To Former Mormons

[PaulDupre1]

If it wasn’t for CAF & the regular posters here, I wouldn’t have known of any of these issues.
To me this is pretty big, but it’s sad to know that none of this is discussed over here in the LDS community that I grew up with & still see due to my TBM parents. They’re either truly brainwashed & ignorant of the truth that is literally at their fingertips or they really have their heads buried in the sand about it all.

I think the vast majority of LDS, especially BICs, are not interested in whether the truth claims of the LDS church are true or not. They are LDS and that is that. It is the same with most religions. I doubt that most Catholics ever do an in-depth investigation of Church history and doctrine, either.

Most LDS, when they say “I know this church is true”, really mean “I like being in this church”. They don’t “know” much of anything about their religion. The “knowing” that the church is “true” is merely an artifact of LDS culture and tradition. IMHO.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[garyo49]

I spent years being angry at Mormonism and particularly Mormon leaders. I think it was made clear that LDS leaders will say anything when Hinckley denied a long held teaching and belief of all Mormons, and said “We don’t know.”. What a lie that was! I just can’t give them my anger any more. Nothing surprises me anymore about it’s teachings or it’s leaders. I’m more surprised at people who continue on as Mormons.

I have the same problem. I am still upset with the Mormon church. I’ve tried really hard to be forgiving and charitable toward them, but it’s hard for me to let go because my wife is still a true believing Mormon and I still have to deal with it because of her. I’ve tried to point out to her how there are so many problems with the origin of the church and it’s founder J. Smith. I can’t see where there is any way that he could be believable because if you study their history and Smith, you come to see that he was such a liar and prevaricator. There is overwhelming evidence against his story and the Book of Mormon. The only way it is even mildly believable is to be brainwashed like my wife. If you look at it objectively it doesn’t take you long to see how it was made up as Smith went along. I said to my wife one day, do you realize that in Smiths short ministry his view of of the nature of God went from trinitarian in 1830 to believing that everyone can become a God in 1844 and there are as many Gods as there are sand in the sea? She said to me, “well, you know we believe in continuing revelation.” I said does that mean God changed his idea of his own nature? That is Mormonism. I’ve read a lot of Grant Palmer’s writings and I believe him. He was a Mormon that had the moral courage to come out and point out a lot of problems with the “official Mormon history” The Church tried to excommunicate him, but he promised them that if they wouldn’t ex him, he wouldn’t do anything to promote the book, “An Insiders View of Mormon Origins”, that got him in trouble. He wanted to keep his membership in the church. He wasn’t excommunicated then, but a few years later they found out that he mentioned his book in a paper that appeared in some journal in the midwest and they were off again trying to ex him. By then he was so fed up with the whole thing that he just resigned. He worked for the church for 35 years as a seminary teacher.

 

[garyo49]

Here is more “truth” from Grant Palmer, this time about LDS and Catholics, in a Salt Lake Tribune article entitled “Commentary: Jesus stressed kind behavior, not rituals, to get to heaven”:
Do you still believe him? Is he telling the truth in this article?

Yes I still believe him because I know that most everything he says in his book, “An Insiders View” can be validated. Grant is entitled to his own opinion about religion. The beef our Lord had with the Pharisees and Scribes in Matthew ch 15 was that they put more importance to the things that they had added to the law than the law it’s self. Things like Mormons have added to be saved, like the word of wisdom, temple ordinances ( married in the temple for all eternity even though our Lord that the mormon church is named for, said in the resurrection they are neither married nor given in marriage, but are as angels) Baptism and marriage sealings for the dead even though the book of mormon says in Alma ch 34:

"And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
“Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; **for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” **

Also 10 percent tithing on gross income mandatory to enter the highest mormon heavenly kingdom, and on and on and on.

As Catholics we believe that we have to participate in the Sacraments; receive Holy Communion minimum once a year, confess our sins at least once a year, be baptized and confirmed. We believe that we have to keep the commandments and if we die in a state of sin we go to Hell just like it says in the BOM verses above. We believe that we must perform corporal works of mercy as in Matthew ch. 25, to feed the hungry; to give drink to the thirsty; to clothe the naked; to harbour the harbourless; to visit the sick; to ransom the captive; to bury the dead.

We do have a devotion to our Blessed Mother, the Mother of God. We believe in the communion of saints. We revere our saints as examples of those who have led holy lives. We believe we can ask for their intersession, but it is not necessary for our salvation.

 

[TexanKnight]

Here is more “truth” from Grant Palmer, this time about LDS and Catholics, in a Salt Lake Tribune article entitled “Commentary: Jesus stressed kind behavior, not rituals, to get to heaven”:
Do you still believe him? Is he telling the truth in this article?

Yes. Yes I do. Why would he lie? We have proven the LDS Church has lied about the the beginnings of the LDS Church. We KNOW it. So, if credibility is the issue, Palmer has more than the LDS Church.

So, Janderich, do the math…

 

[KathleenGee]

using rituals to get to heaven…this is the spin put out by some American evangelicals who hold on to such ideas about Catholics, but likewise refuse to understand how we truly believe.

I am praying every day for the truth to come to light through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary…of Zion.

 

[Marie5890]

Anyone who is questioning Grant Palmer’s sincerity and credibility has not really researched and looked into why he has gotten to where he is right now.

He was never ever seeking to leave the LDS Church. He was seeking, as a historian, that the facts were as oppose to the myths and legends that always pop up in any history. There is plenty of myths and legends in even Christian history generally and Catholicism specifically.

He was and is being what any good historian seeks; to be credible

 

[garyo49]

I wouldn’t worry too much about this. Nameless general authorities and nameless mission presidents. This sure seems convenient to me. With this dubious shadow of authority he can now say whatever he wants and some will believe him.

I love it, each member of the 12 receives a million dollar gift, it takes 2 or 3 years for an apostle to learn the church is false (except for Uchtdorf of course), the church is weak and about ready to burst because of apostates, etc. etc.

I don’t know who said this or where I heard it; The definition of a religious person is, they believe every negative thing they hear about their neighbors religion, but not one about their own religion. If your Mormon apologists would give Catholics the same latitude that they give the deceiver Joseph Smith you would all be Catholics. How can anyone believe someone like Smith, a person with such a poor character. If you need examples I will provide them gladly.

 

[TOmNossor]

Anyone who is questioning Grant Palmer’s sincerity and credibility has not really researched and looked into why he has gotten to where he is right now.

He was never ever seeking to leave the LDS Church. He was seeking, as a historian, that the facts were as oppose to the myths and legends that always pop up in any history. There is plenty of myths and legends in even Christian history generally and Catholicism specifically.

He was and is being what any good historian seeks; to be credible

There are things about Grant Palmer that I have always liked and respected. That he maintained his belief in Christ as he exited the CoJCoLDS would probably be the prime example.
I remember hearing a few times that the Pope and other Catholic leaders had locked up in the Vatican proof that the CoJCoLDS was a restoration (or that a restoration was needed or …). I didn’t believe that and I have heard it a few times. I do not believe the 15 leaders of the church are secret disbelievers and it is remarkable that so many folks here are willing to believe this.

There are three reasons I do not believe that the leaders of the CoJCoLDS are secret disbelievers.

1. I have heard from folks like John Dehlin that the leaders of the church often do not know the things about its origins that I know. I see how Bishops and Stake Presidents are selected and I see absolutely no reason to believe that the highest leaders of the church are any more historically informed than I am, and plenty of reasons to suspect that they (on average) are not.
2. That I know these things and believe leads me to wonder how 15 folks who may or may not know them would disbelieve AND perpetuate a fraud of such proportions. I have long recognized that there are numerous folks like me who KNOW the history of the church in all the detail any critic could ever request of us and yet we still believe. I also recognize that the different between a believer who knows this stuff and a former believer who left as they learned this stuff is not a product of their intelligence. As one who once viewed himself as “spiritually handicapped” and who does not consider himself a pinnacle of spirituality or virtue, I also do not believe being “in-tune with the Spirit” is determinative (or at least not solely determinative). Remember, 1000 problems do not make a doubt.
3. Finally, my limited interaction with leaders of the church suggests to me that these are honest wonderful people, imperfect, but not flawed in a way that would be a disgrace humanity (living a lie).

a. So, did Grant Palmer lie? Maybe.
b. Did the unnamed GA lie? Maybe.
c. Did someone in this chain of events misunderstand? Very possible. I have on multiple occasions witnessed folks who mistake knowledge of a problem with lack of faith. This is not a LDS problem. A former Catholic nun told me that she could prove Catholicism was not true and even share the info with a former Catholic friend of mine. She didn’t know anything that he and I didn’t already know.

So, I find a, b, or c to be more likely than the conclusion shared by Grant, but c has the advantage that I do not need to impugn anyone’s character (and Grant is not above reproach in this area, just like us all I suspect).
Charity,TOm

 

[KathleenGee]

Having considered the religious life with North American sisters, checking out 4 different congregations, listening to their ideas, hearing a convert from New Age tell me when she went to a New Age conference in Seattle headed by a former Catholic nun, who then stated there…‘Catholics do not realize how many convents across the country have covens in them’…I was so glad I did not join.

I told my Dominican pastor then that in each one I sensed the place would lead me to hell, not heaven.

His response: “You would have.”

 

[Marie5890]

Having considered the religious life with North American sisters, checking out 4 different congregations, listening to their ideas, hearing a convert from New Age tell me when she went to a New Age conference in Seattle headed by a former Catholic nun, who then stated there…‘Catholics do not realize how many convents across the country have covens in them’…I was so glad I did not join.

I told my Dominican pastor then that in each one I sensed the place would lead me to hell, not heaven.

His response: “You would have.”

 

[TexanKnight]

There are things about Grant Palmer that I have always liked and respected. That he maintained his belief in Christ as he exited the CoJCoLDS would probably be the prime example.
I remember hearing a few times that the Pope and other Catholic leaders had locked up in the Vatican proof that the CoJCoLDS was a restoration (or that a restoration was needed or …). I didn’t believe that and I have heard it a few times.

Yeah, I heard from LDS leaders that js translated the B of M while reading the plates. Turns out that was a lie…next?

I do not believe the 15 leaders of the church are secret disbelievers and it is remarkable that so many folks here are willing to believe this.

I DO beieve it. I believe it because I do not believe the 15 leaders are idiots. i believe it because they have shown that they know better than to excavate Palmyra…

There are three reasons I do not believe that the leaders of the CoJCoLDS are secret disbelievers.

1. I have heard from folks like John Dehlin that the leaders of the church often do not know the things about its origins that I know. I see how Bishops and Stake Presidents are selected and I see absolutely no reason to believe that the highest leaders of the church are any more historically informed than I am, and plenty of reasons to suspect that they (on average) are not.

Nice try. Really. But it is hard to beieve that the guys who instruct everyone else and make such bold claims do so from positions of ignorance. Plus, they are the ones with the hotline to God as “prophets”. That points fails.

1. That I know these things and believe leads me to wonder how 15 folks who may or may not know them would disbelieve AND perpetuate a fraud of such proportions. I have long recognized that there are numerous folks like me who KNOW the history of the church in all the detail any critic could ever request of us and yet we still believe. I also recognize that the different between a believer who knows this stuff and a former believer who left as they learned this stuff is not a product of their intelligence. As one who once viewed himself as “spiritually handicapped” and who does not consider himself a pinnacle of spirituality or virtue, I also do not believe being “in-tune with the Spirit” is determinative (or at least not solely determinative). Remember, 1000 problems do not make a doubt.

Which is why they are each given a million. Keeps them “honest”. They all know there is no evidence at all to support any lds claims. They choose to buy the land in Palmayra so no one else can excavate it. It is easy to believe Palmer when armed with facts.

1. Finally, my limited interaction with leaders of the church suggests to me that these are honest wonderful people, imperfect, but not flawed in a way that would be a disgrace humanity (living a lie).

I have met some of them, too. I have been in L Tom Perry’s office. Yes…they all appear to be good people. But that does not mean they are incapable of deception with a million reasons to do so.

a. So, did Grant Palmer lie? Maybe.
b. Did the unnamed GA lie? Maybe.
c. Did someone in this chain of events misunderstand? Very possible. I have on multiple occasions witnessed folks who mistake knowledge of a problem with lack of faith. This is not a LDS problem. A former Catholic nun told me that she could prove Catholicism was not true and even share the info with a former Catholic friend of mine. She didn’t know anything that he and I didn’t already know.

So, I find a, b, or c to be more likely than the conclusion shared by Grant, but c has the advantage that I do not need to impugn anyone’s character (and Grant is not above reproach in this area, just like us all I suspect).

Here is the problem with this:

First, when determining credibility, you look at who has the reason to lie. What is Palmer’s motivation? I see none. Do the leaders have motivation? Absolutely. A lot of it. Even without the million, power and authority and prestige are great motivators.

Next, you look at who has a history of lying. Palmer? Not that anyone has demonstrated. The lds church? yes. a lot. How the B of M was translated is just one example.

So, you have Palmer with no history and no motivation vs. the LDS leaders who have a huge history of deception AND motivation.

Seems pretty easy to decide…

Charity,TOm

 

[debbie_h]

I think the vast majority of LDS, especially BICs, are not interested in whether the truth claims of the LDS church are true or not. They are LDS and that is that. It is the same with most religions. I doubt that most Catholics ever do an in-depth investigation of Church history and doctrine, either.

Most LDS, when they say “I know this church is true”, really mean “I like being in this church”. They don’t “know” much of anything about their religion. The “knowing” that the church is “true” is merely an artifact of LDS culture and tradition. IMHO.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

There is certainly a huge burden placed on our shoulders. if we are to go beyond the church approved teachings & dig deeper, to read anything viewed as anti-Mormon literature we have that fear of being apostates & going to hell, breaking ourselves from our eternal families… None of it makes sense, why push us into church education like Sunday school, relief society, seminary, primary etc for us to ‘study’ the church if they don’t want us to study from multiple sources to learn the truth? If they have nothing to hide then It wouldn’t an issue, right?

 

[KathleenGee]

They put alot of baggage on you in regards to having your family and then not having your family…what kind of family would disown you?

I have some in my family who went to Catholic school, but were pulled in all sorts of directions. Many of us do.

 

[PaulDupre1]

There is certainly a huge burden placed on our shoulders. if we are to go beyond the church approved teachings & dig deeper, to read anything viewed as anti-Mormon literature we have that fear of being apostates & going to hell, breaking ourselves from our eternal families… None of it makes sense, why push us into church education like Sunday school, relief society, seminary, primary etc for us to ‘study’ the church if they don’t want us to study from multiple sources to learn the truth? If they have nothing to hide then It wouldn’t an issue, right?

LDS Sunday school, seminary, institute and all the rest are not education, but indoctrination. The LDS church would be in much better shape today if they had actually educated their members in church history and the development and changes in doctrine. Most LDS who leave the church over historical/doctrinal issues say the same thing: “The church lied to me!”

The current LDS attempts to appear transparent are far too little, far too late.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[TexanKnight]

I am curious as to why the Mormons here will not truly respond. And when they do, they refuse to address the issues I have raised regarding the LDS leaders lying in the past, thereby causing a credibility issue, while, at the same time, they cannot provide any proof or motive that Grant Palmer is lying.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Having considered the religious life with North American sisters, checking out 4 different congregations, listening to their ideas, hearing a convert from New Age tell me when she went to a New Age conference in Seattle headed by a former Catholic nun, who then stated there…‘Catholics do not realize how many convents across the country have covens in them’…I was so glad I did not join.

I told my Dominican pastor then that in each one I sensed the place would lead me to hell, not heaven.

His response: “You would have.”

Convents gone gnostic is at the heart of the Vatican looking at, and putting restrictions on, nuns in the U.S.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I remember hearing a few times that the Pope and other Catholic leaders had locked up in the Vatican proof that the CoJCoLDS was a restoration (or that a restoration was needed or …). I didn’t believe that and I have heard it a few times.

Who have you heard it from? What was their evidence to make such a ridiculous claim?

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Rebecca,

I am from Seattle and know alot of ‘stuff’ going back, and interesting that the archbishop there is dealing with it.

My point is in regards to Tom’s comment of hearing from a former sister and some others with some kind of info about the Church, I personally could not listen much to former sisters from USA. We had the worst crisis for women religious in the apostolate. The contemplative orders were not so affected. I think the secular, information based world now has such an impact on people’s faith and the intense daily activity.

There was a large congregation in L A that got into Jungian psychology and finding themselves…within themselves…and the congregation was literally wiped out with only a few remaining.

Religion is not about exaltation of self for self’s sake.

 

[TexanKnight]

Editor Comment: Grant waited 6 months before releasing this report to the public because he wanted to make sure this is what the GA believed.

In mid-October 2012, a returned LDS Mission President contacted me to arrange a meeting. Several days later, he called again and said that a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy also wished to attend. He said the General Authority would attend on condition that I not name him or repeat any stories that would identify him.

He explained that neither of them, including the GA’s wife, believed the founding claims of the restoration were true. He clarified that they had read my book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, and had concluded that the LDS Church was not true; was not what it claimed to be. The GA often went to the MormonThink.com website for information and there discovered my book. The Mission President said he received my book from the GA.

We have at this writing met three times. We first met on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 and again February 14, 2013 at my house. On March 26, 2013 we convened at the GAs house. Upon entering my home for the first meeting the GA said, “We are here to learn.” I recognized him. He has been a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy for a number of years. He has served in several high profile assignments during this period. The following are the more important statements made by the GA during our first three meetings. We now meet monthly.

He said that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars to take care of any financial obligations they have. This money gift allows them to fully focus on the ministry. He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are “church broke,” meaning, will they do whatever they are told.

He said the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking. The junior six are told to observe, listen and learn and really only comment if they are asked. He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true.

He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly “because the people need it,” meaning the people need the church.

When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: “No, he doesn’t.” The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn’t expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.

When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. During his one on one assignments with an apostle, conversations were more familiar. He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on “his interactions with them.” Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss “truth issues,” meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church.

He said that the apostle’s lives are so completely and entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church, that many of them would probably die defending the church rather than admit the truth about Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church. The GA stated that my disciplinary action (which would have occurred on the final Sunday of October 2010 had I not resigned), was mandated/ordered/approved by the First Presidency of the Church. I said that if the apostles know the church is not true and yet order a disciplinary hearing for my writing a book that is almost certainly true regarding the foundational claims of the church, then they are corrupt even evil. He replied, “That’s right!”

The GA said the church is like a weakened dam. At first you don’t see cracks on the face; nevertheless, things are happening behind the scenes. Eventually, small cracks appear, and then the dam will “explode.” When it does, he said, the members are going to be “shocked” and will need scholars/historians like me to educate them regarding the Mormon past.

 

[KathleenGee]

John Paul said some time ago…that the soul is made of truth.

The soul hungers for truth, especially the truth of God because is in essence, Truth.

So at first if people do not seem to believe the truth when they first hear it, truth continues to work its way down into the soul, until it faces it and the person decides whether or not to accept or deny Truth.

Again, I think it necessary, as this is this gentleman’s cross right now to carry so much on his shoulder…‘the lance that is used to open the infection so it can come out’…a phrase Fr Mitch Pacwa shared in his observation over a past cross of mine.

Things take time and prayer. I have alot of concern and burden for the Mormon people and can only continue to pray for them. I don’t have the experience others here have being former Mormons. I can only pray for the truth to come to light.