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TexanKnight
Guest
Witness testimony has weight.
The sad part about being LDS is everyone else has to be liars to make your church true.
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The sad part about being LDS is everyone else has to be liars to make your church true.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
You are right. That is exactly what I am calling them.
Paul ( Formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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iepuras
Guest
Maybe you should ask these questions with regards to Joseph Smith. Was he honest? Did he always seek to attack others’ beliefs? What type of spirit does he possess?
So should Woodward and Bernstein have not reported on the Watergate scandal because they had no way to validate what Deep Throat was telling them? Reporters often rely on sources who wish to remain anonymous to protect themselves. Should we stop listening to reporters who report based on information from anonymous sources?
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KathleenGee
Guest
I am now getting disturbed by what is coming out.
I remember Paul very much stating this about the leadership…but its significance just didn’t sink in.
Now it is appearing to me to be an institution that must be investigated by civil authorities.
I am not backing down.
The Mormons need the True Church instituted by Jesus Christ. The Mormons need to be liberated and I think of those women who have suffered and been in bondage by their past teachings, and the medical psychiatric issues coming out of residents living in Utah…etc…
I prayed for the Mormon people yesterday at a national shrine…and now today I can see the need so much more to pray for them, you included, Janderich!
I remember Paul very much stating this about the leadership…but its significance just didn’t sink in.
Now it is appearing to me to be an institution that must be investigated by civil authorities.
I am not backing down.
The Mormons need the True Church instituted by Jesus Christ. The Mormons need to be liberated and I think of those women who have suffered and been in bondage by their past teachings, and the medical psychiatric issues coming out of residents living in Utah…etc…
I prayed for the Mormon people yesterday at a national shrine…and now today I can see the need so much more to pray for them, you included, Janderich!
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TexanKnight
Guest
let us not lose sight of this
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TexanKnight
Guest
hree Meetings with a LDS General Authority, 2012- 2013
Grant Palmer
Editor Comment: Grant waited 6 months before releasing this report to the public because he wanted to make sure this is what the GA believed.
In mid-October 2012, a returned LDS Mission President contacted me to arrange a meeting. Several days later, he called again and said that a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy also wished to attend. He said the General Authority would attend on condition that I not name him or repeat any stories that would identify him.
He explained that neither of them, including the GA’s wife, believed the founding claims of the restoration were true. He clarified that they had read my book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, and had concluded that the LDS Church was not true; was not what it claimed to be. The GA often went to the MormonThink.com website for information and there discovered my book. The Mission President said he received my book from the GA.
We have at this writing met three times. We first met on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 and again February 14, 2013 at my house. On March 26, 2013 we convened at the GAs house. Upon entering my home for the first meeting the GA said, “We are here to learn.” I recognized him. He has been a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy for a number of years. He has served in several high profile assignments during this period. The following are the more important statements made by the GA during our first three meetings. We now meet monthly.
He said that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars to take care of any financial obligations they have. This money gift allows them to fully focus on the ministry. He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are “church broke,” meaning, will they do whatever they are told.
He said the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking. The junior six are told to observe, listen and learn and really only comment if they are asked. He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true.
He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly “because the people need it,” meaning the people need the church.
When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: “No, he doesn’t.” The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn’t expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.
When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. During his one on one assignments with an apostle, conversations were more familiar. He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on “his interactions with them.” Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss “truth issues,” meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church.
He said that the apostle’s lives are so completely and entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church, that many of them would probably die defending the church rather than admit the truth about Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church. The GA stated that my disciplinary action (which would have occurred on the final Sunday of October 2010 had I not resigned), was mandated/ordered/approved by the First Presidency of the Church. I said that if the apostles know the church is not true and yet order a disciplinary hearing for my writing a book that is almost certainly true regarding the foundational claims of the church, then they are corrupt even evil. He replied, “That’s right!”
The GA said the church is like a weakened dam. At first you don’t see cracks on the face; nevertheless, things are happening behind the scenes. Eventually, small cracks appear, and then the dam will “explode.” When it does, he said, the members are going to be “shocked” and will need scholars/historians like me to educate them regarding the Mormon past.
Grant Palmer
Editor Comment: Grant waited 6 months before releasing this report to the public because he wanted to make sure this is what the GA believed.
In mid-October 2012, a returned LDS Mission President contacted me to arrange a meeting. Several days later, he called again and said that a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy also wished to attend. He said the General Authority would attend on condition that I not name him or repeat any stories that would identify him.
He explained that neither of them, including the GA’s wife, believed the founding claims of the restoration were true. He clarified that they had read my book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, and had concluded that the LDS Church was not true; was not what it claimed to be. The GA often went to the MormonThink.com website for information and there discovered my book. The Mission President said he received my book from the GA.
We have at this writing met three times. We first met on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 and again February 14, 2013 at my house. On March 26, 2013 we convened at the GAs house. Upon entering my home for the first meeting the GA said, “We are here to learn.” I recognized him. He has been a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy for a number of years. He has served in several high profile assignments during this period. The following are the more important statements made by the GA during our first three meetings. We now meet monthly.
He said that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars to take care of any financial obligations they have. This money gift allows them to fully focus on the ministry. He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are “church broke,” meaning, will they do whatever they are told.
He said the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking. The junior six are told to observe, listen and learn and really only comment if they are asked. He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true.
He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly “because the people need it,” meaning the people need the church.
When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: “No, he doesn’t.” The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn’t expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.
When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. During his one on one assignments with an apostle, conversations were more familiar. He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on “his interactions with them.” Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss “truth issues,” meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church.
He said that the apostle’s lives are so completely and entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church, that many of them would probably die defending the church rather than admit the truth about Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church. The GA stated that my disciplinary action (which would have occurred on the final Sunday of October 2010 had I not resigned), was mandated/ordered/approved by the First Presidency of the Church. I said that if the apostles know the church is not true and yet order a disciplinary hearing for my writing a book that is almost certainly true regarding the foundational claims of the church, then they are corrupt even evil. He replied, “That’s right!”
The GA said the church is like a weakened dam. At first you don’t see cracks on the face; nevertheless, things are happening behind the scenes. Eventually, small cracks appear, and then the dam will “explode.” When it does, he said, the members are going to be “shocked” and will need scholars/historians like me to educate them regarding the Mormon past.
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kimg901
Guest
Sad, sad ,sad. 10 million plus souls being deceived for money. It really is the root of all evil. Its also sad that people like Janderich and other Mormons can chalk it up as opinion or false. Are they really that far from the Truth? After reading what Marie posted my stomach turned and I felt very sad for our Mormon friends.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Keep this revelation of Mormonism going…for the sake of truth of Jesus Christ and so that sinners can be reconciled to the Lord, and that they find redemption in the Blood of the Lord at Mass.
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TexanKnight
Guest
I will post it frequently.
Palmer was considered a very honest man until he spoke the truth about Mormonism…then they call him a liar…
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Marie5890
Guest
Im guessing you misunderstood that this was a commentary.
As oppose to what I posted was his telling of his personal experience with 3 meetings with a GA, specifically more senior member of the 1stQof70
You give them the same weight? A commentary vs his personal experience?
Wow…
That would be like my writing a commentary on the roll out of Obamacare vs my sharing the conversation I had with my mother on our experience in dealing with hospice when my step father was ill.
I see the difference, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you cant discern the difference.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Texan Knight.
I have not been that active with CAF for awhile and I am beginning adult faith formation in our parish. We have good (name removed by moderator)ut for the incoming pastor. We were looking for a theme…
To evangelize as Catholics in contrast to Mormonism, our work is to reconcile sinners back to God and to make present to the world Christ’s blood in the sacrifice of the Mass.
I went back and have been looking at info about all of this, and can see they are calling this man a liar.
If they are so good, then why are they not being open so people can find out for themselves.
May be there should be another thread with title that can steer people to this issue.
Again, if they have nothing to fear, then why don’t they become transparent? The Catholic Church has painfully had to deal with issues within our ranks, and it has been so painful. They want to take our place as the greatest and true Church, well they could learn from the experience of the past 20 years or so.
When a major communications tried to wipe out the Church regarding sex abuse during Holy Week, the Church saw throughout the country great numbers of conversions…and they were not Hispanic. Baltimore, if I recall correctly, was where the abuse cases and mismanagement began to arise. That Holy Week and then Easter Sunday saw 1,000 new Catholics come in.
Christ trims and prunes good fruit so they can bear more fruit. And if the tree is barren and does not bear good fruit, He takes it down. Then should Mormons be afraid if they are so convinced they are the right believers???
I have not been that active with CAF for awhile and I am beginning adult faith formation in our parish. We have good (name removed by moderator)ut for the incoming pastor. We were looking for a theme…
To evangelize as Catholics in contrast to Mormonism, our work is to reconcile sinners back to God and to make present to the world Christ’s blood in the sacrifice of the Mass.
I went back and have been looking at info about all of this, and can see they are calling this man a liar.
If they are so good, then why are they not being open so people can find out for themselves.
May be there should be another thread with title that can steer people to this issue.
Again, if they have nothing to fear, then why don’t they become transparent? The Catholic Church has painfully had to deal with issues within our ranks, and it has been so painful. They want to take our place as the greatest and true Church, well they could learn from the experience of the past 20 years or so.
When a major communications tried to wipe out the Church regarding sex abuse during Holy Week, the Church saw throughout the country great numbers of conversions…and they were not Hispanic. Baltimore, if I recall correctly, was where the abuse cases and mismanagement began to arise. That Holy Week and then Easter Sunday saw 1,000 new Catholics come in.
Christ trims and prunes good fruit so they can bear more fruit. And if the tree is barren and does not bear good fruit, He takes it down. Then should Mormons be afraid if they are so convinced they are the right believers???
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TexanKnight
Guest
my problem is this: Mormons are so transparent. When you get a calling, it is allegedly the Lord who confirms it before it is given. Palmer was given several callngs…yet the minute he steps out of line, he is a liar.
Same with me…I was given all kinds of calling…the minute I step out of line…I am a liar.
Look at the alleged witnesses to the book of mormon. When they left the church, they were all liars and scoundrels, but the minute they returned or before they left, they were beacons of integrity.
William Law was an honest man, until he spoke against js, he was a liar.
It is how the Mormons operate. You are wonderful and honest…until you say something against the lds church, then you are pained as a liar.
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twopekinguys
Guest
Wasn’t it Elder Jensen, lds historian that said mormons are leaving at a record pace? This quote is from USA Today..
I love it, each member of the 12 receives a million dollar gift, it takes 2 or 3 years for an apostle to learn the church is false (except for Uchtdorf of course), the church is weak and about ready to burst because of apostates, etc. etc.
"This year, Elder Marlin Jensen, the Mormon Church’s outgoing official historian, acknowledged that members are defecting from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints “in droves” and that the pace is increasing. "
Considering it came from one of your own, you might want to take stock of what he said.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Texanknight…
With your response, I immediately want to compare it to Catholics who leave…the response of Catholic parents and priests with whom the fallen away had once been ministered, be they when they were young or those who practiced later in life.
The first response is a great affliction and concern for the soul.
But the next stage is seeing faith and hope at work, that God works through mysterious ways, we are indeed living in dangerous times with loss of faith, and that with continued and unceasing prayer with confidence that comes from once feeling such a loss, each day is an opportunity to continue to serve them in love.
About the losses happening in Mormonism…again, the Quorum…how upset they are really about these droves leaving within Mormonism??? If this commentary is true, then how afflicted should they be as those who have left are now on equal par with them…minus the alleged…note, alleged million dollars.
With your response, I immediately want to compare it to Catholics who leave…the response of Catholic parents and priests with whom the fallen away had once been ministered, be they when they were young or those who practiced later in life.
The first response is a great affliction and concern for the soul.
But the next stage is seeing faith and hope at work, that God works through mysterious ways, we are indeed living in dangerous times with loss of faith, and that with continued and unceasing prayer with confidence that comes from once feeling such a loss, each day is an opportunity to continue to serve them in love.
About the losses happening in Mormonism…again, the Quorum…how upset they are really about these droves leaving within Mormonism??? If this commentary is true, then how afflicted should they be as those who have left are now on equal par with them…minus the alleged…note, alleged million dollars.
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Marie5890
Guest
I have no doubt that they are concerned for a verity of reasons.
One big hurdle ecclesial leaders have with those leave the various faith traditions, and that includes Mormon and Catholics alike, is that peoplecwho leave see their church as lacking credibility due to the sins of its leaders and Mormons and Catholics alike.
I know former Catholics who are as vehemity anti Catholics as former Mormons are anti mormon.
The similarity being…credibility issues, credibility issues in many different areas.
LDS leaders face the same challenges as Catholic leaders when it comes to credibility and I believe that is one reason there are more and more nonbelievers
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Well then you shouldn’t trust your so-called prophets because they lie, they attack other’s beliefs and possess a false spirit. So. Where does that leave you?
I’ve read a little more earlier today on Palmer’s claims, those who collaborate what he claims, but haven’t had time to finish it yet. It can take time to weed out Mormons who will attack anyone who speaks unfavorably against Mormons, and others who will glob onto anything that is unfavorable…people from both sides who are very vocal, but who don’t really provide anything relevant. So far, I’m seeing Palmer’s side as not making his experience up, but I’m open to evidence that would show otherwise.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Mainly, what I’m reading are people who claim this or that GA hinted at the same, or just outright said they didn’t believe one doctrine or all.
I think it explains a lot, as to the direction the leaders of the LDS church have taken, their back peddling on past doctrines. They don’t believe them. Which, hello, neither do I. Also explains the change in how the Mormon prophet is presented to the believing followers. Compare Young, who proclaimed what he taught was on the same level of scripture, to Hunter, who spoke in general conference against believing any individual teaching of the 15 leaders including himself. Explains a lot, when you think on it, they don’t really believe all or some of the claims of Mormonism and the “truth issues” were off the table for decades, from any discussion.
Now the “truth issues” are back on the table, but only in the form of providing just enough of the right sort of “truth”, meant to placate the sheep.
I don’t know how anyone can look at this and think that these 15 men believe the claims of their predecessors. So what do these men have after rejecting the claims of their predecessors? Their own claims? But Hunter warning the sheep to not listen to any one shepherd but only what all the shepherds agree on.
The current shepherds aren’t in agreement with the previous. What is agreed on then, but to keep the ship sailing??
They need a deus ex machina.
I think it explains a lot, as to the direction the leaders of the LDS church have taken, their back peddling on past doctrines. They don’t believe them. Which, hello, neither do I. Also explains the change in how the Mormon prophet is presented to the believing followers. Compare Young, who proclaimed what he taught was on the same level of scripture, to Hunter, who spoke in general conference against believing any individual teaching of the 15 leaders including himself. Explains a lot, when you think on it, they don’t really believe all or some of the claims of Mormonism and the “truth issues” were off the table for decades, from any discussion.
Now the “truth issues” are back on the table, but only in the form of providing just enough of the right sort of “truth”, meant to placate the sheep.
I don’t know how anyone can look at this and think that these 15 men believe the claims of their predecessors. So what do these men have after rejecting the claims of their predecessors? Their own claims? But Hunter warning the sheep to not listen to any one shepherd but only what all the shepherds agree on.
The current shepherds aren’t in agreement with the previous. What is agreed on then, but to keep the ship sailing??
They need a deus ex machina.
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Marie5890
Guest
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TexanKnight
Guest
For those who say Palmer is a liar, I say this:
I was taught, as a Mormon, that js translated the BoM by reading the gold book and translated. That is what the LDS Church taught.
Grant Palmer wrote that no, js had his head in his hat and would dictate the book.
In Rough Stone Rolling, Bushman admits that js stuck his head in his hat and dictated.
So, who was the liar? Palmer or the LDS Church?
It seems the credibility problem is NOT with Grant Palmer.
I read Palmer’s book years ago. It is very good and sheds a lot of light on the origins of the lds church.
I was taught, as a Mormon, that js translated the BoM by reading the gold book and translated. That is what the LDS Church taught.
Grant Palmer wrote that no, js had his head in his hat and would dictate the book.
In Rough Stone Rolling, Bushman admits that js stuck his head in his hat and dictated.
So, who was the liar? Palmer or the LDS Church?
It seems the credibility problem is NOT with Grant Palmer.
I read Palmer’s book years ago. It is very good and sheds a lot of light on the origins of the lds church.
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Marie5890
Guest
Ah! I was unaware the Palmer was the one (or one of the one’s) that brought to light the truth about Smith and the hat as the manner of “translation”… When I was LDS I was taught he looked thru the Urim and Thumim at the actual gold plates and translated them thru that means…Nothing was ever said about a hat
Thanks TK
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