To my Non-Catholic Christian friends: What if the Holy Spirit is guiding me to the RCC?

[rwillenborg]

To Domikas:
Did you disown your parents when you realized they weren’t perfect?

No, they also never claimed to be perfect. That’s the difference. They weren’t perfect, but they never suggested they were either. Had they claimed to be perfect and I later found out they weren’t, I wouldn’t have disowned them, but I certainly wouldn’t have trusted their judgement again.

Guess what, there is not perfect church cuz we’re in them and they are made up of humans. So no matter what church you’d go to, there will be misunderstandings (look at the 40,000 denominations ).

That there are 40K denominations is sad. I didn’t know that. I knew there were many, but I didn’t know that many! It was alot easier to be an agnostic looking out at all those denominations. If Christians can’t even agree among themselves, I reasoned, why should I join their ranks? Then, i decided to be a little less lazy about it. And now I’m typing away to strangers in internet land!! LOL!

Got any extra for me???

If I could send them through an internet connection, I promise you I would!!! My waistline doesn’t need ANY of them. Homemade chocolate chip. Seriously. How can I NOT eat these? LOL!

 

[rwillenborg]

Very good. and for you to change the Church, you would have to know that you know the Truth. and if you know the Truth would make more sense to just go ahead and build your own Church so others would follow you because you would have the Truth. hope this makes sense.

blessings.

It does make sense, yes thank you!

 

[Angels_Heart]

So, I spent a VERY long time away from anything related to Christian thinking, spending all my adult life as an atheist and, on my better days, agnostic. My familiarity with the Christian faith growing up was very limited, so I’m kind of looking at this with new eyes.
I pray to the Holy Spirit daily. I read Scripture daily. I really try to let the Holy Spirit guide me. My protestant acquaintances assure me that the RCC is NOT the place for me, but how can that be possible if that’s where Scripture and the Holy Spirit are leading me? The Catholic ideas of purgatory, and honor to Mary and especially the Eucharist all jump out at me from Scripture.
I really want to follow the Lord’s will for me, and the pull to the RCC is overwhelming. How could this be wrong?
I ask this with a charitable spirit and hope to get answers of the same. Thanks in advance for your time!

Your protestant acquaintances need to mind their own business ,go to the RCC it is your life.,

 

[4Squarebaby]

Are there christian churches which aren’t orthodox? What makes them not orthodox? Are they also following the Bible?
Do you think the Lord doesn’t care which church I’m in? They’re all so different from one another, that’s why i ask.
Thank you again for your time.

Orthodox in this sense means Christians who have added to the Bible. In also using The Book of Mormon for example. It also applies to the Christians who do not believe in the Trinity, that Jesus is the Son of God but not God as the Jehovah Witnesses, Inglesia Ni Cristo and Oneness Pentecostals do.

Believing that God wants us in a specific denomination is not held by most Protestants, those that do hold to that are often accused of being in a cult. Most Protestants don’t even hold that they have “more” or perfect truth on their side like the Catholic and Mormon Churches do. But if you search you can find a writer or denomination that does hold that position. The Seventh Day Adventist comes to mind as one that comes close to stating that.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I understand that you personally have no problem with the CC. I’m afraid this will sound flippant what I’m about to say, but I assure you it is not meant to sound that way. I don’t care if you have a problem with the CC - it’s God’s opinions I worry about.
And, actually, since the Catholic Church CLAIMS that it is the ONE true church established by Christ, if they are in fact not that, as you are suggesting, then that makes them liars. And not just any liars, liars of the worst kind! And why would I want to be part of a church that is based on lies? Surely, if the CC is lying about WHO she is, then I shouldn’t trust her other teachings, right? So, do you see my dliema? The Catholic Church, by virtue of what she claims herself to be, CANNOT be on equal footing with any other church. She CLAIMS to be the one true church. Either she is, in which case she would have, as she claims, the ‘fullness of truth’, and she would be a step closer to Christ than all of the other churches, or she’s not, in which case, she’s a liar, and far below any other church out there.
In regards to your last sentence, I think that’s a great point, but how do you discern which churches are leading you away from this relationship with Christ?

Although I agree that salvation is granted through Jesus, if you could flesh out your answer a bit I would appreciate it. I am really trying to understand the Christain faith more, and hearing from other Christians is very helpful on this journey.

You say I obviously believe my organization is 100% correct. Was that what was obvious? I apologize for the confusion. I’m not a Catholic. I thought I had said earlier, maybe I hadn’t. I only recently came to understand the person of Christ and am now looking at the various faiths and am amazed at how they all vary SO wildly in their beliefs! What I was trying to make obvious is that the Catholic church CLAIMS to be the one true church established by Jesus christ. That is who she says she is. i do not claim the Catholic church is 100% correct. The Catholic Church herself claims that.
Either she is very, very mistaken as was suggested by another poster, in which case, why would I trust her on anything else she says, OR she’s a liar of the highest degree, in which case, I would also run from that church as fast as I could.
I believe that if the Catholic Church IS right on this matter (I’m not convinced yet that she is) then, yes, since all churches vary at least slightly in their doctrine from the RCC, then they would be LESS correct than the Catholic church.

On to your other questions now…what if none of our organizations are 100% correct? Then we’re all hosed. Seriously, if EVERY single church out there isn’t fully teaching what Christ taught, then what good are they to me? how can a church that is teaching falsehoods help me get closer to Christ? Even if they are THISCLOSE to teaching what Christ taught, I have no assurance that I alone am capable of weeding out what they’re correct on. If no church is going to help me fully get to Christ, then I suppose I just wouldn’t bother with any of them. So, if that’s the case, that NO ONE is completely right, and other people, who are much holier than me are coming to different conclusions, then surely I don’t stand a chance of being the ONLY one who is right, either. There are lots of people MUCH smarter than me, and if THEY got all this wrong, I can already tell you I’m going to get it wrong, too.
What do you think?

Goodness, you sound just like I did when I started my journey home. Good luck to you R… It will most definitely help to read the writings of the church fathers, they have many on NewAdvent.org. I strongly suggest Irenaeus and the Didache.

Everyone in my life thought I was crazy/an idiot/or doing this for someone other than God when I converted. Dont let anyone talk you out of your search.

Dominus vobiscum.

FSC

P.S. The whole “true Church” thing comes down to the whole “was Christ God” thing. There are three options, either He was and We are Liars; He was and we are crazy; or He Was and we are telling the truth.

 

[JonNC]

Your protestant acquaintances need to mind their own business ,go to the RCC it is your life.,

I agree, Angels Heart. What would your honest reaction be if the OP was planning on leaving the Catholic Church for, say, the Lutheran Church? Would you say his Catholic aquaintances need to mind their own business, go the the Lutheran Church it is your life?

Jon

 

[rwillenborg]

Your protestant acquaintances need to mind their own business ,go to the RCC it is your life.,

LOL! Oh, they’re just looking out for me. I really think they’re trying to guide me to what they think is the best for me. I brought all this on myself anyway. I was the one who started talking with them about all of this so, when you ask for opinions, you get 'em, that’s for sure!! LOL!

 

[rwillenborg]

Believing that God wants us in a specific denomination is not held by most Protestants, those that do hold to that are often accused of being in a cult. Most Protestants don’t even hold that they have “more” or perfect truth on their side like the Catholic and Mormon Churches do. But if you search you can find a writer or denomination that does hold that position. The Seventh Day Adventist comes to mind as one that comes close to stating that.

Hmmm…this is very interesting.
So, for most Protestants, one church is just the same as another? But don’t they teach different things? For example, Methodists and Presbyterian churches have a pro-choice stance, while Pentecostal churches have a pro-life stance and groups like the Southern Baptists have changed their mind on the matter. How could all of these cuhurches be upholding equal truths?

 

[AmateurPianist]

Although I agree that salvation is granted through Jesus, if you could flesh out your answer a bit I would appreciate it. I am really trying to understand the Christain faith more, and hearing from other Christians is very helpful on this journey.

Sure. I probably was too abrupt the previous time.

You say I obviously believe my organization is 100% correct. Was that what was obvious?

Then I misspoke. Sorry.

I apologize for the confusion. I’m not a Catholic. I thought I had said earlier, maybe I hadn’t. I only recently came to understand the person of Christ and am now looking at the various faiths and am amazed at how they all vary SO wildly in their beliefs!

I understand. That can be confusing.

What I was trying to make obvious is that the Catholic church CLAIMS to be the one true church established by Jesus christ. That is who she says she is.

And it claims a superior->inferior relationship to all other organizations in at least three very important respects:
(1) There is no salvation outside of the Catholic organization
(2) Only the leadership of the Catholic organization is protected from ever teaching anything wrong.
(3) The real presence is exclusive to the Catholics and Orthodox. Protestants are excluded from this.
The issue in my mind is whether from God’s perspective He looks at one organization and one organization as only His church.

i do not claim the Catholic church is 100% correct. The Catholic Church herself claims that.
Either she is very, very mistaken as was suggested by another poster, in which case, why would I trust her on anything else she says, OR she’s a liar of the highest degree, in which case, I would also run from that church as fast as I could.

I am not convinced that from God’s perspective only one organization can be exclusively His church. I agree that it started out that way, but as time progressed this one organization fragmented. That is a historical fact.

As a corollary I am not convinced that it is necessary from God’s perspective that one and only one organization be absolutely correct in everything that it teaches. Therefore I believe that it is possible that all organizations are wrong. Then when I do a statistical analysis on the number of issues where different organizations differ in their opinions and the number of opinions possible on each issue, I am forced to conclude that statistically it is very, very probable that all organizations are wrong to some extent unless God looks at the church through one organization and one organization and gives this one organization a gift that He can not give to anybody else, that being the gift of being 100% correct.

If you read my analogy at the end of the second half of this post (with pope JP II and John Wesley) you will understand why this makes perfect sense to me given my assumptions (if I had to do it over again I would have put it first). My thoughts on this matter have cojme from observing real life and men I respect very much in history and drawing logical conclusions from these observations.

continued

 

[AmateurPianist]

I believe that if the Catholic Church IS right on this matter (I’m not convinced yet that she is) then, yes, since all churches vary at least slightly in their doctrine from the RCC, then they would be LESS correct than the Catholic church.

That is logical.

On to your other questions now…what if none of our organizations are 100% correct? Then we’re all hosed. Seriously, if EVERY single church out there isn’t fully teaching what Christ taught, then what good are they to me?

I think the right question is to look at this from God’s perspective. From God’s perspective are we “hosed” if the organization we choose to hook up with is teaching something that is not quite right. Or can God still move and draw people to Himself and draw people closer to Himself through organizations that don’t have it all right? Now I believe the answer to this question is yes.

Furthermore when I look at 1 Cor. 13 I read that if I possess all knowledge but have not love, I am nothing. This tells me, that while knowledge is still not unimportant, that Christian love and Christian character are more important from God’s perspective than being right in everything I believe. That is comforting to me. Instead of pursuing being right, I should pursue being loving and being holy.

how can a church that is teaching falsehoods help me get closer to Christ?

I can testify personally that I have attended churches that have proclaimed mutually exclusive doctrines and that all of them have helped me get closer to Christ.

Even if they are THISCLOSE to teaching what Christ taught, I have no assurance that I alone am capable of weeding out what they’re correct on.

You probably would not be. If God is drawing you to a particular assembly, it would probably be safest to just believe what they are telling you unless you hear the voice of God speaking to you that it is not correct.

If no church is going to help me fully get to Christ, then I suppose I just wouldn’t bother with any of them.

You see I believe that churches that are wrong can at the same time draw you to Christ.

So, if that’s the case, that NO ONE is completely right, and other people, who are much holier than me are coming to different conclusions, then surely I don’t stand a chance of being the ONLY one who is right, either.

Funny you raise this because I have had the same thoughts. But I look at it this way…I observe folks who are much holier than me (say for example Pope JP II and John Wesley). Obviously these two disagreed on much in this life. But obviously these two will both be in heaven. And I believe these two will have very honored positions in heaven; more honored than little old me.

If that is the case, that both of these two are in heaven and occupy positions of honor in heaven, the only logical conclusion I can make is that (1) One or both of them are wrong on potentially a large number of issues (2) These issues are not important in the long run because both of them occupy positions of honor in heaven.

I know of no other conclusions I can logically make if I assume both John Wesley and Pope JP II are in heaven and are very honored in heaven for the lives that they lived on earth.

There are lots of people MUCH smarter than me, and if THEY got all this wrong, I can already tell you I’m going to get it wrong, too.
What do you think?

Agree. But what you have to ask yourself is are there people who are also a lot more loving and a lot more holy than either you or me who are in heaven occupying positions of honor in heaven who at the same time held mutually exclusive beliefs while on earth.

If you believe that this is possible and likely, then what logical conclusion follow from this belief.

 

[AmateurPianist]

That there are 40K denominations is sad.

I am very suspicious of this number and believe it should be fact checked big time. Last year the number du-jour was 30,000.

In my county phone book there are 35 Christian organizations. This of a population between 70K and 100K. I wonder how many organizations are in our nations very large cities like New York City or LA. I suspect closer to 300 if that. So where does the 30,000 come from if our very large cities have 300 or so?

 

[Publisher]

I am very suspicious of this number and believe it should be fact checked big time. Last year the number du-jour was 30,000.

In my county phone book there are 35 Christian organizations. This of a population between 70K and 100K. I wonder how many organizations are in our nations very large cities like New York City or LA. I suspect closer to 300 if that. So where does the 30,000 come from if our very large cities have 300 or so?

From what some of the previous posts on the 30K number indicate…there are numerous Catholic churches as well…national churches are numbered as individual churches…so the Catholic church in the USA is a separate church than the Catholic church in Mexico, if I understood the criticism of the number game correctly…of course the Catholics reply that there is only one Catholic church…even though the figures they recite in regard to Protestant churches are from the same source that numbers the CC as numerous as well…seems to me to perpetuate that inflated figure is not speaking from that Center of Truth and Light…but instead perpetuates deceit and error…something I would think whether Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox or ??? would not wish to perpetuate…other than to give credence to falsehood.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Orthodox in this sense means Christians who have added to the Bible. In also using The Book of Mormon for example. It also applies to the Christians who do not believe in the Trinity, that Jesus is the Son of God but not God as the Jehovah Witnesses, Inglesia Ni Cristo and Oneness Pentecostals do.

Believing that God wants us in a specific denomination is not held by most Protestants, those that do hold to that are often accused of being in a cult. Most Protestants don’t even hold that they have “more” or perfect truth on their side like the Catholic and Mormon Churches do. But if you search you can find a writer or denomination that does hold that position. The Seventh Day Adventist comes to mind as one that comes close to stating that.

Just a small correction:

Oneness Pentecostals do believe that Jesus is God, but they have a different view altogether of the Godhead. They are monarchianists, they believe that Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

7th Day are dangerous as they teach that Jesus = Michael the Archangel. Would they still be considered Christians, despite believing in a strange version of Jesus Christ?

 

[Publisher]

Just a small correction:

Oneness Pentecostals do believe that Jesus is God, but they have a different view altogether of the Godhead. They are monarchianists, they believe that Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

**7th Day are dangerous as they teach that Jesus = Michael the Archangel. Would they still be considered Christians, despite believing in a strange version of Jesus Christ?/**QUOTE]

As I understand, while the SDA’s share with the JW’s that in the OT the pre-existent Christ was referenced as Michael…they do hold to the trinitarian view as do most Protestants and Catholics…how they see the pre-existent Christ does not change their view of the Trinity.

 

[rwillenborg]

I am very suspicious of this number and believe it should be fact checked big time. Last year the number du-jour was 30,000.

In my county phone book there are 35 Christian organizations. This of a population between 70K and 100K. I wonder how many organizations are in our nations very large cities like New York City or LA. I suspect closer to 300 if that. So where does the 30,000 come from if our very large cities have 300 or so?

Domikas provided that number earlier in the thread. So, I’m not sure. Maybe Domikas could shed some light on this.

 

[elvisman]

I am very suspicious of this number and believe it should be fact checked big time. Last year the number du-jour was 30,000.

In my county phone book there are 35 Christian organizations. This of a population between 70K and 100K. I wonder how many organizations are in our nations very large cities like New York City or LA. I suspect closer to 300 if that. So where does the 30,000 come from if our very large cities have 300 or so?

The number comes from the World Christian Encyclopedia.
Here is a link to the information:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

 

[kempo1]

Just remember that if you feel you are being called to the C.C. trust in God and go. You will always have people trying to pull you one way or another. Some people are actually raised up and indoctinated in beliefs that everything Catholic is evil, unholy, wrong, etc. Search your heart and pray and God will answer just trust in him and not man. I personally left for a while and what i found was a whole lot missing, contradicting doctrines , a lot of confusion, and so on. What i did was researched and prayed and wow!!! boy was i ever pulled back to the truth. Just my experience hope it helps.

 

[Mosacked]

Your beliefs in in the falshood that is predestination is not only confusing but contradictory. It is all based on a misunderstanding of what eternity is.

**Heaven is outside **of time - everything is in the now. If your name is already in the Book of Life - it’s because our past, present and future are all taking place at the same time in heaven.

What cracks me up about these Calvinist falsehoods is that they make Jesus into an idiot. Why would he issue the Great commission at the end of Matthew’s Gospel? IF total predestination is correct (which it isn’t, according to Scripture) there would be no need to evangelize because all of our fates would be sealed and our free will would have been rendered null and void.

You are right when you said you are confused. If everything is in the now liked you said and your now is not with God, doesn’t that mean you are not part of the kingdom? Is that not also pre-destination?

Don’t speak of things you understand not and accuse them of falsehood when all you can do is make noise.

 

[Bob4BVM]

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear in my initial post as to what my point is.
Actually, your post kind of makes my point.
The Holy Spirit led your father AWAY from the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit is leading me TOWARDS the Catholic Church. How can that be? Why would the Holy Spirit lead one person to one set of doctrines and lead another to another set of doctrines when both people were simply asking to be led towards the Truth?
I guess, after floating around in the la-la land of agnosticism for so long, I’d really like to find the Truth and I’m getting so many comflicting views from so many angles. I simply want to do God’s will and be in His Church.

I’m seeking the Truth, whatever that might be, and I don’t understand how there could possibly be conflicting truths.

Does that clear up my point at all?

We are ALL His children, wherever we may worship him, or even if we do not.
He sees every soul He’s created with equal value. Gives them equal love.
That is always true.
Now, if as you say, you are looking specifically for the Church Jesus established, it is still there. Divinely created and inspired, though very Human in its membership and its rocky 2000-year history. That is not so amazing when you consider Christ’s promise to be with it always, send the Holy Spirit to guide it, and to protect it.

 

[elvisman]

You are right when you said you are confused. If everything is in the now liked you said and your now is not with God, doesn’t that mean you are not part of the kingdom? Is that not also pre-destination?

Don’t speak of things you understand not and accuse them of falsehood when all you can do is make noise.

Well that makes a lot of sense . . . NOT!
You’re STILL not getting it.

The “NOW” for God is our forever. He is not constrained by time as we are. If your name is written in the Book of Life at some point in YOUR life later one - it always was with God. This is not predestination. WE are responsible for the choices we make - NOT God.

Here is another analogy:
God sees everything that has ever happened as a finished painting. Those in past history HAVE painted it - WE, who are alive now ARE painting it - and those in the future WILL paint it. However, since God is not constrained by time - he sees it ALL NOW.
Get it now?

Maybe a philosophy class or two would help . . .**