To live by faith

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Just to let you know I have not forgotten about this, I will try to reply later ( this weekend?). Am caught up with work at the moment (making up time for the week long leave I took last week:) )

God Bless.
No problem, Benedictus2.

I appreciate your posts and understand your position.

I am confident you will “produce the goods” in due course; therefore, I look forward to your reply which, I am sure, will do justice to the questions posed.

God bless you, In Christ Craig
 
Hi Tom,

I appreciate your comments.

However, I would ask is there really a connection between Philippians 1:1-6 and John 20:21-23. I, for one, do not think so.

Also, is it not possible that the word Bishop as it appears in Philippians 1 :1-6 and John 20:21-23 simply conveys the meaning of ‘OVERSEER’. This is the view that I personally think does better justice to the text.

I am not here, you will understand, to challenge - in any way - the faith of Catholics. I am only here to learn about what Catholics believe in a mature and informed way. I respect Catholics as you know. There are large amounts of Catholic dogma that I am blessed by. However, there are some differences, too. This is one such difference that sets up a ROAD BLOCK and prevents me getting past a certain point in exploring Catholic teaching. Do you understand?

To be perfectly frank, I fail to see how John 20:21-23 is advanced by Catholics as a substantial basis for the MAGISTERIUM.

I look forward to your comments.

May God bless you, In Christ Craig
I understand completely,we have that well grounded. The Bishops were the protectors of the Christian Faith and teachings in their geographic areas but never considered seperate from each other or Rome where the one Bishop held the seat of Peter, the most authoritative for a single person. Bishops were teachers but also had their Deacons and so forth. Aside from the number of faithful in their geographic area, their position was much as it is today. Tell me what it is you think this position is and I will help you with it. I probably missed it earlier in the thread, I’m sorry.
 
Hi Tom,

I appreciate your comments.

I am not here, you will understand, to challenge - in any way - the faith of Catholics. I am only here to learn about what Catholics believe in a mature and informed way. I respect Catholics as you know. There are large amounts of Catholic dogma that I am blessed by. However, there are some differences, too. This is one such difference that sets up a ROAD BLOCK and prevents me getting past a certain point in exploring Catholic teaching. Do you understand?

To be perfectly frank, I fail to see how John 20:21-23 is advanced by Catholics as a substantial basis for the MAGISTERIUM.

I look forward to your comments.

May God bless you, In Christ Craig
Perhaps Raub has already covered this question so I will wait to see if you have another.
Craig, you do not have to explain your position when you ask a question to me, I understand how you mean them and you and I are well grounded in that respect. 🙂
 
As Catholics ‘live by faith’ you often hear them refer to the EXPOSITION and BENEDICTION, in connection with the Blessed Sacrament.
What do these terms refer to? In what context do they refer to? Do these concepts apply to every Mass? How often are these practises carried out? What form do they take?
I love exposition of the Blessed Sacrament.

You know that we believe Communion IS the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ our Lord and King. Well, we adore Him. That is what Exposition is. A consecrated host is put in a container usually made of gold or silver and covered with symbols that represent sacrifice, the Lamb of God, etc. and usually has rays of gold to represent Our Lord’s divinity coming from where the host is shown (this part is clear so you can see the host within). This is called a “Monstrance”. Here are some examples:

images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.catholicsupply.com/CHURCHS/10-416-Monstrance-Lg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.catholicsupply.com/CHURCHS/monstrance.html&h=864&w=432&sz=75&hl=en&start=4&um=1&usg=__IucXd101xZ3_eG2BnDaPrHQ3yhY=&tbnid=MJ4OQSA7kRiO_M:&tbnh=145&tbnw=73&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmonstrance%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

These are placed on the altar in a church and the people come to pray in front of it, to adore Him, to give Him thanks for His gifts and crosses. Generally for an hour (in reparition for the hour the apostles could not stay awake in Gesthemane) some churches have “Perpetual Adoration” where someone is always with Christ, adoring and praising Him. The parishoners volunteer in shifts.

Benediction is Exposition plus, and beautiful. There’s almost a liturgy to it, though not a set one, it can change from church to church. There are always, however, hymns, candles, incense, and occasionally readings or prayer of the faithful. Here’s a video of Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament (The song playing is ‘Tantum Ergo’ and it’s a well known and loved traditional Catholic Hymn of praise):

youtube.com/watch?v=UUwJdd1_Jdk
Although, out of sheer honesty, I admit there are some aspects of Catholic teaching that I struggle with, I would also acknowledge that I am learning heaps here by asking these questions. My faith is being strengthened and my appreciation for Catholics who are true to their faith is being deepened.
Craig, you’re learning Catholicism the best possible way. You’re tackling issues as they come, and asking questions from Catholics. You’re probably the most respectful person I’ve ever read on this forum. Remeber that there are aspects of the faith that we all struggle with, none of us are perfect. We obey, however. I have a friend who says constantly “Well I don’t believe that Jesus would want me to _____ (fill in the blank)” and I always respond with “Well, whether you believe He would or not, does He want you to?” If we initially completely agree with and understand every aspect of our Faith then did our beliefs really come from God, or did they come from us?
 
The text says that the eleven disciples were present. Well, ten I guess I should say, as Thomas was absent at this point. But the point is that none other than the original apostles were present.

Then, in Acts 1:20 (KJV), we read Peter say of Judas Iscariot, “His bishopric let another take.”

The 12 disciples, therefore, were bishops. No one other than these is referred to as present in this encounter with Jesus. This also is where He sends into them the Holy Spirit, gives them direct authority to forgive sins on His behalf, and breathes on them, which is directly the same word choice for infallibility that is used in the passage in Timothy that says all Scripture is “God-breathed,” word choice that you and I agreed means infallibility in that verse.

No one but these ten are reported as being present in this particular meeting with Jesus. In an Epistle (I think 2 Corinthians?), Paul says that Jesus later appeared to hundreds of his followers together. However, in this scene, when He imparts the Holy Spirit and breathes on His disciples, He only appeared to the bishops. It was a special, sacred authority He imparted to them and their successors (as Acts 1 proves, they had a Biblical practice of appointing successors in authority).

There are a lot more passages than this that refer to the Magesterium and its supernatural authority. This is one. I still intend to get you the others later.
Thanks Lief,

I look forward to getting the other verses later.

Cheers, In Christ Craig
 
Perhaps Raub has already covered this question so I will wait to see if you have another.
Craig, you do not have to explain your position when you ask a question to me, I understand how you mean them and you and I are well grounded in that respect. 🙂
Thanks Tom,

I really appreciate your kind, sensitive and understanding Christian Spirit.

This really means a lot to me. Your point is taken and respected, and I will not raise it again.

Your understanding, here, gives me a genuine confidence to post in sincerity and allow God to truly lead us. This is the best possible outcome for everyone.

I thank you for the fellowship between us, grounded in Christ.

God bless you, In Christ Craig
 
I love exposition of the Blessed Sacrament.

You know that we believe Communion IS the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ our Lord and King. Well, we adore Him. That is what Exposition is. A consecrated host is put in a container usually made of gold or silver and covered with symbols that represent sacrifice, the Lamb of God, etc. and usually has rays of gold to represent Our Lord’s divinity coming from where the host is shown (this part is clear so you can see the host within). This is called a “Monstrance”. Here are some examples:

images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.catholicsupply.com/CHURCHS/10-416-Monstrance-Lg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.catholicsupply.com/CHURCHS/monstrance.html&h=864&w=432&sz=75&hl=en&start=4&um=1&usg=__IucXd101xZ3_eG2BnDaPrHQ3yhY=&tbnid=MJ4OQSA7kRiO_M:&tbnh=145&tbnw=73&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmonstrance%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

These are placed on the altar in a church and the people come to pray in front of it, to adore Him, to give Him thanks for His gifts and crosses. Generally for an hour (in reparition for the hour the apostles could not stay awake in Gesthemane) some churches have “Perpetual Adoration” where someone is always with Christ, adoring and praising Him. The parishoners volunteer in shifts.

Benediction is Exposition plus, and beautiful. There’s almost a liturgy to it, though not a set one, it can change from church to church. There are always, however, hymns, candles, incense, and occasionally readings or prayer of the faithful. Here’s a video of Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament (The song playing is ‘Tantum Ergo’ and it’s a well known and loved traditional Catholic Hymn of praise):

youtube.com/watch?v=UUwJdd1_Jdk

Craig, you’re learning Catholicism the best possible way. You’re tackling issues as they come, and asking questions from Catholics. You’re probably the most respectful person I’ve ever read on this forum. Remeber that there are aspects of the faith that we all struggle with, none of us are perfect. We obey, however. I have a friend who says constantly “Well I don’t believe that Jesus would want me to _____ (fill in the blank)” and I always respond with “Well, whether you believe He would or not, does He want you to?” If we initially completely agree with and understand every aspect of our Faith then did our beliefs really come from God, or did they come from us?
Thanks Rawb,

I must say, you’ve done it again!

What an excellent post - you have answered my questions on the EXPOSITION and BENEDICTION in clear, practical and thorough terms. You have a way of explaining these practical things that is fully satisfying.

Cheers, In Christ Craig
 
By the way, can you summarise for me Saint Thomas Aquinas’ view of Predestination and how that differs with the Molinist view?
Hi Craig,

First of all I would like to say that this is probably the most difficult post I have ever done in the sense of trying to come to grips with the subtler issues.

Thank you for your question. It caused me to read up more on the subject ( I thought I had already put this to bed on the last thread:)

First a disclaimer. There is always the possibility that I may not have completely comprehended the Molinist and Thomist views so may not be presenting it correctly and the terminologies sometimes sound gobbledegook but there is just no getting around it.

Definitions :
Efficacious (irresistible) grace
is a special gif of God by which a soul incapable by its own natural resources to perform an act conducive to eternal salvation, is given supernatural powers to freely perform said act.
Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision.(wikipedia)

The issue:
The question for both the Molinist and the Thomist is how to reconcile the efficacy of grace and the infallibility of its effect with the freedom of the human because they seem to be mutually exclusive.

When does the infallible effect of efficacious grace come into effect without impairing the freedom of the will?

There is also the subtler question of when does the will under the influence of grace, move from being a mere natural faculty to actuality.

The differences:
Thomists: start from the point of efficacious grace
Molinists: proceed from a clear concept of freedom.
Thomist: maintains that God gives the grace only to those He has chosen (the elect)
Molinist: believes that God bestows the grace on everyone.
Thomist: Grace is intrinsically efficacious
Molinist: Grace extrinsically efficacious
Thomis: The will moves from potency into act by will of God
Molinist: The will freely consents to prevenient grace and this consent renders the completely sufficient grace efficacious.

My comments:
Based on the documents I’ve read (which is far from extensive), it seems to me that the Thomist position is almost similar to the Calvinist, because it posits that the will is moved to act by grace. To my thinking, if grace is efficacious such that it’s effect is infallible, the response from the will is no longer free.

I incline towards the Molinist view because to my thinking, this is more reconcilable with a God who is Love (as revealed in Scripture). If we take the Thomist view, then damnation becomes the sole act of God and not contingent at all upon man’s response to grace. Since God is the creator and has infallible foreknowledge, the Thomist view paints a God that creates man for the sole reason of damning them (as explained by invincible ignorance).

The expressed view of the Church is that God created us for himself.
Unless I have misunderstood Thomism, its thesis could only be reconciled with a loving God who made us for Himself, if we posit that though there is a Hell, it is highly unlikely that anyone will end up there since grace is efficacious and God loves everyone equally.

I think however that grace is not always efficacious but always sufficient.

My biggest problem with the subject of predestination is that God’s Infinite Love, which should be one of the premises, does not seem to have been taken into consideration at all. To my mind, this should be the first premise and the other two (grace and free will) proceed from it.

Thomism’s objection to Molinism is that the latter, due to its over-emphasis on man’s freedom of will, diminishes the supremacy of God over His Creation.

However, I personally think that this objection is without basis because it can be argued that it is still God who wills that this is the way that grace and free will should play out. God is still the one who decided to effect salvation in this manner; that in pulling us out of the ravine, He would require us to place our hands on His, even though He could quite easily have yanked us out without our cooperation.

(continue on next post) 1/2
 
By the way, can you summarise for me Saint Thomas Aquinas’ view of Predestination and how that differs with the Molinist view?
continuation 2/2

The Thomist and Molinist view I think can be reconciled if we situate the former as operative during our last moment, and the latter during our lifetime.

The way I see it, the action of grace on the will in the Molinist view can be somewhat compared to building muscles. The more you exercise a particular muscle the more you increase the muscle mass and the easier the exercise becomes.

To apply to the Molinist view, sufficient grace is given so that the will can respond with a yes, and if the response is a yes, then the infallible conclusion to goodness ensues and so it goes during our lifetime. Sufficient grace is always given to elicit a yes from us. But not being efficacious, it is therefore fallible. Our assent to grace however effects a change in the soul such that the merely sufficient grace becomes efficacious. The more we say yes to God the easier it is to say yes.
Such that at the end of our lives, saying yes is the only way we could have responded to God.

Another angle which I have looked at (but which is not totally clear in my mind as yet) is the Eternal Now.

Both the Thomist and the Molinist approach the question of pre-destination from a space time continuum and thus limited by the linearity of time. But God is in eternity which some have explained as an eternal Now. But how to incorporate this in the above is still not completely organized in my head.

As a last disclaimer though, these comments are all just my musings and I am no theologian:D .
 
As Catholics ‘live by faith’ you often hear them refer to the EXPOSITION and BENEDICTION, in connection with the Blessed Sacrament.

What do these terms refer to? In what context do they refer to? Do these concepts apply to every Mass? How often are these practises carried out? What form do they take?

Although, out of sheer honesty, I admit there are some aspects of Catholic teaching that I struggle with, I would also acknowledge that I am learning heaps here by asking these questions. My faith is being strengthened and my appreciation for Catholics who are true to their faith is being deepened.

God bless you, In Christ Craig
I think someone else has answered this very well but I thought I would just add a little bit more info…

The Eucharist came to be reserved outside of Mass for the distribution to the sick. Then the monks started carrying them around as they travelled. One of the earliest accounts of reserving the Host was that of St Basil (years 300s) reserving a third of the Eucharist above the altar.

The first definitive statement on the Real Presence was made by Pope Gregory in response to a public denial of the Real presence by Berangarius, a French Archdeacon (circa 1000s). The public adoration of the Blessed Sacrament began around that time.

I am inserting an extract from a talk I gave on the Abiding Presence of Jesus int the Blessed Sacrament.

In one of his essays on the Eucharist, Pope Benedict wrote that when we pray before the Eucharist we know that God has already answered our prayer because
Slide 2
The Eucharist is God as an answer

When I was meditating over this statement this quite comical but sad scene flashed in my head.

Picture this: There we are praying for health, wealth, happiness and success and then God says: “Child I have decided to answer your prayer so here I am, I am giving you my very self.”

And we go: “Woah! Lord. Hold it right there. I was praying TO you, not FOR you. Just give me health, wealth, happiness and success.””

In another book (Jesus of Nazareth) Pope Benedict asked this question: If Jesus did not come to bring an end to war, famine, suffering. What did he bring? His answer :

Slide 3
Jesus has brought God.

Here again we have God answering our prayer with Himself.

A similar passage in the Bible: Luke Ch 11: 13, says pretty much the same thing:

Slide 4
If you then, evil as you are, know how to give your children what is good, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him’.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

At the Benediction, the Divine Praises is recited which goes:

Blessed Be God
Blessed Be His Holy Name
Blessed be Jesus Christ, true God and true man.
Blessed be the name of Jesus
Blessed be His most Sacred Heart
Blessed be His most Prescious Blood
Blessed Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
Blessed be the Holy Spirit the Paraclete.
Blessed be the great Mother of God, Mary Most Holy
Blessed be her Holy and Immaculate Conception
Blessed be her glorious assumption
Blessed be the name of Mary, Virgin and Mother
Blessed be St Joseph her most chaste spouse
Blessed be God in his angesl and in his saints.
 
continuation 2/2

The Thomist and Molinist view I think can be reconciled if we situate the former as operative during our last moment, and the latter during our lifetime.

The way I see it, the action of grace on the will in the Molinist view can be somewhat compared to building muscles. The more you exercise a particular muscle the more you increase the muscle mass and the easier the exercise becomes.

To apply to the Molinist view, sufficient grace is given so that the will can respond with a yes, and if the response is a yes, then the infallible conclusion to goodness ensues and so it goes during our lifetime. Sufficient grace is always given to elicit a yes from us. But not being efficacious, it is therefore fallible. Our assent to grace however effects a change in the soul such that the merely sufficient grace becomes efficacious. The more we say yes to God the easier it is to say yes.
Such that at the end of our lives, saying yes is the only way we could have responded to God.

Another angle which I have looked at (but which is not totally clear in my mind as yet) is the Eternal Now.

Both the Thomist and the Molinist approach the question of pre-destination from a space time continuum and thus limited by the linearity of time. But God is in eternity which some have explained as an eternal Now. But how to incorporate this in the above is still not completely organized in my head.

As a last disclaimer though, these comments are all just my musings and I am no theologian:D .
In my opinion, which only matters to me, you have done an excellent job at explaining the governance of Grace and the retainment of free will. No question.
 
continuation 2/2

The Thomist and Molinist view I think can be reconciled if we situate the former as operative during our last moment, and the latter during our lifetime.

The way I see it, the action of grace on the will in the Molinist view can be somewhat compared to building muscles. The more you exercise a particular muscle the more you increase the muscle mass and the easier the exercise becomes.

To apply to the Molinist view, sufficient grace is given so that the will can respond with a yes, and if the response is a yes, then the infallible conclusion to goodness ensues and so it goes during our lifetime. Sufficient grace is always given to elicit a yes from us. But not being efficacious, it is therefore fallible. Our assent to grace however effects a change in the soul such that the merely sufficient grace becomes efficacious. The more we say yes to God the easier it is to say yes.
Such that at the end of our lives, saying yes is the only way we could have responded to God.

Another angle which I have looked at (but which is not totally clear in my mind as yet) is the Eternal Now.

Both the Thomist and the Molinist approach the question of pre-destination from a space time continuum and thus limited by the linearity of time. But God is in eternity which some have explained as an eternal Now. But how to incorporate this in the above is still not completely organized in my head.

As a last disclaimer though, these comments are all just my musings and I am no theologian:D .
Hi Benedictus2,

You have made a superb job of outlining in summary the KEY DIFFERENCES between the Thomist and Molinist views of Predestination. Thank you so very much.

I agree with your summation. I, like you, lean toward the Molinist view as doing the greatest justice to the biblical and theological evidence.

I hold to a semi-pelagian view of human nature and this, of course, is one area that I share with Roman Catholicism. In other words, humans are ‘depraved’; not “totally depraved” as in Calvinism. The human sinner can make moral choices and is responsible to turn to God; however, the human sinner cannot effect REGENERATION. Only the Holy Spirit can grant EFFICACIOUS GRACE.

A great and memorable post.

May God richly bless you, Craig
 
I think someone else has answered this very well but I thought I would just add a little bit more info…

The Eucharist came to be reserved outside of Mass for the distribution to the sick. Then the monks started carrying them around as they travelled. One of the earliest accounts of reserving the Host was that of St Basil (years 300s) reserving a third of the Eucharist above the altar.

The first definitive statement on the Real Presence was made by Pope Gregory in response to a public denial of the Real presence by Berangarius, a French Archdeacon (circa 1000s). The public adoration of the Blessed Sacrament began around that time.

I am inserting an extract from a talk I gave on the Abiding Presence of Jesus int the Blessed Sacrament.

In one of his essays on the Eucharist, Pope Benedict wrote that when we pray before the Eucharist we know that God has already answered our prayer because
Slide 2
The Eucharist is God as an answer

When I was meditating over this statement this quite comical but sad scene flashed in my head.

Picture this: There we are praying for health, wealth, happiness and success and then God says: “Child I have decided to answer your prayer so here I am, I am giving you my very self.”

And we go: “Woah! Lord. Hold it right there. I was praying TO you, not FOR you. Just give me health, wealth, happiness and success.””

In another book (Jesus of Nazareth) Pope Benedict asked this question: If Jesus did not come to bring an end to war, famine, suffering. What did he bring? His answer :

Slide 3
Jesus has brought God.

Here again we have God answering our prayer with Himself.

A similar passage in the Bible: Luke Ch 11: 13, says pretty much the same thing:

Slide 4
If you then, evil as you are, know how to give your children what is good, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him’.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

At the Benediction, the Divine Praises is recited which goes:

Blessed Be God
Blessed Be His Holy Name
Blessed be Jesus Christ, true God and true man.
Blessed be the name of Jesus
Blessed be His most Sacred Heart
Blessed be His most Prescious Blood
Blessed Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
Blessed be the Holy Spirit the Paraclete.
Blessed be the great Mother of God, Mary Most Holy
Blessed be her Holy and Immaculate Conception
Blessed be her glorious assumption
Blessed be the name of Mary, Virgin and Mother
Blessed be St Joseph her most chaste spouse
Blessed be God in his angesl and in his saints.
Thanks Benedictus2,

Your additional comments were most helpful.

I also appreciated your actually listing the Divine Praises recited at the Benediction, when you wrote:

"At the Benediction, the Divine Praises is recited which goes:

Blessed Be God
Blessed Be His Holy Name
Blessed be Jesus Christ, true God and true man.
Blessed be the name of Jesus
Blessed be His most Sacred Heart
Blessed be His most Prescious Blood
Blessed Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
Blessed be the Holy Spirit the Paraclete.
Blessed be the great Mother of God, Mary Most Holy
Blessed be her Holy and Immaculate Conception
Blessed be her glorious assumption
Blessed be the name of Mary, Virgin and Mother
Blessed be St Joseph her most chaste spouse
Blessed be God in his angesl and in his saints."

Most helpful, indeed.

God bless you, In Christ Craig
 
The other day I was trying to find a post by Reformed and happened on a reply from someone called Ag_Not that twicked my interest. What caught my eye was her byline. I was in a hurry so lost the thread so I PMd her for the links.

After reading the threads I was just speechless. In tears.

I thought I’d post those links here today because I thought it touched on the topics that have come up for discussion on this thread: Mary, the Eucharist and most of all God’s love and His showering of abundant grace.

Some of you may have already seen the threads.

I have numbered the threads as it is best to go through it in sequence.

Weirdsville1

Weirdsville 2

Weirdsville 3

Weirdsville 4
 
Hi Benedictus2,

You have made a superb job of outlining in summary the KEY DIFFERENCES between the Thomist and Molinist views of Predestination. Thank you so very much.

I agree with your summation. I, like you, lean toward the Molinist view as doing the greatest justice to the biblical and theological evidence.

I hold to a semi-pelagian view of human nature and this, of course, is one area that I share with Roman Catholicism. In other words, humans are ‘depraved’; not “totally depraved” as in Calvinism. The human sinner can make moral choices and is responsible to turn to God; however, the human sinner cannot effect REGENERATION. Only the Holy Spirit can grant EFFICACIOUS GRACE.

A great and memorable post.

May God richly bless you, Craig
You’re welcome and Thank You. I have given Predestination a lot of thought since and my awe and wonder at the greatness and goodness of God has increased.

In the overall economy of salvation, the predestination of some to heaven finally made sense. I can now see that predestination of the elect does not mean the predestination to damnation of some.

It became clear once I realized that it meshes well with the reality of your and my membership in the communion of saints.

How wonderful is our God!:heaven:
 
As Catholics live by faith, they affirm that Mary was sinless.

I struggle with this. I always thought that Christ Himself was the only sinless one. Is this not correct? Could you please explain what this doctrine entails; why it is held; where it is derived from and its significance in Catholic devotion and piety?

I await your informed contributions.

God bless you, Craig
 
As Catholics live by faith, they affirm that Mary was sinless.

I struggle with this. I always thought that Christ Himself was the only sinless one. Is this not correct? Could you please explain what this doctrine entails; why it is held; where it is derived from and its significance in Catholic devotion and piety?

I await your informed contributions.

God bless you, Craig
I was going to summarize the content of this _ Immaculate Conception - but I think it is best to read the entire article.

Purely from my own musings alone though, Mary needed to be sinless since all of Christ’s human DNA will come from her. And as St Paul writes: Him who was without sin was made sin.

If Mary was not preserved from original sin by a special grace, then Christ’s humanity would have also inherited this sin because we affirm that Christ was fully human as well as being fully Divine.

The article talks about paying her debt before it was incurred. When I was thinking about it the other day, it sort of jives with the predestination of the elect in a way.

Not sure if I am making much sense here. I will try to have that better organized in my head later.
 
I was going to summarize the content of this _ Immaculate Conception - but I think it is best to read the entire article.

Purely from my own musings alone though, Mary needed to be sinless since all of Christ’s human DNA will come from her. And as St Paul writes: Him who was without sin was made sin.

If Mary was not preserved from original sin by a special grace, then Christ’s humanity would have also inherited this sin because we affirm that Christ was fully human as well as being fully Divine.

The article talks about paying her debt before it was incurred. When I was thinking about it the other day, it sort of jives with the predestination of the elect in a way.

Not sure if I am making much sense here. I will try to have that better organized in my head later.
Thanks Benedictus2,

Yes, I have read the article link you provided.

Are you suggesting, then, that God not only preserved Mary from ORIGINAL SIN, but also infallibly preserved Mary from all sin right throughout her earthly life?

The thought of this is staggering - if Mary never committed any sin ie she was never rude, arrogant, boastful, prideful, selfish, impatient, irritable or said a wrong word etc, then she never committed one sin which means that she was not a sinner. Is this what you are suggesting?

Furthermore, if Mary was not a sinner, then it follows that she did not need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ and, therefore, Christ did not shed His blood for her. Can you please explain this?

God bless you, In Christ Craig
 
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