To marry or not to marry - with an STD

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FlowerOfGod18

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Should a devout, chaste, practicing Catholic male or female who contracted genital herpes from a past life of fornication seek to get married or make themselves available for courtship? If someone with this incurable, yet somewhat manageable disease did pursue getting married, would that be immoral? I am getting conflicting messages. Christopher West wrote back to me regarding these questions and said that he knew of a couple in which the husband accepted his wife with genital herpes on the basis that he was laying down his life for her, as Christ did for His Bride the Church. Other moral experts say no way. :confused:
 
I have a few medical sorts of questions that I hope you can answer for me. Is this form of herpes always active? Is any partner to sexual relations at risk with every marital act? What is the risk for any baby birthed by a woman with this form of herpes? Thank you.
 
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Cupofkindness:
I have a few medical sorts of questions that I hope you can answer for me. Is this form of herpes always active? Is any partner to sexual relations at risk with every marital act? What is the risk for any baby birthed by a woman with this form of herpes? Thank you.
That is a good point. I was about to go in the direction of “if they are consenting and informed” but after reading this, I will hold that idea in abeyance until we find out if children can be injured. I’m not sure exactly how that factors in, so I’ll wait with you…

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
That is a good point. I was about to go in the direction of “if they are consenting and informed” but after reading this, I will hold that idea in abeyance until we find out if children can be injured. I’m not sure exactly how that factors in, so I’ll wait with you…

Alan
A woman with herpes can have children, but they usually birth by c section.
 
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Ana:
A woman with herpes can have children, but they usually birth by c section.
Wow.

Gosh.

So the children aren’t actually hurt, necessarily, but it causes medical complications…

I wonder if that’s even relevant?

Hmmmm…

Gee, I really don’t know what to say on the issue, so for once I think I’ll try not to go ahead and say it. I hope I will never have to advise someone personally on this because it really sounds complicated.

Alan
 
Perhaps if they only sought out a spouse with the same medical condition. (In any case, it would need to be disclosed right up front in any dating situation beyond the most casual.)

If it would be too medically serious to have children, NFP would need to be practiced for the length of their marriage. Otherwise, every medical precaution taken when having children.

my:twocents:
 
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Cupofkindness:
I have a few medical sorts of questions that I hope you can answer for me. Is this form of herpes always active? Is any partner to sexual relations at risk with every marital act? What is the risk for any baby birthed by a woman with this form of herpes? Thank you.
There is still much to learn about HSV (Herpes Simplex Virus), but this is what is “known” today. Most cases of genital herpes are caused by HSV-2 (about 90%), and HSV-1 (which causes infection of the mouth known as fever blisters) accounts for approx. 10% of genital herpes. “Most people infected with HSV-2 are not aware of their infection” (cdc.gov). The symptoms can be very vague. “The classic presentation of genital herpes—a cluster of small, painful blisters, which ulcerate, crust, and heal—occurs only in approximately 20% of seropositive individuals. According to data from the third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III), many HSV-2 infections are asymptomatic” (famvir.com).

Exactly when the virus is shed is unknown. It is known that the virus can be transmitted without the symptoms of the disease. It is estimated that 1 out of 4 women are infected with HSV-2 and 1 out of 5 men are infected. This does not include those with genial HSV-1 infections.

As far as pregnancy, the CDC site discusses this. “Women without symptoms or signs of genital herpes or its prodrome can deliver vaginally. Most specialists recommend that women with recurrent genital herpetic lesions at the onset of labor deliver by cesarean section to prevent neonatal herpes. However, abdominal delivery does not completely eliminate the risk for HSV transmission to the infant.”

cdc.gov/STD/treatment/2-2002TG.htm#GenitalHerpes

HTH!
 
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FlowerOfGod18:
Should a devout, chaste, practicing Catholic male or female who contracted genital herpes from a past life of fornication seek to get married or make themselves available for courtship?
My advice - forget what the moral experts say on the subject. Trust in God to provide a husband for you, and trust that He will provide a means for you to have children, if that is His Divine Will.

🙂
 
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Cupofkindness:
I have a few medical sorts of questions that I hope you can answer for me. Is this form of herpes always active? Is any partner to sexual relations at risk with every marital act? What is the risk for any baby birthed by a woman with this form of herpes? Thank you.
I speak for a devout Catholic friend who is very torn by this dilemma and I believe she has an active yet mild form of herpes. She tells me that she fears that she might be asking way too much of another person to accept this, and therefore she does not give any man a chance to get close to her. :crying:

Devout Catholic people that we know are always trying to fix her up, but she is so ambivalent because of the condition that she is giving mixed signals and people are getting tired of it without knowing what is behind it. I am the only person she has told beside a priest.

I have told her that I know of another devout Catholic woman who had a similar past, and who did not know she had genital herpes until she gave birth to her first child and the doctor noticed it after the birth. The child and her 2 subsequent children are all fine, thanks be to God. :clapping:

But my question could apply to any devout Catholic who has a mild or more severe form of the condition. So let us say that a Catholic with this condition knows that genital herpes still MIGHT BE transmissable to a spouse even when taking medication. Then what? Note however, that the medication taken by the person is clinically proven to reduce the risk of transmission by 75% and it can be taken safely during pregnancy.

I guess I am just trying to find out, is it moral in the eyes of Holy Mother Church for a person who knowingly has this condition, to even dare think of making themselves available for courtship which then leads to marriage? There are so many conflicting opinions among priests and lay people. Some say that it is reprehensible and then some (like Christopher West) are saying that it would be acceptable and even noble for the potential/future spouse to sacrificially accept the risk of transmission.

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my post! 👋

Pax Christi
 
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patientone:
There’s always abstainance. It worked for St. Joseph.
Is it OK with the Church to marry with intention of practicing abstinence right from the getgo?

Alan
 
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patientone:
There’s always abstainance. It worked for St. Joseph.
I guess I should have added that my friend has always felt a strong desire to marry and have children, but having grown up in a very abusive family, she went off to college “looking for love in all the wrong places” as the song goes. And in the wrong ways.

Anyway, after getting herpes, which she sees as God’s chastisement, she gave up her casual boyfriends, gave her life back to God, and began practicing her Catholic faith again. After praying the Rosary a lot, she then read a book that she found in her mother’s bookcase, that had mysteriously been given to her mother while she and her mother were hiding out in a motel away from her abusive father during her freshman year of high school. Evidently the woman who gave her mother the book, worked at the front office of a motel they stayed at, but when her mother went back to thank the woman for the book, the owners of the motel said they did not have any other employees. Unfortunately, my friend’s mother never shared this story with her until after her conversion began.

Anyway, my friend loaned me the book to read. It is about a Catholic nun who was given the gift of healing in a prayer meeting at a time when she was about to leave the religious life in the late 60’s. The gifts of the Holy Spirit kept this nun from leaving like so many others. And as my friend pointed out to me when she loaned me the book, the nun tells of her time in prison ministry, and of a time when she met a prisoner and asked if he had any prayer requests. Much to the nun’s shock and dismay, he proceeded to say that he had a severe venereal disease that the doctors could not help and he wanted to ask the Lord for healing. The nun’s first thought was something like, “How dare this guy ask for healing! He gets what he deserves for his misbehavior.” Then the Holy Spirit gave her a thought something like “How dare you stand in the way of My Desire to Heal and Have Mercy.” So the nun humbled by God’s admonishment, prayed with the man, and he was healed.

So to conclude, this book gave my friend a glimmer of hope that God might heal her so she could marry and have children. She has abstained and practiced chastity for over 10 years. But she has not been healed despite going to healing Masses and despite her prayers. I think the problem is that she has been told different things by different priests and different lay people, and she also fears rejection, judgment, and gossip by the Catholic men that have asked her out. So she turns everyone away with her paralytic-like interactions. It is like she cannot be herself and cannot forgive herself and cannot be relaxed with any man. It is sad and right now she finds herself with someone who likes her and that she likes, but she is like a dear caught in headlights.

So I think what was posted by Mr. Mike seems to be the right advice to give her, especially since her desire to love and be loved is so strong. And I think she needs to trust in God more. 👍
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Is it OK with the Church to marry with intention of practicing abstinence right from the getgo?

Alan
If it is an accepted practice by both the husband and the wife I believe that it would be.
 
Mr Mike:
My advice - forget what the moral experts say on the subject. Trust in God to provide a husband for you, and trust that He will provide a means for you to have children, if that is His Divine Will.

🙂
Brilliant Mr. Mike. 👍

Your friend is free to follow her conscience. May she find peace and freedom in the will of God.
 
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FlowerOfGod18:
Should a devout, chaste, practicing Catholic male or female who contracted genital herpes from a past life of fornication seek to get married or make themselves available for courtship? If someone with this incurable, yet somewhat manageable disease did pursue getting married, would that be immoral? I am getting conflicting messages. Christopher West wrote back to me regarding these questions and said that he knew of a couple in which the husband accepted his wife with genital herpes on the basis that he was laying down his life for her, as Christ did for His Bride the Church. Other moral experts say no way. :confused:
I have a good friend who has HSV-2. She has given me permission to tell her story here.
She contracted herpes as a result of a “one night stand” when she was 20. She believes that it was a warning from God that she was on a slippery slope downwards. She completly turned her life around and is now a devout Catholic, married with children.
She at first believed that she shouldn’t date and would certainly never engage in sexual relationships (and so believed that marriage was impossible for her) but following several discussions with her wonderful parish priest, doctor and counsellor, she decided that it was possible. She was open with any boyfriends she had and would tell them early on in a relationship, if she thought things were getting serious. This caused the breakup of a few relationships and it took her a while to find a good man who was accepting of her condition. She is married now and God has blessed her and her husband with 4 beautiful children and #5 is due in April. She has recurrent flare ups so they abstain from maritial relationships during this time. Her first 3 her children were normal vaginal births since she had no herpes symptoms at the time but #4 was a c-section because she had a flareup when whe went into labour.
This couple have a wonderful marrige and are totally devoted to each other, their children and their faith.

Gearoidin
 
Dear Gearoidin,

Thank you and your friend for that beautiful story. It is wonderful to hear worldly confirmation of what we know about God’s laws of forgiveness, healing, and power.

It sounds like the healing is profound, even if its effects are still there as an occasional reminder.
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Gearoidin:
She contracted herpes as a result of a “one night stand” when she was 20.
I was “lucky” in the worldly sense, that the one time I contracted an STD it happened to be a kind that could be cured with massive antibiotics – small scars remain as reminder (it’s very weird – details will not be forthcoming) but it’s over and nothing more will change.

In a spiritual sense, I was not so “lucky” because it was not enough incentive for me to change my behavior at that time. 😦
This couple have a wonderful marrige and are totally devoted to each other, their children and their faith.
That is something to be celebrated…

http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/14.gif

Alan
 
Being that the condition is very managable and not particularly contagious when in remission, and that the chances of a baby contracting neonatal herpes is extremely low, I think the real question here is one of your vocation.

You are not just a person with a past- you are a valuable prize to be cherished as God intended you to be. IMO, to claim that your vocation is limited by the consequence of sins that have been forgiven reduces your worth.

Is God calling you to be a wife and mother? Once you answer that question, then you can begin to consider how to approach the topic of HSV. You may decide to tell prospects right away, so they don’t waste their time if it is going to be a deal breaker. You may decide to wait until after a few dates, or maybe until you begin to consider engagement. This discernment is much harder than knowing where God is calling you.

“Delight in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.” What does your heart desire? Do you long for a husband who will accept you and the ghosts from your past? If so, then you’re probably being called to marriage.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Is it OK with the Church to marry with intention of practicing abstinence right from the getgo?

Alan
Actually, no. I don’t know if it’s in the CCC, but I read “the good news about sex and marrage, what the catholic church really teaches” by Christopher West, who broke down PJPII’s “theology of the body”. and he said that marrage isn’t final until it has ben consamated. (with the exception of Mary and Joseph).

Ok, now, I also have a friend who has herpies and has TWO children now! there is no reason why someone cannot marry and have a family with this condition. You will have to be careful and doctors will be able to help you/your friend.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Is it OK with the Church to marry with intention of practicing abstinence right from the getgo?

Alan
This is called a Josephite marriage. The marriage would be valid but not indissoluble. Consumated, invalid marriages can receive a decree of nullity (be annulled), but valid marriages that are not consumated do not even require this formality. If brought before a tribunal, it would simply be dissolved because the sacrament was never “finalized.” Thus, one could argue that consumation of the sacrament is considered paramount to the sacramental validity of the marriage.

This is a gross over-simplification, but since marriages are given the benefit of the doubt until brought before a tribunal, couples who have consumated their marriage are in a sense “more married” than a couple who hasn’t, even if the first couple’s circumstances would allow for a decree of nullity while the second couple’s would not (except the lack of consumation).

Though not general practice, this type of marriage is perfectly licit if both partners are agreeable. Presumably, all newlywed couples are in this state between the time they say their vows and their private time later that night, sometimes not until a week or more later if circumstances make them choose to abstain.

Interestingly enough, couples who use any means of artificial birth control have not consumated their marriage until their first act of uncontracepted sex after their vows.

IMO, one would need to speak with a priest, preferably one who knows you well, before deciding that God is calling you to this unique vocation.
 
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vluvski:
Interestingly enough, couples who use any means of artificial birth control have not consumated their marriage until their first act of uncontracepted sex after their vows.

.
Are you serious … I had no idea … makes sense when you think about it though. Wow.
 
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