a valid statement. I could have said
“A->B and only B->C therefore A->C; and D->not B therefore D->C is not possible; btw E->C is meaningless”. Not that catchy, is it?

Only logic seperates the meaningfull from the absurd.

I don’t know what was absurd, other than your example.

Lisa N

 

[mkw]

drew98. That may be an argument of sorts. In fact, that is the argument my own daughter uses for not believing.

I’m not as smart or as well read as many on these forums are, ( thank God for them, I have learned so much from their writtings). All I know is,I believe in God and that He created ALL THINGS. For me to believe otherwise is to go backwards into the darkness of atheism.

There are just some questions that will not be answered until we get to heaven (I pray we all make it there). Speaking only for myself, my brain could not handle all the answers of the universe. God is the boss and in charge, what ever He wants me to know, He will tell me. I follow the teachings of Holy Mother Church because that is what our Lord wanted and that is why He set up His church here on earth.

It is enough that I try everyday to live my life the way Jesus wants me to, failing and falling many times along the way, but blessed to have the sacraments to heal me and lead me home.

I will let smarter people then me try and figure God out. I will just love Him and follow Him.

 

[AnAtheist]

Lisa N:

IOW the freewill aspect. If God created man with freewill, and man chose to disobey God, then he chose his fate. Or I guess we can blame Eve or the snake, but not God.

Oh yes, I forgot free will. The Christian concept of free will is illogical too.

Thanks I was actually also referring to your failure to capitalize Christian as if this faith is to be dismissed. I see you are from Germany. Perhaps English isn’t your first language and you do not normally capitalize proper names?

Correct, in German the phrase “the Christian God”, would be “der christliche Gott” and other gods would be “andere Götter”, you see the problem (das Problem).

 

[wolpertinger]

AnAtheist:

Correct, in German the phrase “the Christian God”, would be “der christliche Gott” and other gods would be “andere Götter”, you see the problem (das Problem).

Pointing out spelling and grammar mistakes is usually the last fallback position when losing an argument.

 

[Raynd]

Uhmmmm . I’m not sure that everything has to be so complicated…there are a lot of ridiculous notions and out right lies in this thread…

I don’t consider myself an atheist…But I also do not believe that an unknowable force beyond time and space…created earth (which is less than the size of a grain of sand in the known universe) so that it could populate it with people who would worship and serve it…I mean that is the real bottom line right? A god put people on this earth to worship itself, and if we don’t…it will send us to a hell.??

The philosophical problems and implications of this idea are so vast…that they really don’t merit discussion.

There is an old saying “Sir…I contend that we are all atheists…I just happen to dismiss one less god than you do” …see if we diametrically oppose ourselves to other religions…we are all in effect “atheists”…if that is indeed the term you wish to use.

 

[AnAtheist]

wolpertinger:

Pointing out spelling and grammar mistakes is usually the last fallback position when losing an argument.

That I don’t mind. What I mind is, when the logic in an argument can no longer be denied, logic itself is denied. That’s not only frustrating but inconsequent.

 

[Lisa_N]

AnAtheist:

Oh yes, I forgot free will. The Christian concept of free will is illogical too./QUOTE]

Actually the concept of freewill makes perfect sense. But I’m curious, do things HAVE to be logical? Most people are not.
Is the recent tsunami logical? Is logic your god?

AnAtheist:

Correct, in German the phrase “the Christian God”, would be “der christliche Gott” and other gods would be “andere Götter”, you see the problem (das Problem).

Thanks for clarification. I took a year of German and two years of French and recall there were differences in use of capital letters. Unlike Wolpreinger who claims this means I am losing the argument I pointed this out because I believe some people deliberately fail to capitalize the word God or Christian as a way of expressing their disdain. I think that’s a cheap shot and as ineffective as trying to obfuscate by pointing out a post’s grammatical or spelling errors. Frankly if anyone wanted to spend time on that issue, they’d have plenty to work with!

Lisa N

 

[AnAtheist]

Lisa N:

Actually the concept of freewill makes perfect sense.

No, free will was invented to solve the theodicy problem. It makes no sense whatsoever, if the Christian God exists. It makes perfect sense in my world though, where something can come from nothing (like an act of free will).

But I’m curious, do things HAVE to be logical? Most people are not.
Is the recent tsunami logical? Is logic your god?

Things and people follow laws and rules, and those laws are perfectly logical. Sure the recent tsunami is logical. It developed through the same laws all things and people must follow. What’s illogical is, that there is a loving god (small-caps intended), who sent that storm.

Logic is a tool to determine the truth, not truth itself.

Unlike Wolpreinger who claims this means I am losing the argument I pointed this out because I believe some people deliberately fail to capitalize the word God or Christian as a way of expressing their disdain. I think that’s a cheap shot and as ineffective as trying to obfuscate by pointing out a post’s grammatical or spelling errors.

No argument from me. I should know, how English spelling works, and be more careful. But usually I just write what’s in my mind and don’t think much about the spelling…

 

[Carl]

tlaloc

And you top it off by ignoring Occam’s Razor that the explanation that is simplest is the most likely and therefor requires the least amount of supporting evidence.

I guess you haven’t done all your homework here. William of Occam was a Catholic and a Franciscan to boot. He certainly had no intention of holding his famous Razor to religion’s throat.

 

[Carl]

AnAtheist

I’m a little perplexed by your logic. You seem to have difficulty settling on a definition of atheism. It must be a conviction of some sort. You deny that Something exists, yet you cannot seem to define exactly what it is that you deny exists. God … gods … Christian … pagan … If you would just say something like, *I deny any god exists * … we could get down to business.

Until you decide *what * you deny exists, I don’t think I care to participate any further in this thread because you are making of atheism so slippery a term that you can redefine it any time it suits you … believe me. I’ve seen atheists do it many times in many different forums. Only once have I ever encountered (in the New York Times forums) an atheist who flat out stated that he was certain no gods exist. He was a stubborn cuss, impossible to reach, but at least he took a clear and unequivocal position so that the debate could begin.

 

[Tlaloc]

Carl:

tlaloc

And you top it off by ignoring Occam’s Razor that the explanation that is simplest is the most likely and therefor requires the least amount of supporting evidence.

I guess you haven’t done all your homework here. William of Occam was a Catholic and a Franciscan to boot. He certainly had no intention of holding his famous Razor to religion’s throat.

What he intended is irrelevent. He gave us a useful tool, when and if that tools runs contrary to his particular faiths doesn’t matter. The tool still works.

 

[Carl]

Tlaloc

The tool still works.

Yes, if you would use a wheel to hammer a nail.

 

[Tlaloc]

Carl:

Tlaloc

The tool still works.

Yes, if you would use a wheel to hammer a nail.

Nonsense. I used Occam Razor correctly and for the purpose intended. I’m sorry that bothers you but it remains what it is.

 

[Katholikos]

I tried to be an atheist, and I spent several years in that black hole, but common sense overcame me. Actually, it was grace that overcame me.

JMJ Jay

Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

 

[Lisa_N]

Katholikos:

I tried to be an atheist, and I spent several years in that black hole, but common sense overcame me. Actually, it was grace that overcame me.

JMJ Jay

Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

Me too! I was thinking about this discussion and the futility of
trying to change minds although it is always interesting to
hear others’ perspectives. It really boils down to why would
I WANT to be an atheist? How would that benefit me, my
family, my friend, society? How would being an atheist
improve my life? I have seen nothing posted that provides
the slightest incentive to change my mind.

You can come up with all of the supposed logic to support
a position of non-belief but remember the first objective
in trying to change a person’s mind, WIFM, what’s in it
for me.

Nothing.

Lisa N