To my Non-Catholic Christian friends: What if the Holy Spirit is guiding me to the RCC?

[Mosacked]

One more thing. ‘If’ I end up in heaven isn’t good enough for me. I really need to do EVERYTHING in my power to make sure that I (and my friends and family to whatever extent I am able to help!) get to heaven. I don’t want to come face to face with the Lord and have Him say I didn’t follow Him. That would crush me before I even got to hell.

rwillenborg, some people who are born in the mountains and live there throughout their lives never get to hear Christ. Jesus said His sheep shall hear His voice. Now assuming, just assuming you are not His sheep. Whatever voice you will be hearing will NOT be His voice. As much as you would love to, it just isn’t.

I am not trying to frighten you here. But you are aware that the names of the saved are ALREADY in the book of life. Its just a question of who. If my name or your name is not in it. You or me can go to CC today, Buddhism tomorrow, Taoism next year and you and me will still end up in Hell.

But Jesus did say this ‘Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these shall be added unto you’. Many people don’t understand what this seemingly simple statement means. They think it just says to go to church. Well, it is not. It means seek first to DO the WILL of God, and to please Him and all these ‘other’ things shall be added unto you.

How do you please God? Well, to begin with, you must communicate with God YOURSELF, so as to prevent ‘noise’ from the un-anointed who are always around to lead you astray and further away from the truth. Meditate on His word. DO THEM. By doing good and seeking to please Him, you will slowly grow in your understanding and faith and you will ultimately find the ‘eye of the needle’.

Many who sees are blind.
.

 

[AmateurPianist]

I’m guessing an AG church is very different from a Catholic one, is that right? I simply don’t understand how two people (you and me in this example) could both ask the Holy Spirit for truth, and we receive different answers!! There’s one truth. That’s what I don’t understand.
My Protestant friends say that the Eucharist is idolatry, for example! (Again, not sure if that’s what AG believes). So, on the one end, are people who say I’m going to Hell for believing that the Eucharist is the body of christ, and then the Catholics say that will help me get to heaven.
You can understand, I’m sure, that I’d really like to make sure that I get this one right!! This is my eternal soul that’s on the line here!!

Well first of all I personally don’t believe that getting the organization right is so critical your eternal soul is dependent on it.

But you probably are not wrong.

I don’t know of anybody who says you are going to hell over the Eucharist. Not to say they aren’t out there…but that line of thinking is foreign to me.

As far as your question goes…people have different personalities, backgrounds, and experiences. That is what makes us all unique. And from my perspective all organization have their upsides and downsides. None of them are perfect or intrinsically superior to the other ones. So if you start with these two assumptions, it is perfectly believable that God can lead two different believers into two different organizations.

 

[rwillenborg]

JL: Here is what I have there is more of course, but I have this handy:

My God Bless you, I will pray for your and yours.

Great stuff, JL!!! This will be VERY helpful to me!! I appreciate it!

 

[rwillenborg]

Well you’re out of agnosticism and at least in a Christian church. Praise God you believe, I couldn’t care less of which church, as long as it’s orthodox.

Are there christian churches which aren’t orthodox? What makes them not orthodox? Are they also following the Bible?
Do you think the Lord doesn’t care which church I’m in? They’re all so different from one another, that’s why i ask.
Thank you again for your time.

 

[Dokimas]

So, I spent a VERY long time away from anything related to Christian thinking, spending all my adult life as an atheist and, on my better days, agnostic. My familiarity with the Christian faith growing up was very limited, so I’m kind of looking at this with new eyes.
I pray to the Holy Spirit daily. I read Scripture daily. I really try to let the Holy Spirit guide me. My protestant acquaintances assure me that the RCC is NOT the place for me, but how can that be possible if that’s where Scripture and the Holy Spirit are leading me? The Catholic ideas of purgatory, and honor to Mary and especially the Eucharist all jump out at me from Scripture.
I really want to follow the Lord’s will for me, and the pull to the RCC is overwhelming. How could this be wrong?
I ask this with a charitable spirit and hope to get answers of the same. Thanks in advance for your time!

If God lead you to Himself through the CC, I’d be stupid to tell Him He can’t do it that way.​

As I’ve said over and over again, personally, I have NO problem with the CC, only some of its teachings. Seeing I don’t think there is one church that understands everything, then I’m not putting the CC down below my church.​

God calls us as He will and it will always be to and through His Son Jesus. It is Jesus who died for our sins, not our churches. It was Jesus that was raised from the dead so we could have newness of life, not our churches. Our churches, at best, are used by God to help in our relationship to Himself. At worst, they lead us away from a living relationship with our Savior.

 

[rwillenborg]

rwillenborg, some people who are born in the mountains and live there throughout their lives never get to hear Christ. Jesus said His sheep shall hear His voice. Now assuming, just assuming you are not His sheep. Whatever voice you will be hearing will NOT be His voice. As much as you would love to, it just isn’t.

I am not trying to frighten you here. But you are aware that the names of the saved are ALREADY in the book of life. Its just a question of who. If my name or your name is not in it. You or me can go to CC today, Buddhism tomorrow, Taoism next year and you and me will still end up in Hell.

But Jesus did say this ‘Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these shall be added unto you’. Many people don’t understand what this seemingly simple statement means. They think it just says to go to church. Well, it is not. It means seek first to DO the WILL of God, and to please Him and all these ‘other’ things shall be added unto you.

How do you please God? Well, to begin with, you must communicate with God YOURSELF, so as to prevent ‘noise’ from the un-anointed who are always around to lead you astray and further away from the truth. Meditate on His word. DO THEM. By doing good and seeking to please Him, you will slowly grow in your understanding and faith and you will ultimately find the ‘eye of the needle’.

Many who sees are blind.
.

So my life is pre-destined, is that what you’re saying?

 

[rwillenborg]

Well first of all I personally don’t believe that getting the organization right is so critical your eternal soul is dependent on it.

But you probably are not wrong.

I don’t know of anybody who says you are going to hell over the Eucharist. Not to say they aren’t out there…but that line of thinking is foreign to me.

As far as your question goes…people have different personalities, backgrounds, and experiences. That is what makes us all unique. And from my perspective all organization have their upsides and downsides. None of them are perfect or intrinsically superior to the other ones. So if you start with these two assumptions, it is perfectly believable that God can lead two different believers into two different organizations.

Hmmm…well, what DOES my eternal soul depend on? The different organizations adhere to different belief structures, so it’s not the matter of upsides or downsides, for me it’s a question of ‘Do you believe what is True?’. For example, there are many christian churches who find nothing objectionable to abortion. There are christian churches who say I am not following God’s word because i go to church on sunday, rather than Saturday. And, even though you do not know of people who believe the Eucharist is idolatry, I assure you, they exist. (They don’t take too kindly to my statue of Mary either, I’ll tell you that!) So, let me ask you this then. How would you respond to people who suggest something like the Eucharist is idolatry? And, what if they’re right, and I’m wrong? it’s hell for me, then, and I just listened to the wrong church the whole time! You see why I’m concerned about this?
There are some churches I’ve liked more than others, to be sure. There was one great big mega-church i went to. They had on-site daycare for the kids, and wonderful fellowship, and really it was such a wonderful and warm place. But I didn’t think what they were saying was Truth. Because, let’s face it, if it’s not Truth, then why bother, right? It doesnt matter how good the coffee cake is.
So, I guess my question is, if one church says abortion is wrong, and another says it’s not, someone is correct, and someone is incorrect. I want to attend the church that is correct. So, fo rme, it’s not so much an issue of upsides and downsides, it’s a question of ‘Are you following the will of the Lord?’ and I don’t see how doing two, not simply DIFFERENT things, but OPPOSING things, could BOTH be following the will of the Lord. You see my difficulty?

 

[rwillenborg]

If God lead you to Himself through the CC, I’d be stupid to tell Him He can’t do it that way.​

As I’ve said over and over again, personally, I have NO problem with the CC, only some of its teachings. Seeing I don’t think there is one church that understands everything, then I’m not putting the CC down below my church.​

God calls us as He will and it will always be to and through His Son Jesus. It is Jesus who died for our sins, not our churches. It was Jesus that was raised from the dead so we could have newness of life, not our churches. Our churches, at best, are used by God to help in our relationship to Himself. At worst, they lead us away from a living relationship with our Savior.

I understand that you personally have no problem with the CC. I’m afraid this will sound flippant what I’m about to say, but I assure you it is not meant to sound that way. I don’t care if you have a problem with the CC - it’s God’s opinions I worry about.
And, actually, since the Catholic Church CLAIMS that it is the ONE true church established by Christ, if they are in fact not that, as you are suggesting, then that makes them liars. And not just any liars, liars of the worst kind! And why would I want to be part of a church that is based on lies? Surely, if the CC is lying about WHO she is, then I shouldn’t trust her other teachings, right? So, do you see my dliema? The Catholic Church, by virtue of what she claims herself to be, CANNOT be on equal footing with any other church. She CLAIMS to be the one true church. Either she is, in which case she would have, as she claims, the ‘fullness of truth’, and she would be a step closer to Christ than all of the other churches, or she’s not, in which case, she’s a liar, and far below any other church out there.
In regards to your last sentence, I think that’s a great point, but how do you discern which churches are leading you away from this relationship with Christ?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Would you mind expounding on that point a bit? That the Church must look like the Kingdom of David? I’m very intrigued, as this is not something I’ve heard about before.
Why must the Chursh look like the Kingdom of David? Can you tell me which books specifically I could look in to see how the Kingdom of David was set up? I really appreciate it! I’d do the legwork myself on this, but I’m betting you have the answer at your fingertips.
Thanks, and like I said, I hadn’t heard this before and I am intrigued! I am always learning new things here!!

since it is long i will give you this. it will help you about the Kingdom.

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/4mrkc.html

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hmmm…well, what DOES my eternal soul depend on? The different organizations adhere to different belief structures, so it’s not the matter of upsides or downsides, for me it’s a question of ‘Do you believe what is True?’. For example, there are many christian churches who find nothing objectionable to abortion. There are christian churches who say I am not following God’s word because i go to church on sunday, rather than Saturday. And, even though you do not know of people who believe the Eucharist is idolatry, I assure you, they exist. (They don’t take too kindly to my statue of Mary either, I’ll tell you that!) So, let me ask you this then. How would you respond to people who suggest something like the Eucharist is idolatry? And, what if they’re right, and I’m wrong? it’s hell for me, then, and I just listened to the wrong church the whole time! You see why I’m concerned about this?
There are some churches I’ve liked more than others, to be sure. There was one great big mega-church i went to. They had on-site daycare for the kids, and wonderful fellowship, and really it was such a wonderful and warm place. But I didn’t think what they were saying was Truth. Because, let’s face it, if it’s not Truth, then why bother, right? It doesnt matter how good the coffee cake is.
So, I guess my question is, if one church says abortion is wrong, and another says it’s not, someone is correct, and someone is incorrect. I want to attend the church that is correct. So, fo rme, it’s not so much an issue of upsides and downsides, it’s a question of ‘Are you following the will of the Lord?’ and I don’t see how doing two, not simply DIFFERENT things, but OPPOSING things, could BOTH be following the will of the Lord. You see my difficulty?

great post. Amen

either they are all wrong and there is no way to know the Truth or One is right and all the others are wrong. but we know this much that Jesus promised the Spirit would lead the Church into all Truth. what does this mean?

 

[Dokimas]

I understand that you personally have no problem with the CC. I’m afraid this will sound flippant what I’m about to say, but I assure you it is not meant to sound that way. I don’t care if you have a problem with the CC - it’s God’s opinions I worry about. Very good point; we should all be so conserned. Thank you for reminding me and us.

And, actually, since the Catholic Church CLAIMS that it is the ONE true church established by Christ, if they are in fact not that, as you are suggesting, then that makes them liars. I disagree. It just makes them human and able to misuderstand. And not just any liars, liars of the worst kind! I’m sure that most have been well meaning, just like many protestant denominations. And why would I want to be part of a church that is based on lies? Surely, if the CC is lying about WHO she is, then I shouldn’t trust her other teachings, right? Or you could help her see her blind spots and help her change from withing (easier for those from within to help facilitate change than us on the outside.) I’m not for ‘throwing out the baby with the bath water’.
So, do you see my dliema? I don’t think you have a dilema, as I’ve pointed out. The Catholic Church, by virtue of what she claims herself to be, CANNOT be on equal footing with any other church. She CLAIMS to be the one true church. I do have a problem with her claim, just not as you are suggesting. Either she is, in which case she would have, as she claims, the ‘fullness of truth’, and she would be a step closer to Christ than all of the other churches, or she’s not, in which case, she’s a liar, and far below any other church out there.
In regards to your last sentence, I think that’s a great point, but how do you discern which churches are leading you away from this relationship with Christ? I can’t address this for others. I only hope I’m making the correct decisions for myself and revealing the Jesus of the Bible to those around me.

 

[Dokimas]

Well first of all I personally don’t believe that getting the organization right is so critical your eternal soul is dependent on it.

But you probably are not wrong.

I don’t know of anybody who says you are going to hell over the Eucharist. Not to say they aren’t out there…but that line of thinking is foreign to me.

As far as your question goes…people have different personalities, backgrounds, and experiences. That is what makes us all unique. And from my perspective all organization have their upsides and downsides. None of them are perfect or intrinsically superior to the other ones. So if you start with these two assumptions, it is perfectly believable that God can lead two different believers into two different organizations.

For what it’s worth, I agree.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Would you mind expounding on that point a bit? That the Church must look like the Kingdom of David? I’m very intrigued, as this is not something I’ve heard about before.
Why must the Chursh look like the Kingdom of David? Can you tell me which books specifically I could look in to see how the Kingdom of David was set up? I really appreciate it! I’d do the legwork myself on this, but I’m betting you have the answer at your fingertips.
Thanks, and like I said, I hadn’t heard this before and I am intrigued! I am always learning new things here!!

the Kingdom must be visible to the world since the world cannot see what is not visible. the Kingdom must have authority to speak to the world with authority.

blessings.

 

[rwillenborg]

Dokimas:
I was having trouble doing the quoting thing…I hope this is clear!

I disagree. It just makes them human and able to misuderstand. And not just any liars, liars of the worst kind! I’m sure that most have been well meaning, just like many protestant denominations.

If she misunderstands THAT, if she misunderstands who she is, and her role in the world, then how could I, or why would I trust anything else she says?

Or you could help her see her blind spots and help her change from withing (easier for those from within to help facilitate change than us on the outside.) I’m not for ‘throwing out the baby with the bath water’.

But, then, how would I know what her blind spots are, as it were? How do I know that what I am trying to change is what would need to change versus trying to change the parts of her that are true? And, let’s be frank. The Catholic church isn’t about to change based on anything I’VE got to say. And, particularly, if it’s some big doctrinal issue. Let’s say I didn’t believe that God was three persons. How would I go about convincing the church of that?
And, actually, i think it would make more sense at that point to leave the church. Why bother to change the church when I could just go to another one?

I can’t address this for others. I only hope I’m making the correct decisions for myself and revealing the Jesus of the Bible to those around me.

Aint that the truth! All we can do is try to be a light to others, right?

I just wanted to let you know, too, I appreciate you taking all this time to discuss these issues with me. It’s the type of thing that if I just let it swirl around in my own head, I just end up at the beginning and want to go eat some cookies!!

 

[rwillenborg]

since it is long i will give you this. it will help you about the Kingdom.

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/4mrkc.html

Thanks so much! I will read this over when I have some more time!!

 

[wisdomseeker]

I was having trouble doing the quoting thing…I hope this is clear!

I disagree. It just makes them human and able to misuderstand. And not just any liars, liars of the worst kind! I’m sure that most have been well meaning, just like many protestant denominations.

If she misunderstands THAT, if she misunderstands who she is, and her role in the world, then how could I, or why would I trust anything else she says?

Or you could help her see her blind spots and help her change from withing (easier for those from within to help facilitate change than us on the outside.) I’m not for ‘throwing out the baby with the bath water’.

But, then, how would I know what her blind spots are, as it were? How do I know that what I am trying to change is what would need to change versus trying to change the parts of her that are true? And, let’s be frank. The Catholic church isn’t about to change based on anything I’VE got to say. And, particularly, if it’s some big doctrinal issue. Let’s say I didn’t believe that God was three persons. How would I go about convincing the church of that?
And, actually, i think it would make more sense at that point to leave the church. Why bother to change the church when I could just go to another one?

I can’t address this for others. I only hope I’m making the correct decisions for myself and revealing the Jesus of the Bible to those around me.

Aint that the truth! All we can do is try to be a light to others, right?

I just wanted to let you know, too, I appreciate you taking all this time to discuss these issues with me. It’s the type of thing that if I just let it swirl around in my own head, I just end up at the beginning and want to go eat some cookies!!

Very good. and for you to change the Church, you would have to know that you know the Truth. and if you know the Truth would make more sense to just go ahead and build your own Church so others would follow you because you would have the Truth. hope this makes sense.

blessings.

 

[Dokimas]

I was having trouble doing the quoting thing…I hope this is clear!

I disagree. It just makes them human and able to misuderstand. And not just any liars, liars of the worst kind! I’m sure that most have been well meaning, just like many protestant denominations.

If she misunderstands THAT, if she misunderstands who she is, and her role in the world, then how could I, or why would I trust anything else she says? Did you disown your parents when you realized they weren’t perfect?

Or you could help her see her blind spots and help her change from withing (easier for those from within to help facilitate change than us on the outside.) I’m not for ‘throwing out the baby with the bath water’.

But, then, how would I know what her blind spots are, as it were? How do I know that what I am trying to change is what would need to change versus trying to change the parts of her that are true? And, let’s be frank. The Catholic church isn’t about to change based on anything I’VE got to say. And, particularly, if it’s some big doctrinal issue. Let’s say I didn’t believe that God was three persons. How would I go about convincing the church of that? You’d have to come against the whole of Christianity on that one, the Trinity, that is.And, actually, i think it would make more sense at that point to leave the church. Why bother to change the church when I could just go to another one? Guess what, there is not perfect church cuz we’re in them and they are made up of humans. So no matter what church you’d go to, there will be misunderstandings (look at the 40,000 denominations ).
I can’t address this for others. I only hope I’m making the correct decisions for myself and revealing the Jesus of the Bible to those around me. You sound sincere so you probably are. God bless you in this most noble of endevours…

Aint that the truth! All we can do is try to be a light to others, right? Yes!!!

I just wanted to let you know, too, I appreciate you taking all this time to discuss these issues with me. I love interacting with people about what we love most: Jesus of Nazareth. It’s the type of thing that if I just let it swirl around in my own head, I just end up at the beginning and want to go eat some cookies!! Got any extra for me???​

God be with and bless you and yours richly.

 

[elvisman]

rwillenborg, some people who are born in the mountains and live there throughout their lives never get to hear Christ. Jesus said His sheep shall hear His voice. Now assuming, just assuming you are not His sheep. Whatever voice you will be hearing will NOT be His voice. As much as you would love to, it just isn’t.

I am not trying to frighten you here. But you are aware that the names of the saved are ALREADY in the book of life. Its just a question of who. If my name or your name is not in it. You or me can go to CC today, Buddhism tomorrow, Taoism next year and you and me will still end up in Hell.

But Jesus did say this ‘Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these shall be added unto you’. Many people don’t understand what this seemingly simple statement means. They think it just says to go to church. Well, it is not. It means seek first to DO the WILL of God, and to please Him and all these ‘other’ things shall be added unto you.

How do you please God? Well, to begin with, you must communicate with God YOURSELF, so as to prevent ‘noise’ from the un-anointed who are always around to lead you astray and further away from the truth. Meditate on His word. DO THEM. By doing good and seeking to please Him, you will slowly grow in your understanding and faith and you will ultimately find the ‘eye of the needle’.

Many who sees are blind.
.

**Your beliefs in in the falshood that is predestination is not only confusing but contradictory. It is all based on a misunderstanding of what eternity is. **

Heaven is outside of time - everything is in the now. If your name is already in the Book of Life - it’s because our past, present and future are all taking place at the same time in heaven.

**What cracks me up about these Calvinist falsehoods is that they make Jesus into an idiot. Why would he issue the Great commission at the end of Matthew’s Gospel? **IF total predestination is correct (which it isn’t, according to Scripture) there would be no need to evangelize because all of our fates would be sealed and our free will would have been rendered null and void.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Hmmm…well, what DOES my eternal soul depend on?

Jesus.

The different organizations adhere to different belief structures, so it’s not the matter of upsides or downsides, for me it’s a question of ‘Do you believe what is True?’. For example, there are many christian churches who find nothing objectionable to abortion. There are christian churches who say I am not following God’s word because i go to church on sunday, rather than Saturday. And, even though you do not know of people who believe the Eucharist is idolatry, I assure you, they exist. (They don’t take too kindly to my statue of Mary either, I’ll tell you that!) So, let me ask you this then. How would you respond to people who suggest something like the Eucharist is idolatry? And, what if they’re right, and I’m wrong? it’s hell for me, then, and I just listened to the wrong church the whole time! You see why I’m concerned about this?
There are some churches I’ve liked more than others, to be sure. There was one great big mega-church i went to. They had on-site daycare for the kids, and wonderful fellowship, and really it was such a wonderful and warm place. But I didn’t think what they were saying was Truth. Because, let’s face it, if it’s not Truth, then why bother, right? It doesnt matter how good the coffee cake is.
So, I guess my question is, if one church says abortion is wrong, and another says it’s not, someone is correct, and someone is incorrect. I want to attend the church that is correct. So, fo rme, it’s not so much an issue of upsides and downsides, it’s a question of ‘Are you following the will of the Lord?’ and I don’t see how doing two, not simply DIFFERENT things, but OPPOSING things, could BOTH be following the will of the Lord. You see my difficulty?

You obviously believe that your organization is 100% correct and all of the remaining organizations less so.

What if none of our organizations are 100% correct? What if we all are wrong to some extent?

 

[rwillenborg]

Jesus.

You obviously believe that your organization is 100% correct and all of the remaining organizations less so.

What if none of our organizations are 100% correct? What if we all are wrong to some extent?

Although I agree that salvation is granted through Jesus, if you could flesh out your answer a bit I would appreciate it. I am really trying to understand the Christain faith more, and hearing from other Christians is very helpful on this journey.

You say I obviously believe my organization is 100% correct. Was that what was obvious? I apologize for the confusion. I’m not a Catholic. I thought I had said earlier, maybe I hadn’t. I only recently came to understand the person of Christ and am now looking at the various faiths and am amazed at how they all vary SO wildly in their beliefs! What I was trying to make obvious is that the Catholic church CLAIMS to be the one true church established by Jesus christ. That is who she says she is. i do not claim the Catholic church is 100% correct. The Catholic Church herself claims that.
Either she is very, very mistaken as was suggested by another poster, in which case, why would I trust her on anything else she says, OR she’s a liar of the highest degree, in which case, I would also run from that church as fast as I could.
I believe that if the Catholic Church IS right on this matter (I’m not convinced yet that she is) then, yes, since all churches vary at least slightly in their doctrine from the RCC, then they would be LESS correct than the Catholic church.

On to your other questions now…what if none of our organizations are 100% correct? Then we’re all hosed. Seriously, if EVERY single church out there isn’t fully teaching what Christ taught, then what good are they to me? how can a church that is teaching falsehoods help me get closer to Christ? Even if they are THISCLOSE to teaching what Christ taught, I have no assurance that I alone am capable of weeding out what they’re correct on. If no church is going to help me fully get to Christ, then I suppose I just wouldn’t bother with any of them. So, if that’s the case, that NO ONE is completely right, and other people, who are much holier than me are coming to different conclusions, then surely I don’t stand a chance of being the ONLY one who is right, either. There are lots of people MUCH smarter than me, and if THEY got all this wrong, I can already tell you I’m going to get it wrong, too.
What do you think?