To Planten or any other Muslim

[paarsurrey]

Okay, dolphinlove’s request may have been a bit unreasonable to a certain extent, but you could have been more convincing if you responded without using the words “I think” right after that post. Also, could you please list some of those virgin births (that aren’t myths)?

Hi

There was a discussion going on in another threadwhere somebody mentioned of a virgin birht of Alexander the Great. I also mentioned some names, I thing I should repeat that post here.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3123020&postcount=72

Re: Anglican leader questions Nativity story
Originally Posted by **Neil_Anthony **

There is no real difference between the two paragraphs above because they are both written from the perspective of disbelief. Disbelief that Alexander the Great was the son of a god, and diseblief that Jesus Christ was the son of God.

Now, here’s how a believer would write it:

Although Jesus was brought up by Joseph and his mother Mary, he was actually the son of God, not the son of Joseph. The story of Mary’s virginal conception through the Holy Spirit and the virgin birth is given in the beginning chapters of the gospels of Matthew and Luke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by **patg **

Yes, I agree - that is how a believer would write it. But that ignores the real question - if a believer believes the above because of the stories in the beginning chapters of the two gospels then simple logic implies that the believer also believes in the divinity of many other leaders.

Originally Posted by Paarsurrey

Hi

I had read that Elexander the Great was born of a virgin, similarly, I had read in distant past, please excuse me as I have no ready references to quote, that Changez Khan, and a Chinese Emperor who found a dynasty were also born of virgins with sort of similiar dreams to their mothers, were also without fathers, the dreams got fullfilled. I also found a tale among the native tribes of America, one of their tribal Kings was born of virgin.

If anybody else has the same information, please provide the sources.

So there are several virgins giving birth to sons who later became famous persons in the history.

Thanks

 

[inJESUS]

Paar, trying to turn round the bush by presenting it as a natural phenomena by presenting myth, will not change the fact that as per Quran, it was a miracle.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Our (Ahmadia Muslim) understanding of a miracle is what I posted on another thread here, I repeat it:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3132611&postcount=70

Re: Predictions of Muhammad (pbuh) in the BibleQuote:
Originally Posted by **De Maria **

A miracle is something done without explanation. A mystery. In fact, I think all would agree that men are incapable of miracles. They are done by God through men or through other media or no media at all. But miracles are from God.
Predicting the future is a type of miracle. But “prophecy” is not necessarily the predicting of future events.
De Maria

Originally posted by paarsurrey

Hi

What are the miracles?- Ahmadia understanding.

With the possibility of virgin birth being wide open, it does not remain to be all that impossible and unnatural. Where is the need to search for a supernatural explanation of Jesus’ birth, or even go beyond that to the farthest extreme of believing in the birth of a literal ‘Son’ of God through a human birth? When all this is observed as a fact of nature, why is it hard to believe that the birth of Jesus Christ was a hidden natural phenomenon, brought about by a special design of God?

Something happened in Mary which gave that child a miraculous birth, without a man having touched her. It is the Ahmadiyya Muslim belief that this is exactly what happened. Our case is unshakeable because no scientist can dismiss it as nonsensical or opposed to the known laws of nature.

Miracles are not seen in Islam as unnatural occurrences, but as natural phenomena that are concealed from human knowledge at that period of time. Otherwise, there would be many questions raised against the wisdom of God. If God created the laws of nature Himself, He should have made some provisions whereby without breaking them, He could bring about desired solutions to a problem.

Not all laws are known to man. There are categories of laws working as if in different tiers and on separate plains. Sometimes they are known to man only on one plain and man’s sight is not able to penetrate beyond. As time goes on, man’s knowledge increases, so does the penetration and his capacity to observe such laws as hitherto remained unperceived. In another era of scientific progress, new discoveries throw more light on such laws which seem to work in groups. So, not only is their function better understood but also their interaction with other laws.

Those things that appeared to be miracles in the early ages are no longer considered so. Miracles are so, only in relation to man’s knowledge in a specific period of time. When a special exercise of God’s power is displayed, apparently a law is broken. But it is not so; it is a hidden law that was already there and came into operation through God’s command. The people of that time could not have understood that law nor had they any control over it.

For example, the force of magnetism was not known to man a few thousand years ago. If somebody had accidentally discovered it and had contrived a device by which he could levitate things without any apparent cause discernible to the naked eye and to the wonderment of everyone, he could then exclaim, ‘Lo, a miracle, a miracle’. Today, such tricks are considered common place and trivial.

The knowledge of man is limited whereas that of God is unlimited. If a law comes into operation that is beyond the scope of man’s knowledge, it looks like a miracle. But looking retrospectively at such instances with the hindsight of knowledge gained since, we can dismiss all such so-called breaches of the laws of nature as merely natural phenomena which were not fully comprehended by the man of that age.

This is why I said that there had to be a natural phenomenon responsible for the single parent birth of Jesus Christ, which was unknown to man of that period; it is not fully known to man even today. But science is advancing in that direction and more is being understood. A time may therefore come, when no one will be able to claim that the birth of Jesus was unnatural. They would have to agree that it was a natural but rare occurrence, so rare that it seldom occurs in human experience.
alislam.org/library/books…#pgfId-1006069

Thanks

 

[inJESUS]

No wonder you are not considered Muslims by mainstream Islam because the Quran does not report it as a natural phenomen.

What are the miracles?- Ahmadia understanding.

With the possibility of virgin birth being wide open,(

ya i encounter such cases every single day.

it does not remain to be all that impossible and unnatural.

indeed…maybe scientists must start investigating it and end up having women with no need of a male…am sure some women will be delighted, especially lesbians.

Where is the need to search for a supernatural explanation of Jesus’ birth,

the Quran, am afraid unless it states it as a normal phenomena.

When all this is observed as a fact of nature, why is it hard to believe that the birth of Jesus Christ was a hidden natural phenomenon, brought about by a special design of God?

because when Mary asked Gabriel how can this be if she knows no man, he did not answer : heck you don’t need a man its a natural phenomena.

what Muhammad did to Jesus’ teachings, Ghulam Ahmad is doing it to Muhammad’s teachings : trivializing them because they don’t like the outcome and because it does not support their religions.

 

[planten]

Planten you wrote in another thread:

Quran tells us that God arranged her marriage i.e. God selected her husband. It is a long story. Husband is not named in the Quran but we know it from the bible that it was Joseph.

My question is : why was Jesus born without a biological father?

I had written what I had written. I remain to that only. If there is a question about that then I may reply. But I am not interested in the matter of biologicl or spiritual birth as the matter is not clear to me. You may give your views and keep discussing. There are other friends on this forum. Thanks.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

There was a discussion going on in another threadwhere somebody mentioned of a virgin birht of Alexander the Great. I also mentioned some names, I thing I should repeat that post here.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3123020&postcount=72

So there are several virgins giving birth to sons who later became famous persons in the history.

Thanks

No Paar. Even if Alexander and those other few personages were born without biological fathers, that would still make it miraculous happenings. Not natural.

However, there is only one such documented case with substantial evidence. Jesus Christ.

Now, please. If you want us to take Alexander’s story seriously, or anyone else’s, provide the documents, traceable through history. Many have claimed to be God. No others have verifiably raised the dead, cured the blind and sick nor provided the wisdom and teachings comparable to Jesus Christ AND had all this documented and verified by an authority like the Catholic Church. Which Herself has stood the test of time.

Again, I suppose because Mohammed set the example, you think that just because you say so, we will believe such a far fetched idea with no evidence. But that is not the case.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

Our (Ahmadia Muslim) understanding of a miracle is what I posted on another thread here, I repeat it:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3132611&postcount=70

Thanks

And I repeat my answer to the Ahmadelian concept of miracle. It doesn’t matter how many times people can clone other people. It is still not the NATURAL means of reproduction.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[CTA1967]

What is unreasonable about wanting a straight answer to the question?

What I meant was that, as far as I can see from the Muslims on this forum, pretty much all of their explanations come down to “I think… because Mohammad is right”.

 

[paarsurrey]

However, there is only one such documented case with substantial evidence. Jesus Christ.

Hi

I think that is quite an exaggeration. There is no secular historic documented evidence or medical evidence in this connection with you.

The birth was absolutely normal birth any physician would agree. Every child is born from a mother, likewise so many persons have born from virgins, so the birth is natural.

It is only conception to their mother which is not so natural or unusal, but in no case it has been medically documented, it is only between their mothers and GodAllahYHWH.

We Muslim only believe because Quran has mentioned about Mary conceiving a child under Allah’s commandment, later named Jesus. So the conception in these cases is; but not the birth of JesusYeshuaIssa- which was just normal and natural, in my opinion.

You could differ with me, no problem.

Kindly access the following links regarding such births for more information if you like:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_virgin_births

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reports_of_unusual_religious_childbirths
• The miraculous birth of a person from folklore or mythology; see also List of virgin births
• Parthenogenesis, birth without fertilization

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Kindly also see the following post on another thread.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3138844#post3138844
It is given here also:

#82
Today, 1:42 am

jblake
Regular Member Join Date: October 7, 2007
Posts: 100

Re: Predictions of Muhammad (pbuh) in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria;
That it was a natural event?
Parthogenic reproduction.
Quote:
If this were a natural event, wouldn’t it happen frequently?
It is a fairly frequent occurrence in the animal kingdom.
Quote:
there must be a group of people whose women do not need the interference of men in order to conceive children in their wombs.
it is a female only phenomena.
Quote:
just point to that group. Where is it today?
a) For humans this is the result of a rare genetic combination. In those instances when the pregnancy goes to full term, and a child is delivered, the result usually is a girl.

b) For humans, an extremely rare genetic disorder, in combination with an equally rare genetic combination, will result in the parthogenic reproduction of a male infant.

xan

jonathon

Thanks

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Planten you wrote in another thread:

Quran tells us that God arranged her marriage i.e. God selected her husband. It is a long story. Husband is not named in the Quran but we know it from the bible that it was Joseph.

My question is : why was Jesus born without a biological father?

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The bible tells us that God is the father of Jesus. I take that to mean that He at least provided the sperm. That would make him the biological father.

Consider this, what if He also provided the egg. Wouldn’t that make Him Jesus mother also. Mary being just the vehicle by which Jesus becomes human.

In Christ Richard

 

[inJESUS]

I had written what I had written. I remain to that only.

am sorry but where did you write anything?

But I am not interested in the matter of biologicl or spiritual birth as the matter is not clear to me.

 

[inJESUS]

Paar, you can keep writing till tomorrow that it is natural. The Quran does not say so, sorry, so i’ll stick to Muslims’ answers, not Ahmadiyya. No disrespect.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

I think that is quite an exaggeration. There is no secular historic documented evidence or medical evidence in this connection with you.

Yes, there is. The four Gospels are historical evidence and each of them declare Jesus the Son of God and Mary His mother.

The birth was absolutely normal birth any physician would agree.

But we aren’t talking of His birth but His Conception.

Every child is born from a mother, likewise so many persons have born from virgins,

Details. Names, places, historical records. Name the people born of virgins other than Jesus Christ.

so the birth is natural.

No Jesus birth is Supernatural.

It is only conception to their mother

Their mother? Whom? No other such individuals ever existed.

which is not so natural or unusal,

Exactly! The Conception of Jesus Christ is not natural.

but in no case it has been medically documented, it is only between their mothers and GodAllahYHWH.

But it is documented historically for Jesus Christ and Mary.

We Muslim only believe because Quran has mentioned about Mary conceiving a child under Allah’s commandment, later named Jesus. So the conception in these cases is; but not the birth of JesusYeshuaIssa- which was just normal and natural, in my opinion.

Well, you’ve changed venue. Obviously we are referring to the fact that Jesus had no BIOLOGICAL father. That means He was CONCEIVED with no biological father.

You finally admit this is true. So, will you now take the next step and answer why this is so? Why did God perform this miracle?

The Christian Scriptures are clear, but the Quran is contradictory, calling Jesus an ordinary man yet admitting His Supernatural Incarnation and Birth.

You could differ with me, no problem.

I have no problem differing with you Paarsy. But I have no hard feelings. Although sometimes …arrrgh!!!

Kindly access the following links regarding such births for more information if you like:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_virgin_births

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reports_of_unusual_religious_childbirths
• The miraculous birth of a person from folklore or mythology; see also List of virgin births
• Parthenogenesis, birth without fertilizationThose are not actual cases. The only one with verifiable historical documentation is Jesus.

The others have all been labeled “religious” therefore, they don’t consider them “natural”. And in the context of the listing, the person meant to cast doubt on the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ. In other words, whomever wrote the list did not believe in any of them. However, since you believe in the Quran and I in the Scriptures, you and I believe in Jesus Virgin Birth.

So, why did God make this miracle?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[planten]

Yes, Why, Why, Why???

But let us settle with Happy New Year 2008 Today. That is the 2008 year of birth of Jesus (approx)… The immaculate birth of Jesus…

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes, Why, Why, Why???

But let us settle with Happy New Year 2008 Today. That is the 2008 year of birth of Jesus (approx)… The immaculate birth of Jesus…

Hi

I also say “Happy new year to everybody on the CAF”.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Quran/Islam/Muhammad maintain, in my opinion, that conception to Mary is though a rare phenomenon in human beings nevetheless it is there; so it is natural. Quran has a whole chapter # 19 devoted to Mary called Surah Maryam.

GodAllahYHWH has drawn a parallel, in my opinion, between the birth of John the Baptist or Yahya (a consin of Jesus) and the birth of Jesus or Issa, Quan has started the chapter Maryam, I think, I should better quote it here for better understanding of the members:
Conception of John the Baptist to His Mother

[19:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[19:2] Kaf Ha Ya 'Ain Sad.
[19:3] This is an account of the mercy of thy Lord shown to His servant Zachariah,
[19:4] When he called upon his Lord in a low voice.
[19:5] He said, 'My Lord, my bones have indeed become feeble and my head is all aflame with hoariness but never, my Lord, have I been unblessed in my prayer to Thee;
[19:6] 'And I fear my relations after me, and my** wife is barren**. So grant me from Thyself a successor,
[19:7] ‘To be my heir and the heir of the blessings of the House of Jacob. And make him, my Lord, well-pleasing to Thee.’
[19:8] God said, ‘O Zachariah, We give thee glad tidings of a son whose name shall be Yahya. We have not called any one before him by that name.’ **
[19:9] He said, 'My Lord, how shall I have a son when my wife is barren, and I have reached the extreme limit of old age?
[19:10] The angel bearing the revelation said, ‘So shall it be.’ But thy Lord says, ‘It is easy for ME, and indeed I created thee before, when thou wast nothing.’ **
[19:11] Zachariah said, ‘My Lord appoint for me a commandment.’ God said, ‘The commandment for thee is that thou shalt not speak to the people for three successive days and nights.’
[19:12] Then he came forth unto his people from the chamber and asked them in a low voice to glorify GOD morning and evening. **
[19:13] God said, ‘O Yahya, hold fast the Book.’ And We gave him wisdom while yet a child, [19:14] And tenderness of heart from US and purity, and he was pious,
[19:15] And dutiful towards his parents. And he was not haughty and rebellious.
[19:16] And peace was on him the day he was born, and the day he died, and peace will be on him the day he will be raised up to life again. **
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=19&verse=10

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Conception of Jesus or Issa to His Mother Mary

[19:17] And relate the story of Mary as mentioned in the Book, when she withdrew from her people to an eastern place;
[19:18] And screened herself off from them. Then We sent Our angel to her and he appeared to her in the form of a well proportioned man.[19:19] She said, ‘I seek refuge with the Gracious God from thee if indeed thou dost fear Him.’
[19:20] The angel said, ‘I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that **I may give thee glad tidings of a righteous son.’ **[19:21] She said, 'How can I have a son when no man has touched me, neither have I been unchaste?’
[19:22] The angel said, ‘Thus it shall be.’ **But says thy Lord, ‘It is easy for ME; and We shall do so that We may make him a Sign unto men, and a mercy from US, and it is a thing decreed.’
[19:23] So she conceived him, and withdrew with him to a remote place. **[19:24] And the pains of child-birth drove her unto the trunk of a palm-tree. She said, 'O, would that I had died before this and had become a thing quite forgotten!
[19:25] Then the angel called her from beneath her, saying, 'Grieve not. Thy Lord has placed a rivulet below thee;
[19:26] 'And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree; it will drop upon thee fresh ripe dates;
[19:27] 'So, eat and drink and cool thine eye. And if thou seest any man, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to the Gracious God; I will, therefore, not speak this day to any human being.’
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=19&verse=20

I would request my Christians friends here, to just point out what common points they see in the conception of John to his mother and conception of Jesus to Mary in the above quoted verses of Quran. I think this detail, to my knowledge, is not available in NTBible though it came alomost 600 years before Quran.

Thanks

 

[inJESUS]

I would request my Christians friends here, to just point out what common points they see in the conception of John to his mother and conception of Jesus to Mary in the above quoted verses of Quran. I think this detail, to my knowledge, is not available in NTBible though it came alomost 600 years before Quran.

John was born without biological father? no.
John, in his mother’s womb, bowed to Jesus, in Mary’s womb.

and Happy New Year to all !

 

[dolphinlove]

Hi

Quran/Islam/Muhammad maintain, in my opinion, that conception to Mary is though a rare phenomenon in human beings nevetheless it is there; so it is natural. Quran has a whole chapter # 19 devoted to Mary called Surah Maryam.

So really, you cant give us the reason why Jesus was born miraculously?

I would request my Christians friends here, to just point out what common points they see in the conception of John to his mother and conception of Jesus to Mary in the above quoted verses of Quran. I think this detail, to my knowledge, is not available in NTBible though it came alomost 600 years before Quran.

There is no similarity there at all. The only similarity is a child was born, but how and why this happened are 2 entirely different reasons.
Also, your asking us to believe what is written in the Quran? Sorry, Paars, but we dont, we have been over this with you before.