To Protestants: HAPPY REFORMATION DAY

[Richard_Abanes]

Jon: For the record, the bolded part was not my quote, even though the way Richard referenced it, it might appear so. I’m sure it wasn’t intended.

RA: Totally unintended. That is you quoting me. I highlighted it from your post, to show you where in the very thing you quoted from me, i sought to indicate the relevance to the issue. :hypno:

RA

 

[JonNC]

Thank you sir.

I thought that the, “Why do the Reformers hate Jesus,” was pretty innocuous and a good way to get the thread back on topic from a Catholic point of view. I found it more commical than offensive, and, considering I had only 512 characters permited to me from using my phone, I thought I summed up the post rather nicely.

Then Richard, who had said some pretty offensive things about the Catholic Church, said that he thought, IN HIS **HUMBLE **OPINION, I should apologize.

I let that slide.

Then he got more assertive and asked me if I was going to apologize for that.

That fed my ego.

Then, he asked me one more time, for the second time not humbling himself to his opinion, if I would apologize.

I thought I could let it go, as it was pretty much dead, but, something inside me was tempting me to ask. I admit, it may have been phrased better, but, JonNC, it is a very legitimate question: Why did the Reformers hate Jesus? While I cannot say I am a fan of Martin Luther, nor am I sympathetic towards him (mostly because I haven’t fully read anything about him or his time period, so, basically, I am ignorant of him and only know second hand things about him), he at the very least wanted to clean up the Catholic Church and kept two of the Sacraments (or at least, thought he did…being a Catholic, you know I cannot acknowledge them as legitimate). He was a very scrupulous man (I have been told he spent up to 6 hours in confession) and that is a shame that he didn’t believe in God’s grace, so, he did what his mind made logical sense to him…he said that the Catholic Church didn’t believe in Grace, and it is by Grace alone that we are saved. (Do I have this correct…that he denied the Catholic Church believed in Grace?)

This was so horrible. BUT, I acknowledge that it wasn’t all his fault. He was persuaded by secular peoples, AFTER he died, what he had started took on a new life of it’s own (as now that he was dead, people needed to start asking his followers what to do…and that’s kinda when things got hazy), and anybody who spends up to 6 hours in Confession may have other issues. That and I’m not fond of him taking a nun away from her vocation.

Anyway, despite all this, I would like to say, that I really enjoy you and TriuneUnity (wherever he may be) because you have shown me what Luther intended in his religion. You don’t believe the Catholic Church has it right, but, you do not come on here and assult us and assure us of what we believe. You also point out that sola scriptura means that everything needed for faith is in the Bible, not that the Bible is all you need. You acknowledge Tradition is important, BUT, not needed. ‘Yes Mary MIGHT be in Heaven body and soul, but, this doesn’t matter for my salvation.’

Since Martin Luther is credited with beginning the Reformation, he has the honour of having the longest section of this post.

After Martin Luther was successful, a many offenses to the Church came after him. Some Retard King in England started a sect where the only requirement was divorce on demand (and who knew that that church would later have problems?), Calvin gave birth to Congregationalism as he was predestined, Zwingli, I’m not even sure what he did, but, I know it can’t be good, and the Presbyterians, though I am impressed they get a shot - out in the Marvel Comicbook Universe, decided to kill Mary Queen of Scots, so, that was bad (and yes, I am aware of Guy Fawkes…just not as cool).

Anyway, I noticed that insulting the Reformers was REALLY getting to Richard. Was it Catholicly Jesus-like of me to persue this? No. Was I wrong in how I explained myself? No. I suppose I could have taken the high road and let it go, as Jesus was not proud but let Himself be insulted, but, there was just something about it that would not let me let it go…it was ego that would not let it go.

I used the same arguments that Protestants have made (we’re insulting X, not you…, if you could only see the truth…, these people are dead…) to show some how what they say IS offensive. I still don’t know why Hynauljasag and Richard took these things so personally, though. These men ARE dead, they don’t care, and if they cared about Jesus, they wouldn’t have gone with their own egos and bashed the Catholic Church…and they did bash the Catholic Church. I’m not saying anything against today’s modern day Protestants, but, just the Reformers. I thought this appropriate considering the thread.

I must confess, I do find it an upside down set of priorities where Protestants assert, “Mary’s dead. Lalalalala Mary’s a sinner. Lalalala. Mary is burried in the dirt. Lalalala. Mary was a vessel and not a mother. Lalalala,” clinging to their own pre-dissposed set of beliefs even after we show them Verses in the Bible and Traditions that counter this, but, I make one little statement, ‘The Reformers hated Jesus because of their actions,’ and, despite these people saying they do not follow the Reformers, and they don’t care what the Reformers say/said, and these men (and women) are dead and cannot hear us, THEY feel the need to get offended and defend their heroes.

Thanks,ads, for your explanation. I think we can all learn from your thoughts that if someone insults an individual one holds in high regard, we tend to take it personally. Christians on both sides best serve our Lord by keeping a charitable heart towards each other, and with things the way they are going in the world, we may need each other more than we know or would like to admit.

On the reformation: I prefer to consider it a commemoration as opposed to a celebration. The separation of Christians is a sign and result of sin, on both sides, and not a cause of celebration.
And to blame Luther and Leo some 500 years later sells our own complicity short.

Jon

 

[Richard_Abanes]

tGette: I understand that from your perspective you are celebrating “returning to the true Gospel message”, but I find this ironic because the Reformation has spawned a virtually boundless number of “true Gospel messages”.

**RA: **All Roman Catholics do not adhere to official Roman Catholic teaching either. So, although the official, teachings might be a unified body of belief, how that plays out is just about as diverse as what you might see in Protestantism. also, there is this notion that diversity in certain areas of scripture (e.g., what divides Southern Baptists from Lutherans) does not mean utter dis-unity.

Perhaps this is why I don’t see celebrating Reformation Day as celebrating division per se or a bad thing, but rather celebrating freedom of thought, freedom of spirit, and a call to reformation – not division or disunity. I actually still see myself united with all of you RCs in a common faith in Jesus Christ, our Blessed Lord and Savior. I do not see myself united, however, with Mormons, for example.

tGette: So. . .again. . .how is the Reformation a cause for celebration? Are you telling us that you are happy that Christianity is so splintered?

RA: You and I view the nature/definition of “the Church” differently. That is a foundational difference in our views that effects this issue. The complexity of such issues, as I have said before, can doubtfully be resolved over the imperfectness of a message board and its limitations.

tGette: In response to what you said about being a writer/journalist. Does this then make you the “Pope” in a sense. Are you telling us that you have infallibly figured out everything the Bible is telling us?

RA: I’ve seen this kind of mild jab again and again. It’s odd – almost like if anyone seeks to offer a varying opinion, the instant accusation is trying to place one in a pope-like position. It’s an odd response, imho. This question, I believe has been answered in this thread, I believe (or perhaps another, tehre are so many I get lost).

**tGette: **“The Pope is a professional religion journalist recognized in the area of religious research.”

RA: Awesome – “professional religion journalist recognized in the area of religious research” disagree all thetime. I have no problem with that.

tGette: … but if he is a Chevrolet mechanic that does not necessarily make him qualified to work on Ford vehicles because…

RA: True. I’ve worked on Ford’s and Chevys. However, if I you were to ask me about something like Hondas (by analogy, an Amazonian tribal religion), I would not know what I was doing.

Po18: So, you finally got what you came for? This does not sound like fellowship, it sounds suspiciously like you came here for ammunition.

RA: I am a little amazed at the level of distrust, animosity, and suspicion. I have posted several times now EXACTLY why I came. And you will notice in my many other posts an even hand with the RCC, at some points defending it, at other points disagreeing, and at one point recommending a Mormon to return to Rome. I also thanked a RC for lighting a candle for me. During the course of my interaction, ADStrinity stated something that is significant in the area of RC/Prot dialogue. If something like that presents itself, I will use it. That is a far cry from coming here “FOR” such a quote.

I mention such things because it seems that such points of comment and behavior get lost in favor of fixation on a criticism here, or a disagreement there. Such a narrow scope of reading helps no one see how anyone else might feel differently or take a more balanced view than the extremes that so often get press. It takes work for all of us.

June: I was taught as a child a variety of Baptist though including even my father could not work in a business that served wine, and that the Baptist minster’s wife (who was also my mother) could not wear RED or even SLEEVELESS dresses.

**RA: **Yes. And that is shows the Protestant-side of examples where the Bible has been taken and misused/abused.

**June: **If protestantism is the way and God’s only True church, then there would be ONE Protestant Church, it would be united and it would be apostolic.

**RA: **Who in the world said anything like that??? Goodness. Talk about misrepresenting…

RA

 

[Peter_J]

RA: I am a little amazed at the level of distrust, animosity, and suspicion.

You get used to it after a while.

 

[Ag_not]

…I also thanked a RC for lighting a candle for me. …
RA

Typical mealy mouthed journalist :takethat:

Typical of a journalist never to let **a fact **get in the way of a good story :nunchuk:

How **DARE **you call me **a Roman Catholic **:manvspc: :manvspc: :manvspc:

I’m a WANNABEE ROMAN CATHOLIC

I’m glad I only lit a little candle now for you and not the bigger more expensive ones

 

[guanophore]

I also question, why does Richard have to tell us everything he does (he doesn’t hate Catholics, he’s defended them at times, he’s an ex-Catholic, he’s a religion journalist, he was from Chicago)? I don’t care. I don’t need to know all that, I just see what he posts and how he insults the Catholic Church, and how he starts trouble (for which I suspect he is gleeful…but, perhaps not) by initiating this thread, when he knows that it’s not at all a happy day, the only people he will get who agree with him are those who are stubornly anti-Catholic, and more than likely, he gets to set himself up as a martyr.

But, that’s where I was coming from with this. I noticed that it upset Richard, and though Richard is Richard and not a member of a church with a particular set of beliefs, I had to push this because I wanted to see where it would go.

I really am surprised for somebody who is distorting the Catholic Church (posting about how the Church limits sex in another thread), he gets so upset about something as trivial as this.

WHY does this bother him so?

Thank you for asking me about this, Jon, and I look forward to your corrections about my misconceptions (or at least further education if I continue to hold on to my beliefs) about Luther.

Well, he is new to the threads, and he clearly does not understand the purpose and mission of CAF. It seems that he thought that the non-catholic section was less Catholic than the rest?

He also seems to erroneously believe that this is a fellowship venue, when it is clearly an apologetic venue.

I believe, in his ignorance and arrogance, he really thought the OP would be warmly received.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

AG: How DARE you call me a Roman Catholic

RA: I’d rather see you become a Roman Catholic and serve Jesus Christ than to see you languishing outside of Christ for all eternity. What i care MOST about is you being a Christian!!!

And now, here is a bit more information, my dear RC friends. I was saved while still INSIDE the RC Church.

For nearly two years after accepting Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, I continued attending Mass faithfully. I sang my heart out to God (while everyone around me was silent and looked at me like I was insane). I responded to the priest loud and clear during Mass (while everyone around me was silent and looked at me like I was insane). And I asked questions (while everyone around me was silent and looked at me like I was insane).

I also visited the church late at night when it was empty, and there I sat at the foot of the crucifix to speak to Jesus – telling him how much I loved him, how thankful I was that he had died for me, and how wanted to serve him all the days of my life.

I looked for Christ in the “true” church, in the people, in the priests, in the nuns, and in the do’s and donts I was told I had to follow. He wasn’t in any of those things – for me.

But I found that he was in my heart. And that he was in the Bible. And that he was in my dreams (yes, God has and does speak to me in dreams - but not often).

I found that we actually had a relationship – and there was no church between us. No institution.

When I started attending Bible studies by evangelicals, they seemed to know him, and love him, and want to serve him, too – just like me. And their teachings, based on scripture, seemed to me to be more in harmony with: 1) context, 2) language, 3) history, and 4) reason.

My 2 cents.

R.A.

 

[po18guy]

RA: I am a little amazed at the level of distrust, animosity, and suspicion. I have posted several times now EXACTLY why I came. And you will notice in my many other posts an even hand with the RCC, at some points defending it, at other points disagreeing, and at one point recommending a Mormon to return to Rome. I also thanked a RC for lighting a candle for me. During the course of my interaction, ADStrinity stated something that is significant in the area of RC/Prot dialogue. If something like that presents itself, I will use it. That is a far cry from coming here “FOR” such a quote.

Understood. And, thank you for your clarification. However, as to Catholic attitudes, let’s suppose that you get hit with a brick each time you open your front door. How long before you develop a conditioned response? Pavlov, you know. I do not visit Protestant sites. I remain right here and have seen multitudes of attacks on Catholicism, ranging from the almost imperceptible to the blunt. After a while, one becomes shell-shocked. Protestants do not come here because they agree with us. It is always an assist if they ask questions rather than declare or accuse. If I were visiting a Protestant site, I would rather learn from questioning than polemicize. That’s all.

Out of 1.1 billion, can you find a psychopathic murderer in the Catholic Church? Yes! But, even he does not define the Church or her teachings.

Christ’s peace and vote life.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

**Guan: **Well, he is new to the threads, and he clearly does not understand the purpose and mission of CAF. It seems that he thought that the non-catholic section was less Catholic than the rest? He also seems to erroneously believe that this is a fellowship venue, when it is clearly an apologetic venue.

RA: Well, if that is the case, then I’ll graciously leave. And I apologize.

You see, I enjoy making new friends, talking, sharing ideas, and yes, even debating and getting into some good discussions dealing with faith, beliefs, reasons why people believe things. It’s been a long time since I’ve interacted with Roman Catholics, so I thought, “Hmm, that’d be interesting.” (I have no Roman Catholic friends.) I can’t really interact with Roman Catholics because in my circles I have no access to them.

So I thought CAF looked like a good place to start, especially because I saw some Mormon issues being addressed online here and thought I might could help RCs in that area given my studies.

I guess for me, it just gets tiresome to always talk to people who believe *exactly *the way I believe. I mean, there’s not much place for growth there. Not much room for challenge of my ideas. Little opportunity to see insights from other perspectives, even though I might disagree.

So, since I kind of wanted to hang out with Roman Catholics anyway, and because a long-distance colleague of mine recently converted, I decided to come here and dive in. I made a mistake apparently. Very sorry. and I bid you all adieu and peace.

One in Christ,

R.A.

 

[Peter_J]

When I started attending Bible studies by evangelicals, they seemed to know him, and love him, and want to serve him, too – just like me. And their teachings, based on scripture, seemed to me to be more in harmony with: 1) context, 2) language, 3) history, and 4) reason.

Glad to see that you include history in that list. I get the impression that a lot of Protestants ignore history.

 

[cfrancis]

Originally Posted by Richard Abanes
cfrancis: How consistent are you with your position highlighted above?

Bump for you, Richard, in case you missed my reply!

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

Thank you sir.

I thought that the, “Why do the Reformers hate Jesus,” was pretty innocuous and a good way to get the thread back on topic from a Catholic point of view. I found it more commical than offensive, and, considering I had only 512 characters permited to me from using my phone, I thought I summed up the post rather nicely.

I used the same arguments that Protestants have made (we’re insulting X, not you…, if you could only see the truth…, these people are dead…) to show some how what they say IS offensive. I still don’t know why Hynauljasag and Richard took these things so personally, though. These men ARE dead, they don’t care, and if they cared about Jesus, they wouldn’t have gone with their own egos and bashed the Catholic Church…and they did bash the Catholic Church. I’m not saying anything against today’s modern day Protestants, but, just the Reformers. I thought this appropriate considering the thread.

I must confess, I do find it an upside down set of priorities where Protestants assert, “Mary’s dead. Lalalalala Mary’s a sinner. Lalalala. Mary is burried in the dirt. Lalalala. Mary was a vessel and not a mother. Lalalala,” clinging to their own pre-dissposed set of beliefs even after we show them Verses in the Bible and Traditions that counter this, but, I make one little statement, ‘The Reformers hated Jesus because of their actions,’ and, despite these people saying they do not follow the Reformers, and they don’t care what the Reformers say/said, and these men (and women) are dead and cannot hear us, THEY feel the need to get offended and defend their heroes.

Maybe it’s because both Richard and I are truly Protestants. We were both baptized and raised Catholic and now are not. I can only pray to end up with his level of education and wisdom. Oddly enough, we’re both new members around here as well.

Maybe we’re both already sick of the double standard and the assertion that “you hate Jesus” or “you hate Mary” or “you’re led by demon spirits”. It’s absurd to damn the Reformers and the modern Protestants while at the same time bemoaning a lack of unity and fellowship across denominational lines. It’s no different than every election year…we see thousands of hours of ads from both sides calling the other traitors and throwing all sorts of slander about, then bemoaning the lack of bipartisanship after the election is over.

Take the plank out of your own eye before pointing out the speck in your brother’s. But that’s just my heretical Protestantism speaking up again…right?

 

[po18guy]

Maybe it’s because both Richard and I are truly Protestants. We were both baptized and raised Catholic and now are not. I can only pray to end up with his level of education and wisdom. Oddly enough, we’re both new members around here as well.

Maybe we’re both already sick of the double standard and the assertion that “you hate Jesus” or “you hate Mary” or “you’re led by demon spirits”. It’s absurd to damn the Reformers and the modern Protestants while at the same time bemoaning a lack of unity and fellowship across denominational lines. It’s no different than every election year…we see thousands of hours of ads from both sides calling the other traitors and throwing all sorts of slander about, then bemoaning the lack of bipartisanship after the election is over.

Take the plank out of your own eye before pointing out the speck in your brother’s. But that’s just my heretical Protestantism speaking up again…right?

If both of you were Catholic, you still are - just fallen away. I would venture to say that you never believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. If you had, I do not believe you could leave Him. I cannot. I denied myself when I joined the CC. I had differences with her teaching. Thank the Lord, the Holy Spirit has erased each of them and I am home.

Two pertinent questions:

1. Does the Holy Spirit unite?
2. Does the demon divide?

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

If both of you were Catholic, you still are - just fallen away. I would venture to say that you never believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. If you had, I do not believe you could leave Him. I cannot. I denied myself when I joined the CC. I had differences with her teaching. Thank the Lord, the Holy Spirit has erased each of them and I am home.

Here’s my problem with the teaching of transubstantiation. In healing services, the very presence of the Lord comes down usually through prayer or adoration. In Acts, people sitting in Peter’s shadow were healed. Later in Acts, cloth that had touched Paul was sent all over the place to transfer physical healing. If transubstantiation were real, why don’t we see the mentally deficient become coherent, the physically crippled rising to walk, the blind able to see, or the deaf able to hear? Is the Spirit able to come through sinful man outside of the Catholic Church to see these things done, but not inside the Catholic Church and with something that is supposed to have been sanctified by a priest (acting as a vessel of the Lord) and untainted before touching those in Mass?

Two pertinent questions:

1. Does the Holy Spirit unite?
2. Does the demon divide?

Unite according to whose standards? What we see as unification (according to 90% of this board, by everyone becoming Catholic, and the other 10% a variety of answers) may not be what actual unification looks like. By the same token, what we see as division may not be actual division.

We’re all sinners with limited knowledge of what we know and see. We have a tendency to overcomplicate things in order to show off wisdom and a tendency to oversimplify things in order to reinforce a point. This is why most college professors are hideously boring and most political ads are garbage.

My own personal belief is that all men are meant to kneel in the presence of Jesus Christ. If it takes 1 non-Catholic to see that happen in an area where 1,000 Catholics have failed, is this “division” negative? If a Protestant like Billy Graham is able to reach millions (if not billions) through his crusades, is the fact that he’s “divided” or “separated” relevant?

 

[po18guy]

Here’s my problem with the teaching of transubstantiation. In healing services, the very presence of the Lord comes down usually through prayer or adoration. In Acts, people sitting in Peter’s shadow were healed. Later in Acts, cloth that had touched Paul was sent all over the place to transfer physical healing. If transubstantiation were real, why don’t we see the mentally deficient become coherent, the physically crippled rising to walk, the blind able to see, or the deaf able to hear? Is the Spirit able to come through sinful man outside of the Catholic Church to see these things done, but not inside the Catholic Church and with something that is supposed to have been sanctified by a priest (acting as a vessel of the Lord) and untainted before touching those in Mass?

The Lord’s will is still done. I have seen minor miracles of healing before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. I can give testimony to that. It boils down to faith, right? Believer’s were healed by Peter’s shadow and Paul’s cloth. This shows that physical matter can be used by the Lord for His purposes. Thus it is with the Eucharist - but even more so. Christ said that the bread and wine became His Body and Blood, and so we continue to believe this. Christ is not an abstraction, or a painting on a wall. He dwells among us and in us. We go to spend time with him in prayer and adoration.

We are not guaranteed healing through the use of anything - even fervent prayer, if it is not the Lord’s will. Remember that even the Apostles could not drive out the one demon? Jesus told them that it took prayer to do that. Healings still happen, but we pray the Lord’s will be done. We are supposed to hate this life and prefer the next, right? We follow Paul’s thinking here.

Consider that all of the Apostles, all of the early church fathers, and all of their successors up to Luther, continuously and consistently believed in the real presence of Christ. It fleshes out His promise to be with us until the end of the age. Christ is both a physical and spiritual presence. What has been lost in those today who do not believe?

Unite according to whose standards? What we see as unification (according to 90% of this board, by everyone becoming Catholic, and the other 10% a variety of answers) may not be what actual unification looks like. By the same token, what we see as division may not be actual division.

By Christ’s own standard of unity. It is the hard way to go and His sayings are difficult (see John 6) and so we persevere in fear and trembling. The tragedy is that His Body was split in the first place.

My own personal belief is that all men are meant to kneel in the presence of Jesus Christ. If it takes 1 non-Catholic to see that happen in an area where 1,000 Catholics have failed, is this “division” negative?

Any division is against the prayer of Christ. I either prostrate myself of kneel in His presence, believing that it is Him as if He were standing there. sometimes, I cannot bring myself to look at Him, out of my guilt.

If a Protestant like Billy Graham is able to reach millions (if not billions) through his crusades, is the fact that he’s “divided” or “separated” relevant?

As much as ever! Muslim preachers also reach millions, as do Buddhists. But they do not unite, either.

We are not to form thousands of unrelated, disagreeing churches if we truly follow Christ. I denied myself to become Catholic, as I disagreed with several teachings. However, the Holy Spirit has answered and erased those doubts.

Believing that Christ is present in the Flesh, I cannot conceive of any other Church without danger of becoming either agnostic or outright atheist. Do all, or even many Catholics measure up to the high standard that Christ sets for us? NO! Our lives, and our conversions are a process, and we are all in differing stages of that process. 20 years ago, I was a poor Catholic, but the Lord’s mercy has sustained me and His graces are upon me.

Currently, He has blessed me with stage four lymphatic cancer. It is yet another story of how this came to be a blessing.

Christ’s peace.

 

[benedictus2]

From Phoenix Preacher Blog…

Today we celebrate the birth of the Protestant Reformation, the day Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door of the Wittenburg church. Luthers objective was not to split the church or start a new movement, but to reform that which was already in place.

We seek to walk in that well worn path with a heart for reforming and rebuilding, not just dividing and tearing down. Remember our heritage today…it should be a special day for all of us in Protestant and Lutheran traditions.
:extrahappy: :dancing: :extrahappy:

Beats me how Christians can rejoice at the anniversary of the dismembering of the Body of Christ.

What is so great about the anniversary of protestatnt deformation?

As Saint Augustine wrote hundreds of years before Luther, yes, the Body of Christ may be bleeding and covered with sores, but that is no reason to hack it to pieces.

Many tried before him, but only Luther with the help of Calvin succeeded.

I think Luther, wherever he is right now is not rejoicing with you. Far from it. I think he is lamenting what he has done.

True, he had good intentions but the problem was pride got in the way which made it very easy for the devil to manipulate him.

It is a pity St Ignatius has not written his Spiritual Exercises then, (6 years too late). Maybe Martin Luther would have learned a little about the discerment of the spirits.

As they say, pride goes before the fall. And looked at the splintered mess it has left.

And 490 years later, the chopping continues.

 

[benedictus2]

Two pertinent questions:

1. Does the Holy Spirit unite?
2. Does the demon divide?

I don’t think that could have been put more succinctly.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Here’s my problem with the teaching of transubstantiation. In healing services, the very presence of the Lord comes down usually through prayer or adoration. In Acts, people sitting in Peter’s shadow were healed. Later in Acts, cloth that had touched Paul was sent all over the place to transfer physical healing. If transubstantiation were real, why don’t we see the mentally deficient become coherent, the physically crippled rising to walk, the blind able to see, or the deaf able to hear? Is the Spirit able to come through sinful man outside of the Catholic Church to see these things done, but not inside the Catholic Church and with something that is supposed to have been sanctified by a priest (acting as a vessel of the Lord) and untainted before touching those in Mass?

Which is better, to have a withered hand straightened or a wounded heart healed?

Unite according to whose standards?

Jesus Christ prayed that we would be one as He and the Father are one. I’m fairly certain that Jesus and the Father don’t quibble over doctrine. Paul exhorts us in his epistles on a number of occasions not to be divided, but to be of the same mind.

What we see as unification (according to 90% of this board, by everyone becoming Catholic, and the other 10% a variety of answers) may not be what actual unification looks like. By the same token, what we see as division may not be actual division.

For 1500 years, everyone who was Christian was a Catholic.

We’re all sinners with limited knowledge of what we know and see. We have a tendency to overcomplicate things in order to show off wisdom and a tendency to oversimplify things in order to reinforce a point. This is why most college professors are hideously boring and most political ads are garbage.

My own personal belief is that all men are meant to kneel in the presence of Jesus Christ. If it takes 1 non-Catholic to see that happen in an area where 1,000 Catholics have failed, is this “division” negative? If a Protestant like Billy Graham is able to reach millions (if not billions) through his crusades, is the fact that he’s “divided” or “separated” relevant?

Not one of us, even Billy Graham, is able to reach anyone at all. That’s the Holy Spirit’s job.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

RA. Second, you must remember I am NOT RC. I am an evangelical who sees her as blessed above all women, as scripture says. But I also accept what she herself stated in her beautiful magnificant – i.e., that she, like all of us was in need of a SAVIOR: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”
(Luke 1:46-47).

**Gabriel of 12; your above quote is 20th century interpretation of Mary in need of a savior. God said he will put enmity between the serpent and the Woman (Mary) and her seed (perpetual virgin) will bruise his heel (crucifixion) when he delivers the deadly blow to the serpents head. Gen.3:15. In other words God will not have this Woman (Mary) infected with sin, God will save her, before she is born, from her immaculate conception, how else is Emmanuel to appear, only through a clean and pure vessel untainted and without sin.

Your reformers and 2000 years of Christian teaching along with God’s prophecy conflicts with your 20th century interpretation of Mary in need of a savior, for one She was saved already in her immaculate conception. So yes Mary is saved,by Jesus and full of Grace. Same as your baptism which saves you now.**

RA;
You need a savior when you are a sinner. And Mary, was a sinner, like all of us. That is my view from scripture.** And I say this as an ex-Catholic, so i know the difference.**

**Gabriel of 12;
Here is your oppurtunity to clarify your above statement about Mary? You spoke as an x catholic but your view conflicts with catholicism. So can you explain for clarification, what it is that you are speaking of as an x catholic? and what is the difference your wish for us to see from your confusing comment?

Secondly can you prove where Mary sinned in her life time? Can you prove Mary sinned like all of us, according to your view from scripture? The scripture you provide does not indicate she sinned?**

RA:
Mary was never given a special place of honor in scripture, even by Jesus. And the Bible makes it fairly clear that Jesus had half-brothers and sisters (and for the record, there is NOTHING ultra-uber-special-holy about not having sex). Moreover, obviously, there is not even a HINT of Mary’s bodily assumption.

Gabriel of 12
Scripture conflicts with your views and opinions of Mary not being honored. To mention one of many here is the might of God speaking (Gabriel) who stands before God; gives her the most Royalty greetings ever given to a person from scripture(Hail Mary, Full of Grace) talk about honoring, Gabriel just Hailed Mary as his Queen. Your half brother theory of Jesus having brothers and sisters is totally off base, and again comes from a 20th century interpretation of scripture. These heresies have already been exposed and settled, yet you to still cling to this heretical view, why?

RA;
Third, I am going to assume with Mary what I assume with anyone else – unless told otherwise by God. And God hasn’t said anything about Mary being ascended. So, there you go.

**Gabriel of 12
First of all RA, here you go again putting false words in Caatholic Marion belief, She did not “ascend” as you falsely claim Catholics to believe, Mary was “assumed body and soul” can you get this teaching correct please so as not to confuse your community? I can’t believe you, an x catholic does not know the difference between “ascend” and “assumed”. I think you have just proven my point clearly, about your misinformed Catholic teachings, about Mary. That is why I ask humbly, do not make public statements about Cathoilc doctrine unless you are speaking the truth about Catholic teaching. Dont add you 2 cents to Catholic teaching, only after you have correctly defined what Catholics truly believe, OK:thumbsup:

You believe in Sola Scriptura? If yes? then you believe that the scriptures is God’s Word? Well God states in “Sola Scriptura” from the book of Revelation 12:1, that Mary is not only assumed, body and soul, but crowned in heaven. You cant get much more honored by God himself.

Mr. RA, please dont be so quick to interprete scripture from a 20th century mentality. I think you would be wise to learn from your Catholic root interpretation first, before attacking the body of Jesus Christ.

Peace be with you**

 

[adstrinity]

Currently, He has blessed me with stage four lymphatic cancer. It is yet another story of how this came to be a blessing.

Christ’s peace.

Congratulations. May this help you and others with purgation of the effects of sin. Blessed be God and may His Spirit always be with you; you are truly favoured.

or “you’re led by demon spirits”. It’s absurd to damn the Reformers and the modern Protestants

Where has anybody said you are led by demon spirits?

I want to make it clear, I was not damning the modern Protestants . . . or the Reformers for that matter. I do not hold that ability.