To Muslims: why believe in a reinterpreted Bible

[CompSciGuy]

You started it

duly noted.

 

[elwill]

Can you elaborate on this please?

for example , when you says to me that jesus is God , then quran says that jesus isn’t God , then we should to reconsider the writting of the bible again and to put it under a test again to verify from the calims of this book " quran"

I’d like to know the answer to this question as well.

i prefer that you study his massage and his biograpghy by yourself to find the reason for your own
everyone converted to islam have his own reason for that , it differes from person to person according to the interrests of everyone

it’s always beginns with the intension to find the truth or the intension to make unbiased study
but please read it from islamic books ,

Gladly. If you want evidence for the Father-Son relationship and the divinity of Christ from the Bible, you need look no further than John Chapter 1 (In the beginning was the word). It says it very plainly. Also go on to read the rest of John’s gospel, it is very clear from the text that Jesus claimed to be more than just a prophet.

with all my respect for your beliefs
it’s not that plainly for me
when i read a book which says in the first line of it
(In the beginning was the word).
it’s impossible for me to close the book and says that it’s very plain that jesus is God ,
the satatment can be interpreted in many many ways

i can’t consider it to be enough or palin evidence for his divinity , beside it’s not said in the tonque of jesus , which mean that it’s the openion of the writer
who wrote this Gospel ? you can search for yourself if the writers of this gospele are known historically for sure or not !

Ok. So this gives some insight then, Mohammad’s claims were not made up by Mohammad but were based on heresies. I suppose then you should ask yourself why you believe the writings of heretics who did not know Jesus over the words of the apostles who did know him. I know that there exist heretical groups that have broken away from traditional Sunni Islam; suppose that I were to listen to them and use their doctrines to form a new religion. That is basically what Mohammad did with Christianity.

you said that records about such views should be existed , i told you that records existed in the fact ,your openion about it isn’t my problem now

secondly we believe that quran is from God directly , not historical records collected by mohammed (pbuh) from heretical wrting as you suggest ,
we believe that our prophet didn’t learn reading or writing arabic languge , so it will impossible to suggest that he read foriegn one about those heretical groups

Again I repeat, if the apostles lied, or if the Church corrupted the gospel, then we have to believe that the meaning of the gospel is lost and no reliable source exists. The early heretical writings did not come from Jesus nor his apostles. The ones that do claim to be can be shown to be false.

we respect the apostles of jesus (pbuh) and consider them best of believers , we think that the time and next generations corrupted the truth gradually through the time which lead the followers to misguide the true path

 

[elwill]

Dragonslayer;8306866:

If Jesus was merely a prophet and not the son of God, it would mean the whole of Christianity is based on a lie, and our whole Catholic faith would be based on a lie.It would be rendered invalid. Why would someone say that, especially six hundred years after eye witness accounts say something different?

What is more surprising is that it would take God about 600 years to correct a false religion, that people died for and truly believed.

i don’t think that for jesus being son of God in the bible should not to make all the relegion baded on lie if christians understood such verses as those ones which said that prophets of OT are sons and childs of God as well

 

[CompSciGuy]

for example , when you says to me that jesus is God , then quran says that jesus isn’t God , then we should to reconsider the writting of the bible again and to put it under a test again to verify from the calims of this book " quran"

So you’re saying that you don’t believe what the Bible says because the Quran says it’s wrong. That’s called blind faith.

i prefer that you study his massage and his biograpghy by yourself to find the reason for your own
everyone converted to islam have his own reason for that , it differes from person to person according to the interrests of everyone
it’s always beginns with the intension to find the truth or the intension to make unbiased study
but please read it from islamic books ,

I have heard the story of Mohammad. With all due respect, there is absolutely no reason for me to believe he was a prophet. He did not fulfill any old Testament prophecies. Furthermore, the revelation to the prophet Mohammad in the cave was unlike any other revelation in scripture; it was a violent revelation. To me that sounds like demonic revelation rather than godly revelation. Not saying that Islam is demonic, just that it really doesn’t sound like it comes from God.

with all my respect for your beliefs
it’s not that plainly for me
when i read a book which says in the first line of it
(In the beginning was the word).
it’s impossible for me to close the book and says that it’s very plain that jesus is God ,
the satatment can be interpreted in many many ways

You didn’t read the rest of the passage! I told you to read the rest of the passage. There is more to it than “In the beginning was the word.” How can you just read the one line I posted and tell me that it doesn’t say anything? Here is the rest:

John Ch. 1

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
…
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

Clearly here “the word” refers to Jesus. Jesus was in the beginning, was with God, and was God. Through him all things were made. How does this not reveal the divinity of Christ? There is no other way of interpreting this verse. Here are more from the gospel of John:

John 10:25-39
“Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than alld; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.”

The following passage can be clearly understood (as it was by the teachers of the law) to be a claim to divinity, and it is easy to see it by reading Exodus when God appeared to Moses and identified himself as I AM.

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

I know what you’re thinking but this is NOT a weak scriptural defense. The jews picked up stones to kill Jesus. They would not do this if he were not claiming to be “I AM” (YHWH). What he said was considered blasphemy.

You simply cannot read the gospel of John and not believe in the divinity of Christ. If you can, then you are not intellectually honest.

i can’t consider it to be enough or palin evidence for his divinity , beside it’s not said in the tonque of jesus , which mean that it’s the openion of the writer
who wrote this Gospel ? you can search for yourself if the writers of this gospele are known historically for sure or not !

you said that records about such views should be existed , i told you that records existed in the fact ,your openion about it isn’t my problem now

This is another example of backwards reasoning. The gospels are THE most reliable source of information about the Christ. You’re calling into question their validity, and saying that because another writing existed, which was written hundreds of years later, that one must be true. What it comes down to is you believe whatever you want to be true. If you look at the writings of the earliest Church, they accept the gospels and the other writings are rejected because they were written by Gnostics and other heretics. There is good evidence for accepting the gospels:
catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0711fea3.asp

 

[CompSciGuy]

secondly we believe that quran is from God directly , not historical records collected by mohammed (pbuh) from heretical wrting as you suggest ,
we believe that our prophet didn’t learn reading or writing arabic languge , so it will impossible to suggest that he read foriegn one about those heretical groups

This contradicts what you said earlier. Again you have to explain why you believe that Mohammad is a prophet from God. Why does Islam even claim to be of Abrahamic descent when it tries to change what is in the Old and New Testament. Any religion that tries to fulfill another religion by revising the other religion’s claims is not worthy of belief. If there is truth to the other religions then the truth will lie in that religion; it can be fulfilled, such as in Christianity, but never revised. Again, if the gospels or the Old Testament are corrupted, then that truth is lost, and the Quran would be the worst place to look for the truth.

we respect the apostles of jesus (pbuh) and consider them best of believers , we think that the time and next generations corrupted the truth gradually through the time which lead the followers to misguide the true path

This can be easily answered because we have many, many early writings and early copies of the gospels and the Bible itself. Not to mention the gospels and the writings of the Church Fathers have been collected and studied by churches all over the world, including in Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches and all of these writings agree with each other. There is no room for a claim that they have been corrupted over the centuries.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I have re-read my statements and I think that they are not as charitable as I would have liked them to be. I would edit them but for some reason I do not have that option. I want to say sorry for being brash in my answers. I will be more careful in how I answer from now on.

 

[KathleenGee]

A true prophet…we have to go back to Sacred Scriptures…who have been here long before the Quran or New Testament…

What makes a true prophet?

A true prophet of God is hated by his own townspeople.

He calls people to repent of sin and turn to God.

A true prophet prophesizes the will of God which has become indiscernible to people because they have been blinded by sin. A true prophet prophesizes punishment that will come if people do not repent.

A true prophet does not take God’s will in his own hands and start punishing people or killing them off for being bad.

 

[CompSciGuy]

A true prophet…we have to go back to Sacred Scriptures…who have been here long before the Quran or New Testament…

What makes a true prophet?

A true prophet of God is hated by his own townspeople.

He calls people to repent of sin and turn to God.

A true prophet prophesizes the will of God which has become indiscernible to people because they have been blinded by sin. A true prophet prophesizes punishment that will come if people do not repent.

A true prophet does not take God’s will in his own hands and start punishing people or killing them off for being bad.

This is true. Consistency is very often a sign of authenticity; this is true everywhere in the world. If you have a prophet that is radically different from any of the prophets in the old testament, then you have to call his authenticity into question, especially if he attempts to go about changing the faith as it has been understood for centuries.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes…

The other is that when Truth is revealed among the people in some form, then the devil comes afterwards to lead people away from the Truth with similiar new beliefs or practices that openly oppose Truth. The devil always comes afterwards to give another story through lying and killing…The devil is the author of lying and stealing and murder.

The books of the Bible go back 5700 years. It originated from the Jewish people. They have the Covenant of the Law…the 10 Commandments/Decalogue given us through Moses. And they have the Covenant of the Land…Israel — that tiny, tiny land given to the Jews who in turn gave us the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Israel is the Holy Land for those of Judeo-Christianity. Likewise Judeo-Christianity has no interest in taking over other people’s holy sites.

Anthropology and history are highly recommended for Muslim and Mormon scholars.

 

[elwill]

So you’re saying that you don’t believe what the Bible says because the Quran says it’s wrong. That’s called blind faith.

i believe in what the bible says as long as it dosn’t contradict what quran says

and i thnk that i can proof the credibility of my side

I have heard the story of Mohammad. With all due respect, there is absolutely no reason for me to believe he was a prophet. He did not fulfill any old Testament prophecies. Furthermore, the revelation to the prophet Mohammad in the cave was unlike any other revelation in scripture; it was a violent revelation. To me that sounds like demonic revelation rather than godly revelation. Not saying that Islam is demonic, just that it really doesn’t sound like it comes from God.

you didn’t take my advice seriously , these arn’t your own thought and results , you are reading about islam from antislamic eyes
if you want to know islam , get knowledge form their books , if you just want to dispute with it or criticize it so you are in the true path
and i respect whatever option you choose
don’t let these sites make you thinks surfacly

You didn’t read the rest of the passage! I told you to read the rest of the passage. There is more to it than “In the beginning was the word.” How can you just read the one line I posted and tell me that it doesn’t say anything? Here is the rest:

John Ch. 1

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
…
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

Clearly here “the word” refers to Jesus. Jesus was in the beginning, was with God, and was God. Through him all things were made. How does this not reveal the divinity of Christ? There is no other way of interpreting this verse. Here are more from the gospel of John:

John 10:25-39
“Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than alld; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.”

The following passage can be clearly understood (as it was by the teachers of the law) to be a claim to divinity, and it is easy to see it by reading Exodus when God appeared to Moses and identified himself as I AM.

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

I know what you’re thinking but this is NOT a weak scriptural defense. The jews picked up stones to kill Jesus. They would not do this if he were not claiming to be “I AM” (YHWH). What he said was considered blasphemy.

You simply cannot read the gospel of John and not believe in the divinity of Christ. If you can, then you are not intellectually honest.

are you believe in all the gospele and all verses of it or just some verses of them ?

This is another example of backwards reasoning. The gospels are THE most reliable source of information about the Christ. You’re calling into question their validity, and saying that because another writing existed, which was written hundreds of years later, that one must be true. What it comes down to is you believe whatever you want to be true. If you look at the writings of the earliest Church, they accept the gospels and the other writings are rejected because they were written by Gnostics and other heretics. There is good evidence for accepting the gospels:
catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0711fea3.asp

i can understand what you say
but from unbiased view , Gnostice considered be heretics according to you , and your beliefs considered to be heretics according to them
both of them existed in the first 300 years , and both of them have different views and records about jesus (pbuh)

 

[CompSciGuy]

i believe in what the bible says as long as it dosn’t contradict what quran says

and i thnk that i can proof the credibility of my side

What is your evidence?

you didn’t take my advice seriously , these arn’t your own thought and results , you are reading about islam from antislamic eyes
if you want to know islam , get knowledge form their books , if you just want to dispute with it or criticize it so you are in the true path
and i respect whatever option you choose
don’t let these sites make you thinks surfacly

Everything I have stated came from Islamic sources, not anti-Islamic. Tell me where what I have said conflicts with your Quran. Did Mohammad have these revelations in a cave? Did it involve the angel Gabriel choking him and forcing him to write down the revealed truth given to him by the angel?
And can I ask you, have you taken what I have said and done research into them? At least research the New Testament enough to know that it claims Jesus to be divine. When you say that "the Bible verses don’t claim Jesus as divine, I have to ask, have you read the gospels? I grew up with them and my father read from them to us every day. I knew from what was in the gospels that Jesus was God. At any rate, what the gospels say about Jesus is radically contrary to Islamic thought about Jesus.

are you believe in all the gospele and all verses of it or just some verses of them ?

I believe them all. And all of the verses of the gospels and the New Testament point to Jesus being divine. I can say this with complete confidence.

i can understand what you say
but from unbiased view , Gnostice considered be heretics according to you , and your beliefs considered to be heretics according to them
both of them existed in the first 300 years , and both of them have different views and records about jesus (pbuh)

elwill, with all due respect, this is where your lack of understanding of Christianity is blinding you. Gnostics are heretics by any standard. How do we determine authentic Christian teaching? That is easy. If it comes from the apostles, it is authentic. If it doesn’t, it is not. The Gnostics, from what I understand, didn’t even claim to be from the apostles. They claimed to have separate divine revelation, much like Mohammad did. As you see, there is absolutely no reason to believe the Gnostics, any more than to believe the Mormons (no offense mormons).

 

[jakasaki]

I have heard muslims say all of the time, whether in discussion or forums:

“Show me where in the Bible Jesus says **I am God **and I’ll become a Christian”

They are actually looking for these words - all verses we show them regarding Christ’s divinity are ignored.

 

[elwill]

What is your evidence?

depends on the subject

Everything I have stated came from Islamic sources, not anti-Islamic. Tell me where what I have said conflicts with your Quran. Did Mohammad have these revelations in a cave? Did it involve the angel Gabriel choking him and forcing him to write down the revealed truth given to him by the angel?

this the one which commented on it to be thinking surfacely
i think that it’s very logic for anyhuman to feel terrified in his postion
can you imagine what really happened to him in this day

And can I ask you, have you taken what I have said and done research into them? At least research the New Testament enough to know that it claims Jesus to be divine. When you say that "the Bible verses don’t claim Jesus as divine, I have to ask, have you read the gospels? I grew up with them and my father read from them to us every day. I knew from what was in the gospels that Jesus was God. At any rate, what the gospels say about Jesus is radically contrary to Islamic thought about Jesus.

i don’t think that i know the gospels more than you offcourse , that’s why i will be happy i learned from and get answers for many questions i have

I believe them all. And all of the verses of the gospels and the New Testament point to Jesus being divine. I can say this with complete confidence.

this is very good start

elwill, with all due respect, this is where your lack of understanding of Christianity is blinding you. Gnostics are heretics by any standard. How do we determine authentic Christian teaching? That is easy. If it comes from the apostles, it is authentic. If it doesn’t, it is not. The Gnostics, from what I understand, didn’t even claim to be from the apostles. They claimed to have separate divine revelation, much like Mohammad did. As you see, there is absolutely no reason to believe the Gnostics, any more than to believe the Mormons (no offense mormons).

are you wanna to say that gnostic gospeles came not from apostles and your gospeles came from apostles !

 

[jakasaki]

Quote: CompSciGuy
Everything I have stated came from Islamic sources, not anti-Islamic. Tell me where what I have said conflicts with your Quran. Did Mohammad have these revelations in a cave? **Did it involve the angel Gabriel choking him **and forcing him to write down the revealed truth given to him by the angel?

this the one which commented on it to be thinking surfacely
**i think that it’s very logic for anyhuman to feel terrified in his postion **can you imagine what really happened to him in this day

You see Elwill - here lies the problem comparing the behavior of this angel in the cave choking & squeezing Mohamad, versus the behavior of the angel in the NT.

I’ll just give you 2 passages:

Luke 1:30
But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.

Matthew 1:20
But after he had considered this, **an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid **to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

There is a big difference - do you see it…???

The first words out of the angel is "do not be afraid" - the angel that approached Mohamad in the cave did no such thing.

 

[CompSciGuy]

depends on the subject
this the one which commented on it to be thinking surfacely
i think that it’s very logic for anyhuman to feel terrified in his postion
can you imagine what really happened to him in this day

Am I to interpret that you are saying Mohammad was not literally choked but rather this was a metaphor to say that he was full of fear?

are you wanna to say that gnostic gospeles came not from apostles and your gospeles came from apostles !

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. In the case of the gnostics, divine revelation was through Gnosis (esoteric or intuitive knowledge), not through apostolic teaching:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
This is a very unreliable source. For the other heretics, you can find all the information in “Against Heresies” by Irenaeus of Lyons. None of them are reliable.

 

[Esdra]

noobio;8306997:

i don’t think that for jesus being son of God in the bible should not to make all the relegion baded on lie if christians understood such verses as those ones which said that prophets of OT are sons and childs of God as well

Short question to you elwill (which not necessarily has to do with the OP):
What does the word/abbreviation pbuh mean?

I’ve often seen Muslims write Mohammed pbuh. Or Yeshua pbuh.

Is this Arabic?

in Christ,

 

[jakasaki]

elwill;8308136:

Short question to you elwill (which not necessarily has to do with the OP):
What does the word/abbreviation pbuh mean?

I’ve often seen Muslims write Mohammed pbuh. Or Yeshua pbuh.

Is this Arabic?

in Christ,

Peace be upon him

 

[Esdra]

Peace be upon him

Aaaaaaah, thanks. I have always wondered what that means.
Now I know. Great!

I like this old phrase. I know it from old films, if someone has died and one’s speaking about him/her.

Is this phrase in English used more often?

 

[jakasaki]

Aaaaaaah, thanks. I have always wondered what that means.
Now I know. Great!

I like this old phrase. I know it from old films, if someone has died and one’s speaking about him/her.

Is this phrase in English used more often?

Yeah - sometimes but they also say it it Arabic

Mohamad Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallan Or they’ll type out SAWS

 

[jakasaki]

Aaaaaaah, thanks. I have always wondered what that means.
Now I know. Great!

I like this old phrase. I know it from old films, if someone has died and one’s speaking about him/her.

Is this phrase in English used more often?

Esdra - keep in mind that muslims don’t say “pbuh” for the heck of it -

They are commanded to say that everytime they mention mohamads name.

They also apply the “pbuh” when they mention any prophets name, including their Isa/Essa