To live by faith

[Craig_Kennedy]

I need to expand on this statement.

This is related to the doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, or “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is what the Catechism says on this subject (any bold in the text is mine):

The Church teaches that people who know the truth of the Catholic faith but refuse to accept it, cannot be saved. They cannot be saved because they are guilty of sin. The Holy Spirit has revealed the truth to them and they refused to accept his promptings. A person who is convinced of the truth of Catholicism has an obligation to enter in the Church. In the same way, Catholics who know the truth of the Catholic religion but leave the Church are guilty of rejecting the faith. They cannot be saved because they have sinned against charity and are guilty of wounding the Body of Christ.

However, salvation is possible for those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the truth of the Catholic religion. They can be saved if they seek God with a sincere heart and do their best to follow the goodness of their conscience.

How does this relate to protestants? According to the teachings of the Church, protestants can be saved if they sincerely believe they are practicing the true religion of God in their respective denomination. A person who is born into a specific denomination cannot be blamed for thinking that this is the true religion. Therefore, God will not blame them if they sincerely try to please him and do his will. They cannot be blamed for not practicing a religion they did not know. However, if any protestant has a slight idea that the Catholic religion is true, then he must investigate the faith fully; and if he becomes convinced of its truth, he must convert. This same principal holds true for all non-Catholics.

THIS IS A SIMPLIFIED EXPLANATION of the issue. We could go into depth on this subject but I don’t think its appropriate for this thread.

Thanks Dempsey 1919,

This was a full explanation of the Catholic view of the Church.

I think you know, that at this stage I am investigating truth matters
and have not “arrived” by any means. There is much for me to study and learn.

As I said to Lief, I will take it slowly and thoroughly. I can’t make any promises what my final conclusions will be. I will allow God - and God alone - to lead me.

I can assure you, though, that I have no axe to grind on this forum or any agenda to pursue. I will continue to ask you questions and then I will ponder and reflect. I will be true to my own conscience as God leads me.

I am pleased how this thread is going. I am learning heaps and I sincerely do respect genuine Catholics who practise their faith.

Out of interest, when do Catholics see the Church commencing?
In the Old or New Testament? Do Catholics hold to a form of modified Covenant theology? Why or why not?

I wait your responses.

God bless, Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

. However, if any protestant has a slight idea that the Catholic religion is true, then he must investigate the faith fully; and if he becomes convinced of its truth, he must convert. This same principal holds true for all non-Catholics.

Out of curiosity, what would your take on this set of events be?

Just say a man and his wife and children attended an evangelical Baptist Church. The man became convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith but his wife resisted this fiercely, seeing the Catholic faith as dark and heretical. The man wanted to convert to the Catholic Church but if he did it threatened to destroy his wife and family, which previously had been a happy unit.

What should the man do? Should he convert? Or should he preserve his family?

The wife was raised in Baptist circles and her relatives steeped in evangelicalism and Brethrenism.

Dempsey 1919 in view of your post “no salvation outside the Church” how would you assess and interpret this situation?

I have “coined” this situation in order to establish what the Catholic Church would teach.

I await your comments and observations.

Cheers, God bless you Craig

/

 

[Dempsey1919]

Just say a man and his wife and children attended an evangelical Baptist Church. The man became convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith but his wife resisted this fiercely, seeing the Catholic faith as dark and heretical. The man wanted to convert to the Catholic Church but if he did it threatened to destroy his wife and family, which previously had been a happy unit.

What should the man do? Should he convert? Or should he preserve his family?

I will let the Lord answer this question:

And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there is no man who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive manifold more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Luke 18:29

If a man becomes convinced that the Catholic faith is true, then he must follow the will of God and convert even though this may cause his family some difficulties. Furthermore, if his wife is truly Christian she will respect her husband’s decision and will appreciate that he is doing his best to follow the will of the Lord. I doubt a truly Christian marriage would end because one of the spouses decided to convert to another form of Christianity.

I acknowledge that this will initially cause some difficulties, but I know that if that the wife will eventually accept the change if she truly loves her husband. A loving marriage will not end because of this.

Here is another saying of the Lord:

*“He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” *
Matthew 10:37-38

The man must decide to put the Lord first before all else, including his own family. It will be difficult, but the Lord never said it would be easy. He must take up his cross and follow the Lord. The man should put his faith in the Lord and trust in his divine providence.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Out of interest, when do Catholics see the Church commencing?
In the Old or New Testament? Do Catholics hold to a form of modified Covenant theology? Why or why not?

Here is what the Catechism says about the Church’s origin (bold in the text is mine):

We begin our investigation of the Church’s mystery by meditating on her origin in the Holy Trinity’s plan and her progressive realization in history.

II. THE CHURCH’S ORIGIN, FOUNDATION AND MISSION

**A plan born in the Father’s heart **

"The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,” to which he calls all men in his Son. “The Father . . . determined to call together in a holy Church those who should believe in Christ.”** This “family of God” is gradually formed** and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father’s plan. In fact, “already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvelous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and the old Advance. Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time.”

**The Church- foreshadowed from the world’s beginning **

Christians of the first centuries said, “The world was created for the sake of the Church.” God created the world for the sake of communion with his divine life, a communion brought about by the “convocation” of men in Christ, and this “convocation” is the Church. The Church is the goal of all things, and God permitted such painful upheavals as the angels’ fall and man’s sin only as occasions and means for displaying all the power of his arm and the whole measure of the love he wanted to give the world:

Just as God’s will is creation and is called “the world,” so his intention is the salvation of men, and it is called “the Church.”

The Church teaches that God revealed himself in various stages. God communicated himself to man gradually. God prepares man to welcome by stages the supernatural Revelation that is to culminate in the person and mission of the Incarnate Word, Jesus Christ (Catechism of the Catholic Church v. 53.)

As God gradually revealed himself to man, the Church or the “family of God” also developed gradually and took shape “during the stages of human history.” By understanding the Church to be the “People of God” we can see the acceptance of the Israelites as a preparation for the Church:

The Church - prepared for in the Old Covenant

The gathering together of the People of God began at the moment when sin destroyed the communion of men with God, and that of men among themselves. The gathering together of the Church is, as it were, God’s reaction to the chaos provoked by sin. This reunification is achieved secretly in the heart of all peoples: “In every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable” to God.

The remote preparation for this gathering together of the People of God begins when he calls Abraham and promises that he will become the father of a great people. Its immediate preparation begins with Israel’s election as the People of God. By this election, Israel is to be the sign of the future gathering of All nations. But the prophets accuse Israel of breaking the covenant and behaving like a prostitute. They announce a new and eternal covenant. “Christ instituted this New Covenant.”

The Church, which was foreshadowed in the Old Covenant was only made fully manifest with the coming of Our Saviour Jesus Christ. The Redeemer inaugurated the Church with his preaching, and ushered in the beginnings of the Kingdom of God in the world (continued below):

 

[Dempsey1919]

The Church - instituted by Christ Jesus

It was the Son’s task to accomplish the Father’s plan of salvation in the fullness of time. Its accomplishment was the reason for his being sent. “The Lord Jesus inaugurated his Church by preaching the Good News, that is, the coming of the Reign of God, promised over the ages in the scriptures.” **To fulfill the Father’s will, Christ ushered in the Kingdom of heaven on earth. The Church “is the Reign of Christ already present in mystery.”
**
“This Kingdom shines out before men in the word, in the works and in the presence of Christ.” To welcome Jesus’ word is to welcome “the Kingdom itself.” The seed and beginning of the Kingdom are the “little flock” of those whom Jesus came to gather around him, the flock whose shepherd he is. They form Jesus’ true family. To those whom he thus gathered around him, he taught a new “way of acting” and a prayer of their own.

The Lord Jesus endowed his community with a structure that will remain until the Kingdom is fully achieved. Before all else there is the choice of the Twelve with Peter as their head. Representing the twelve tribes of Israel, they are the foundation stones of the new Jerusalem. The Twelve and the other disciples share in Christ’s mission and his power, but also in his lot. By all his actions, Christ prepares and builds his Church.

The Church is born primarily of Christ’s total self-giving for our salvation, anticipated in the institution of the Eucharist and fulfilled on the cross. “The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus.” “For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth the ‘wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.’” As Eve was formed from the sleeping Adam’s side, so the Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross.

Before Christ the Church, or the People of God, was made up almost entirely of the descendents of Abraham. However, with the coming of Christ and the establishment of the new and universal Covenant, the Church became truly universal.

Therefore in answer to your question, the Church teaches that the plan for the Church has always existed and was revealed gradually to mankind. Christ as the ‘Mediator and Fullness of All Revelation’ establised the Church as we know it today. This Church is the beginning of the Kingdom of God on Earth and will be fully revealed with the Second Coming of Christ.

I went a bit overboard when I wrote and I had to cut several bits out because of the size. I hope this condensed version answers your question however.

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

I will let the Lord answer this question:

And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there is no man who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive manifold more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Luke 18:29

If a man becomes convinced that the Catholic faith is true, then he must follow the will of God and convert even though this may cause his family some difficulties. Furthermore, if his wife is truly Christian she will respect her husband’s decision and will appreciate that he is doing his best to follow the will of the Lord. I doubt a truly Christian marriage would end because one of the spouses decided to convert to another form of Christianity.

I acknowledge that this will initially cause some difficulties, but I know that if that the wife will eventually accept the change if she truly loves her husband. A loving marriage will not end because of this.

Here is another saying of the Lord:

*“He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” *
Matthew 10:37-38

The man must decide to put the Lord first before all else, including his own family. It will be difficult, but the Lord never said it would be easy. He must take up his cross and follow the Lord. The man should put his faith in the Lord and trust in his divine providence.

Thanks Dempsey 1919,

Yes, these are no doubt “hard sayings” of our Lord and Master and, yet, as you say He is gracious and merciful in all things.

You state:

“The man should put his faith in the Lord and trust in his divine providence.”

I like that; it suggests that when Christ and His Kingdom is put first the Lord will provide for our needs.

God bless you, Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Here is what the Catechism says about the Church’s origin (bold in the text is mine):

The Church teaches that God revealed himself in various stages. God communicated himself to man gradually. God prepares man to welcome by stages the supernatural Revelation that is to culminate in the person and mission of the Incarnate Word, Jesus Christ (Catechism of the Catholic Church v. 53.)

As God gradually revealed himself to man, the Church or the “family of God” also developed gradually and took shape “during the stages of human history.” By understanding the Church to be the “People of God” we can see the acceptance of the Israelites as a preparation for the Church:

The Church, which was foreshadowed in the Old Covenant was only made fully manifest with the coming of Our Saviour Jesus Christ. The Redeemer inaugurated the Church with his preaching, and ushered in the beginnings of the Kingdom of God in the world (continued below):

Hi Dempsey 1919,

I am blessed by this post and I have taken in the riches of a “People of God” planned in eternity and revealed progressively in time.

By the way, what did you mean by the words “Old Advance” in your post?

God bless you, Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Before Christ the Church, or the People of God, was made up almost entirely of the descendents of Abraham. However, with the coming of Christ and the establishment of the new and universal Covenant, the Church became truly universal.

Therefore in answer to your question, the Church teaches that the plan for the Church has always existed and was revealed gradually to mankind. Christ as the ‘Mediator and Fullness of All Revelation’ establised the Church as we know it today. This Church is the beginning of the Kingdom of God on Earth and will be fully revealed with the Second Coming of Christ.

I went a bit overboard when I wrote and I had to cut several bits out because of the size. I hope this condensed version answers your question however.

Thanks Dempsey 1919,

Yes, your condensed version answers my question thoroughly and precisely! Thank you.

Just one question, however:

Does the Catholic Church teach that the Church IS (ie equals =) the Kingdom of God (KG)? Or is the KG broader than the Church.

I await your thoughts.

God bless you, Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

We are continuing to investigate in this thread what it means for a Catholic to live by faith, in all its moral, ethical, spiritual and doctrinal implications.

With this in mind, as a Catholic devoutly practises his or her faith on a daily basis and “lives by faith” on a daily basis:

What does the Catholic Church teach about hell? Is it for eternity or for a limited time? What is its nature? Where is hell to be found? Who goes to hell and why?

Also, what does the Catholic Church teach about purgatory? How long is it for? What is its basis in scripture? What is its nature? Who goes there? And why?

I am appreciating all your responses in this thread and they are all helping me to understand how a Catholic lives by faith.

God bless you, Craig

 

[Dempsey1919]

By the way, what did you mean by the words “Old Advance” in your post?

All of the quotes above are from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Taken in context, I believe the “old Advance” signifies the gradual development of God and his plan for the people of Israel. The “old Advance” is the progressive realisation of the plan for the Church; the moving forward, or progression of the People of God in accordance with the divine plan.

In case you are unaware, all of the beliefs of the Catholic Church are systematically recorded in the Catechism. The entire Catechism is available for free online:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

This book details everything that the Church teaches and believes. I recommend that you begin reading it if you haven’t already done so.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Does the Catholic Church teach that the Church IS (ie equals =) the Kingdom of God (KG)? Or is the KG broader than the Church.

It teaches that the Church is the beginning of the Kingdom which will be fully realised after the Second Coming of Our Lord.

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

All of the quotes above are from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Taken in context, I believe the “old Advance” signifies the gradual development of God and his plan for the people of Israel. The “old Advance” is the progressive realisation of the plan for the Church; the moving forward, or progression of the People of God in accordance with the divine plan.

In case you are unaware, all of the beliefs of the Catholic Church are systematically recorded in the Catechism. The entire Catechism is available for free online:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

This book details everything that the Church teaches and believes. I recommend that you begin reading it if you haven’t already done so.

Thanks Dempsey 1919,

I will follow through with this and start reading the Catholic Catechism.

By the way, I like how you quote the Latin for theological dictums!
It has a clear and authoritative ring to it. Can you suggest an online link where I can translate the Latin into English and vice versa?

God bless, Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

It teaches that the Church is the beginning of the Kingdom which will be fully realised after the Second Coming of Our Lord.

Hi Dempsey 1919,

I take you mean the New Covenant Church founded by Christ?
Is this what you mean? If so, is this Church founded in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost or before?

May God bless you, Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

As Catholics live by faith, which versions of the scriptures are preferred and why?

Is there any particular version of the scriptures, including the Apocrypha, that Catholic Answers recommends?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

We are continuing to investigate in this thread what it means for a Catholic to live by faith, in all its moral, ethical, spiritual and doctrinal implications.

With this in mind, as a Catholic devoutly practises his or her faith on a daily basis and “lives by faith” on a daily basis:

What does the Catholic Church teach about hell? Is it for eternity or for a limited time? What is its nature? Where is hell to be found? Who goes to hell and why?

Also, what does the Catholic Church teach about purgatory? How long is it for? What is its basis in scripture? What is its nature? Who goes there? And why?

I am appreciating all your responses in this thread and they are all helping me to understand how a Catholic lives by faith.

God bless you, Craig

Here’s a list of scripture references to Purgatory. I don’t personally believe all of them are, in fact, referring to Purgatory, but some of them are pretty clear.
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
Here are some of the ones I like:
Matt. 12:32
1 Cor. 15:29-30
2 Tim. 1:16-18
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6
2 Macc. 12:43-45
1 Cor. 3:10-15

The link I cited explains pretty well how these refer to Purgatory.

Purgatory is not really a place. It’s a state of being. A follower of God who dies in a state of grace, yet still has entrenched sin in his life, isn’t automatically completely transformed into a perfect person on the moment of death. Rather, sin clouds the person’s ability to see God. However, because after death we are spirits and can have a far clearer perception of God and longing to see Him, this inner frustration at the remaining separation that exists between us and God is a terrible torment. Paul talks repeatedly about something like this in Scripture, when he says in Romans or Corinthians, “What a wretched man am I! Who will free me from this body of death?”

And in Hebrews he talks about being here naked and miserable, but longing to be clothed in the Heavenly pavilion.

That is a state similar to Purgatory, the state of longing for complete unity with God, yet still having some sin within oneself that keeps one from the completeness of that unity.

People remain in Purgatory for as long as it takes for them to completely give up and through Christ’s sanctifying blood be made clean of all the sin that’s left inside them. The longing for the completeness of Heaven that a person feels while separated in part from Heaven is the terrible pain these people endure.

Their condition also is one of far greater bliss than is that which we experience on Earth, because having passed through death and being in God’s “training field” of souls, they are closer to God and more pure than we are. So their intimacy with Him is greater and consequently their joy is greater. Yet their pain at the remaining separation is also greater.

People go to Purgatory simply because they aren’t completely pure in this life and have sin left over. How long they’re there depends on how deeply entrenched the sin in their lives is, and how much must be overcome. It also depends on whether anyone is praying for them or not, for the more prayers are raised on their behalf, the easier their purification will be. That is actually the same as it is on Earth- on Earth, also, we pray for one another to overcome this or that sin, and those prayers make it far more likely to come to pass.

As for Hell, that too is a state of being. It is the state of willful rejection of God. If you, right now, were to reject all the love and good that is in your life, would you be happy? No. You’d be miserable. God is the source of all virtue, Love itself. Rejecting Him ultimately leads to rejection of all virtue and love. The damned have done this. While on Earth, they have some virtue left and are not yet damned, their descent into wickedness on Earth is a journey into greater and greater evil. Jesus even describes it as such, when He says, “broad is the path to Hell and narrow the path to Heaven.” On Earth, we are all on one of those two paths right now. Either we are becoming more loving, more close to God, more accepting of what’s right, or we are becoming less. If we’re stagnating, we aren’t following God.

Hell and Heaven are the ends of the journey we walk on here on Earth. Here we walk the journey, the road to the destination, a road of our own choosing. In Heaven or Hell, we simply reach the end of the road.

All internal wickedness is a self-chosen condition. No one can force you to be evil. They can pressure you, but you make the final choice to submit to that pressure. All wickedness is self-chosen, and wickedness is the path to Hell, which is simply the completeness of wickedness.

Hell is self-chosen eternal separation from God. God isn’t heaping fire on people in Hell to punish them. The condition of the damned – self-chosen separation from all that is good – is the punishment they endure. They choose it for themselves and live in eternity in it, because, since they lack any remaining virtue (having completely rejected God, the source of all virtue), they cannot repent, for that would be a virtuous act.

As to your question, “Where is hell to be found?”, the answer is, “inside the human heart.” It is the self-chosen condition of wickedness. Choosing any sin is choosing separation from God (as it is an unloving act or thought, it’s separation from Love), to some small or great degree, and separation from God is the essence of Hell. Every sin can be seen as a miniature of Hell.

As to your question about who goes to Hell and why, I’d just say people who reject God in life go there, finding the completeness in Hell of what they’ve been doing, desiring and pursuing through their conduct on Earth. They pursue it on Earth, seeking it heartily, rejecting all God’s grace and efforts to bring them back to Himself, and after death they get the fullness of what they pursued.

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Here’s a list of scripture references to Purgatory. I don’t personally believe all of them are, in fact, referring to Purgatory, but some of them are pretty clear.
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
Here are some of the ones I like:
Matt. 12:32
1 Cor. 15:29-30
2 Tim. 1:16-18
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6
2 Macc. 12:43-45
1 Cor. 3:10-15

The link I cited explains pretty well how these refer to Purgatory.

Purgatory is not really a place. It’s a state of being. A follower of God who dies in a state of grace, yet still has entrenched sin in his life, isn’t automatically completely transformed into a perfect person on the moment of death. Rather, sin clouds the person’s ability to see God. However, because after death we are spirits and can have a far clearer perception of God and longing to see Him, this inner frustration at the remaining separation that exists between us and God is a terrible torment. Paul talks repeatedly about something like this in Scripture, when he says in Romans or Corinthians, “What a wretched man am I! Who will free me from this body of death?”

And in Hebrews he talks about being here naked and miserable, but longing to be clothed in the Heavenly pavilion.

That is a state similar to Purgatory, the state of longing for complete unity with God, yet still having some sin within oneself that keeps one from the completeness of that unity.

People remain in Purgatory for as long as it takes for them to completely give up and through Christ’s sanctifying blood be made clean of all the sin that’s left inside them. The longing for the completeness of Heaven that a person feels while separated in part from Heaven is the terrible pain these people endure.

Their condition also is one of far greater bliss than is that which we experience on Earth, because having passed through death and being in God’s “training field” of souls, they are closer to God and more pure than we are. So their intimacy with Him is greater and consequently their joy is greater. Yet their pain at the remaining separation is also greater.

People go to Purgatory simply because they aren’t completely pure in this life and have sin left over. How long they’re there depends on how deeply entrenched the sin in their lives is, and how much must be overcome. It also depends on whether anyone is praying for them or not, for the more prayers are raised on their behalf, the easier their purification will be. That is actually the same as it is on Earth- on Earth, also, we pray for one another to overcome this or that sin, and those prayers make it far more likely to come to pass.

As for Hell, that too is a state of being. It is the state of willful rejection of God. If you, right now, were to reject all the love and good that is in your life, would you be happy? No. You’d be miserable. God is the source of all virtue, Love itself. Rejecting Him ultimately leads to rejection of all virtue and love. The damned have done this. While on Earth, they have some virtue left and are not yet damned, their descent into wickedness on Earth is a journey into greater and greater evil. Jesus even describes it as such, when He says, “broad is the path to Hell and narrow the path to Heaven.” On Earth, we are all on one of those two paths right now. Either we are becoming more loving, more close to God, more accepting of what’s right, or we are becoming less. If we’re stagnating, we aren’t following God.

Hell and Heaven are the ends of the journey we walk on here on Earth. Here we walk the journey, the road to the destination, a road of our own choosing. In Heaven or Hell, we simply reach the end of the road.

All internal wickedness is a self-chosen condition. No one can force you to be evil. They can pressure you, but you make the final choice to submit to that pressure. All wickedness is self-chosen, and wickedness is the path to Hell, which is simply the completeness of wickedness.

Hell is self-chosen eternal separation from God. God isn’t heaping fire on people in Hell to punish them. The condition of the damned – self-chosen separation from all that is good – is the punishment they endure. They choose it for themselves and live in eternity in it, because, since they lack any remaining virtue (having completely rejected God, the source of all virtue), they cannot repent, for that would be a virtuous act.

As to your question, “Where is hell to be found?”, the answer is, “inside the human heart.” It is the self-chosen condition of wickedness. Choosing any sin is choosing separation from God (as it is an unloving act or thought, it’s separation from Love), to some small or great degree, and separation from God is the essence of Hell. Every sin can be seen as a miniature of Hell.

As to your question about who goes to Hell and why, I’d just say people who reject God in life go there, finding the completeness in Hell of what they’ve been doing, desiring and pursuing through their conduct on Earth. They pursue it on Earth, seeking it heartily, rejecting all God’s grace and efforts to bring them back to Himself, and after death they get the fullness of what they pursued.

Hi Lief,

Thank you for this post which, I must say, has satisfied me completely.

I found the reference you pointed to about purgatory to be most edifying and it filled in the blanks I had in my mind about the subject.

One question, though, that arises out of this:

What is the sin of slander spoken against the Holy Spirit in Matthew 12:31-32? If this sin is not forgiveable in this life (on earth) or in the life to come (that is, purgatory; because there is no forgiveness in heaven or hell, of necessity) what is this sin? How do Catholics, then, as they live by faith and progress in virtue on their way to heaven interpret and define the Unpardonable Sin? What should Catholics do and watch out for in avoiding the Unpardonable Sin?

I do appreciate your answers and I am profiting hugely from them.

May God bless you richly, Craig

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Here we go. This section from the Catechism answers both your questions at once, what the sin is and how to avoid it.
Catechism 1864:

"Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

Basically, the refusal to repent is the unforgivable sin. Repentance and humility are the means of avoiding it.

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Here we go. This section from the Catechism answers both your questions at once, what the sin is and how to avoid it.

Basically, the refusal to repent is the unforgivable sin. Repentance and humility are the means of avoiding it.

Thank you Lief,

I absolutely agree that this is the scriptural position.

Yes, final impenitence is the unpardonable sin.

May God bless you, Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

I’m afraid describing my conversion is going to take a while . I can’t be concise. I’ve written it up for you and it’s very long, but I still haven’t described it at all fully. I’m going to leave the rest out, though.

My conversion was a gradual process that transpired in the last three years. It started in my 21st year.

I described in the other thread how it started and ended, starting a long period of spiritual hunger and emptiness in my life (which, I now believe, was caused by the prayers of the Virgin, drawing me toward the Church). I prayed throughout that period for deeper intimacy with the Lord, and toward the end of that period, for greater knowledge about His Kingdom. I felt that that was what I was lacking.

The first spark that set me off on a journey that would end up in Catholicism was when one day as I was lying on my bed reading my Bible, reading from Revelation 20 where it was talking about the Millennium, I realized suddenly that the Thousand Years of Christ reigning over the Earth corresponded to the amount of time Christianity dominated virtually the entire known world during the Medieval Ages. That was 1000 years of Christianity. Reading the history books, we can see easily that after that period, people turned their gaze from salvation to the things of this world. That was also when Christianity was shattered into thousands of pieces (the Reformation), and the Enlightenment created waves of unbelief, truly a Great Deception to me as a Protestant. I wasn’t at that time ready to accept the logical implications about the Reformation, though my Dad noticed them immediately and jumped on them with criticism, but the way this framed history and put it into a spiritual perspective impressed me.

I had previously been taught that the saints would rule physically on the Earth, but I realized at that time that the verses actually said the souls of the saints would reign over the Earth, and the kinds of stories from that era of saints in Heaven through their prayers directly dominating events on Earth appeared very directly, literally and logically connected to this.

Then, I started realizing other prophecies in the Bible went the same way, most important amongst them Daniel 7. He predicted the time the Millennium would occur. He predicted four beasts, the last of which, Christian scholars across the board agree, is the Roman Empire. Then, he said that after the fall of this Fourth Beast, the kingdoms of men would be handed over to God and the saints to rule (Daniel 7:21-22, and 24-27). So that gives the timeline for when the Millennium would occur, and that is when, historically, a Millennium of Christianity dominating all the known world did occur (and the known world is all the Scripture is talking about- see Daniel 7:23).

The Millennium was not described in Scripture as a time of perfect peace where sin is abolished completely (though, interestingly, in the Early and Middle Medieval Ages there were no major rebellions and throughout the Medieval Ages there were no genocides, which is radically different from the modern era), but instead it is written that when Christ mounted His throne, he would rule the world with an iron scepter (Revelation 12:5). However, it was an era of Christianity, and that is what Christ’s reign means. His kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, and he reigned in the hearts of men all over the known world, His the only acknowledged way, whether people chose to follow it faithfully or not.

That was the beginning, for me. But just a beginning- it took a lot more months and more development of thought to get to Catholicism. I also found it a neat confirmation from God (though one could argue it’s coincidence) that I received this message about the Medieval Ages that started leading me toward Catholicism on this date: 3/3/07. Three and seven are very Christian numbers signifying God and his perfection, and receiving it on the seventh year of the new millennium, when the message was about Christ’s millennium, was neat. Also that happened to be my 21st year, my coming of age, and the Lord had prophesied to me on the first day I met Him, as a Protestant, that I would be a repairer of the breach, a restorer of the old foundations (which I think refers to the Medieval Ages and the breach of the Enlightenment- God means me to be an ideological builder, just helping people to realize how that part of our history works, spiritually).

This is not proof of anything on its own, but it was neat to me and a natural part of my relationship with God. It hearkened back to experiences I’d been having with God, dreams or other messages, for years before, and explained a lot.

After this experience though, I did not immediately think “Catholicism has got to be right.” It took quite a long time for me to get there.

Here are some of the factors that made a big difference in leading me toward Catholicism:

Hi Lief,

I have now thoroughly read again your insightful post and been richly blessed by it.

I am intrigued and fascinated by your eschatology. Two questions ensue:

Firstly, can you give me your exegesis on Matthew 24 Christ’s great eschatological discourse? Is there a future Great Tribulation or is this fulfilled in the Destruction of Jerusalem?

Can you provide me with links for further reading and study on Catholic interpretations of Matthew 24?

Secondly, you state that the Catholic Church is the Kingdom of God (KG). Can you provide me with links for further reading and study on this?

Thank you, God bless Craig

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Hi Lief,

I have now thoroughly read again your insightful post and been richly blessed by it.

I am intrigued and fascinated by your eschatology. Two questions ensue:

Firstly, can you give me your exegesis on Matthew 24 Christ’s great eschatological discourse? Is there a future Great Tribulation or is this fulfilled in the Destruction of Jerusalem?

Official Catholic eschatology is nowhere near so detailed and developed as Protestant eschatologies tend to be. It does present basic scriptural positions about what will happen, though.

Here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about the Great Tribulation:

Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

Here’s what it says about the Jewish role:

The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel,” for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus (Rom. 11:20–26; cf. Matt. 23:39). St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old” (Acts 3:19–21). St. Paul echoes him: “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” (Rom. 11:15). The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles” (Rom. 11:12, 25; cf. Luke 21:24), will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,” in which “God may be all in all” (Eph. 4:13; 1 Cor. 15:28).

Catholics who want more detail than these basic statements often look to the prophesies of Catholic mystics and saints throughout history. The predictions these holy people have made appear to say that the Church’s major events or time periods throughout history will parallel those of the Kingdom of Israel. For the last 2,000 years, they do indeed appear to have closely paralleled not only the story of the Kingdom of Israel in the Old Testament, but also the major phases of spiritual growth that take place in the lives of most of our saints.

Some basic historical parallels between the life of a saint and Old Testament Israel:
"Catholic Meditations Organization:

Catholic saintly life stages:

The Catholic rendering of the life of the saint has been discerned to involve a three stage process: the purgative, the illuminative, and the unitive.

From what I understand, in each stage, the saint must pass through various oppositions, culminating with a dark trial that , once overcome, leads to a “resurrection”, or “redemption”, if you will, as well as the next applicable stage. In the first stage, the saint is purging himself of his sins through penances. Once purged, he is then more or less holy enough for God to illuminate the saint with deep spiritual insights. But, as stated, there will be opposition to this phase from the sinful world around him, but ultimately the darkness is overcome and the illumination is vindicated, leading to the unitive phase, where the saint’s will and relationship becomes basically whole with God. Finally, at the conclusion of the unitive phase, the saint passes through a certain “martyrdom”, leading into the “next, ultimate age”, heaven.

Anyway, this microcosmic analysis of the individual saints seems to be prefigured in the history of the Jews themselves, as follows: After the initial covenant with Abraham, the Jews undergo the purgative, Egyptian Enslavement. Following the Deliverance in the Exodus, we have the Law given and illuminated upon by the Prophets. The illumination is resisted by sinful Israel, giving way to the Chastisement (Babylonian Exile), through which the prophets are vindicated, leading to the unitive phase (restoration of Old Covenant and return to the Promised Land). Finally near the end of the unitive, they Jews face “martyrdom”, through the OT Antichrist Antiochus (Maccabbees), followed by, ultimately, the next age, the First Coming of Christ.

The Catholic Church’s history has so far paralleled this form as well. When the Catholic Church began, after its “initial covenant” with Jesus, it endured a Purgative phase in its existence, severe persecution under the Roman Empire. Then it went through an illuminative phase, the Medieval Ages when the entire known world was Christian and God’s truth was everywhere. Then, the sinful Church was punished with a kind of spiritual exile in our modern secular “Post-Christian” era, like that which the Babylonian Exile Israel endured.

That’s where we’re at right now. There actually is a lot more precision than that in the parallels between Old Testament Israel and our Church, which I’m not getting into here. For instance, the Old Testament split between Judah and Israel occurred in Israel’s “Illuminative Phase,” just as the Orthodox and Catholic split occurred during our Illuminative Phase. There are other things too- I’m not an expert on it.

What the Catholic mystics are foretelling right now is a severe punishment from God is coming soon upon the entire world, including the Catholic Church, for its sins (This parallels Persia’s conquest of Babylon, immediately prior to the restoration of Israel as a country, I presume). Following that, the mystics predict that all Christians will again become united in one Body and our spiritual exile will end (as Israel/Judah were restored as one single kingdom on their old land). For a time, perhaps centuries, there will be peace (as there was for Israel). That’s as far as they’ve gotten in their predictions, I think. But the next logical steps in the parallelism are pretty clear. Following that will be the Great Tribulation (Paralleling the persecution of Israel under Antiochus) and then the Second Coming (Just as, immediately following Antiochus, the Incarnation of Christ occurred).

That’s the unofficial position Catholics tend to take on End Times, based both on Biblical parallelism (which also parallels the spiritual phases in the lives of the saints) and the mystical experiences, visions and other, that many of our saints have had.

Can you provide me with links for further reading and study on Catholic interpretations of Matthew 24?

Secondly, you state that the Catholic Church is the Kingdom of God (KG). Can you provide me with links for further reading and study on this?

Well, the Catholic Encyclopedia talks a little about it here, toward the end of this article. I’m having trouble finding a detailed discussion of it online. But studying the Church itself, as you are currently doing, does in itself reveal the nature of the Kingdom of God, because that is the Church.