To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

[Eden]

Singinbeauty:

Because this is a completely different thought process than what the OP is I think another thread should be started… But for now I think, since there are no protestants stating why they aren’t catholic, I will now step away from this thread…

Thanks Singinbeauty. I’ve moved over to the new thread you started in Apologetics regarding “emnity”.

 

[Eden]

believers:

Eden, I have the New King James Version. At times I refer to the Blue Letter bible and a desktop pc program of the bible. I like to see how other versions read.

So, your Bible does not have the same Canon as that set at the Council of Carthage?

 

[St.Eric]

Singinbeauty:

Mary is BLESSED. Of course. I think that I would feel immensely blessed if God chose me out of every woman on earth to bare His Son, Savior of the World. Who denies that she was blessed? She got to care and talk to Jesus as He was growing. She got to see God in action as a child and as a man. She got to know God on a personal level that no one else can. But she also said that she needed a savior.

She absolutely needed a savior, no one denies that. The church does not deny that. She was saved from sin by God, not herself. The Chruch has never taught otherwise.

AS for the Mother of God issue. She absolutley is. Why would Elizabeth say “who am I that the mother of my Lord visits me.” This sentence in itself places Mary on a very high pedastal, if you will. It also shows us that she is the Mother of God. Unless, you don’t beleive Jesus is Lord. Why would St. John “leap” in the womb at her presence? Of course God does not NEED a mother. He is God. God CHOSE the have a mother. God CHOSE to present himself as a man. He did not NEED any of this. He could have simply come down from Heaven and said to everyone, “Listen up! I am God and here is how it is gonna be from this point on…”

 

[St.Eric]

“Did you notice Jesus’ emphasis on ministry in His lifetime?”
Jesus disencouraged lifting up Mary in His lifetime. He explained everything CLEARLY to His disciples before He left them. In the teachings of the aspotles, they did NOT teach about Mary, but rather about the Gospel of Jesus.
THAT’S the tradition I follow.
When the Dead Sea Scrolls was found, they was dated 1st century and Biblical scholars compared them to the Bibles that are on our shelves today. Not much change.
ORALLY, the Catholic Church gave Mary a new “title”.

Please don’t tell me that the Catholic Church is unable to make a mistake or err in its ways. Only Jesus was perfect.

You are right! Jesus was/is perfect and knew we are imperfect. That is why he gave us the Holy Spirit to guide His Church so “the gates of Hell will never prevail against it.” I find it funny how Jesus submitted to Mary and did turn the water to wine at the wedding in Cana. Wow, she prompted his first public miracle. I find it funny that as he died ont he cross, he gave his Mother to St. John and said, “Woman, behold your son, Son, behold your mother.” Now, if Christ really had brothers, why didn’t he give Mary to them? And, why wern’t his siblings at the foot of the cross? Pretty significant event. I think the whole family would most likely be in attendance. Why St. John? Two reasons, one is that Christ had no brothers or sisters, and two, he gave his own Mother to all believers as a mother. St. John was “the beloved” disciple. He gives his mother to those he loves. Remember too that Christ follows God’s law perfectly. Is not one of the 10 commandments to “honor thy mother and father?” Yes, I recall it is. Since he was/is perfect, he would have and still does, give her perfect honor. As humans I would suggest that in our fallen state, even our best attempts at perfectly honoring a person, like your mother or father fall short. So, if Jesus perfectly honored his mother, don’t you maybe, just maybe, think that to perfectly honor someone, may appear to our imperfect eyes to be worship? I bet it would. I bet the most pious acts of honor that we see today would pale incomparison to perfect honor. We might even mistake it for worship.

 

[kujo313]

If all this was true, and that we’d have to go through Mary to get to Jesus, then that “tradition” would’ve been carefully (and repeatedly) pointed out by Jesus and His disciples. Yet, we don’t see it.
We only hear about Jesus being the “one Mediator” between God and man.
So, I guess, you can go to Mary for whatever. But, because of Jesus I can go directly to God, through only Jesus, in the Holy Spirit.

As honorable as she “seems” in “scripture”, it is not pointed out by Jesus and carried out by His disciples.
It either points out one of two things:

1. As important as it is, nobody had a clue until hundreds of years later.
   Something of that importance would’ve been pointed out.
2. It wasn’t necessary to go through her.
   We see in the latter part of the Gospels, in Acts and the letters that nobody goes through Mary.

 

[Huguenot]

Eden:

BTW= By the way

Thanks a lot !

 

[Huguenot]

kujo313:

If all this was true, and that we’d have to go through Mary to get to Jesus, then that “tradition” would’ve been carefully (and repeatedly) pointed out by Jesus and His disciples. Yet, we don’t see it.
We only hear about Jesus being the “one Mediator” between God and man.
So, I guess, you can go to Mary for whatever. But, because of Jesus I can go directly to God, through only Jesus, in the Holy Spirit.

As honorable as she “seems” in “scripture”, it is not pointed out by Jesus and carried out by His disciples.
It either points out one of two things:

1. As important as it is, nobody had a clue until hundreds of years later.
   Something of that importance would’ve been pointed out.
2. It wasn’t necessary to go through her.
   We see in the latter part of the Gospels, in Acts and the letters that nobody goes through Mary.

I totally agree with you …

 

[Huguenot]

St.Eric:

There is no need to define a practice that is universally accepted as truth. Only when suffcient numbers of dissenters arrive is it necessary to define. For 451 years, everyone took for granted that Mary was the Mother of God.

The definintion of Worship above is correct in the archaic sense. Kings and Queens were often called “your Worshhip.” In the old sense of the word- nothing wrong with worshipping, i.e., venerating MAry and the Saints.

In the modern vernacular, worshipping is not used in that sense. In the modern sense, only God is worthy of worship and MAry and the Saints are worthy of our devotion and veneration. Nothing wrong with that!

Anyway, those “traditions” were traditions that existed BEFORE the text referring to them was written …not all the things that were “added” later by the Catholic Church…
Moreover, we don’t even know what they were about …

 

[St.Eric]

kujo313:

If all this was true, and that we’d have to go through Mary to get to Jesus, then that “tradition” would’ve been carefully (and repeatedly) pointed out by Jesus and His disciples. Yet, we don’t see it.
We only hear about Jesus being the “one Mediator” between God and man.
So, I guess, you can go to Mary for whatever. But, because of Jesus I can go directly to God, through only Jesus, in the Holy Spirit.

As honorable as she “seems” in “scripture”, it is not pointed out by Jesus and carried out by His disciples.
It either points out one of two things:

1. As important as it is, nobody had a clue until hundreds of years later.
   Something of that importance would’ve been pointed out.
2. It wasn’t necessary to go through her.
   We see in the latter part of the Gospels, in Acts and the letters that nobody goes through Mary.

You are stuck on a false belief. You keep infereing that Catholics think we have to go through Mary to get to Jesus. No where in any of my posts does it say this. I dont beleive this and the church neither beleives this or teches this. Christ is the one mediator for Salvation. End of story. Did Christ specifically teach the 10 commandamnets in his ministry? Did any of the disciples teach it?

 

[Huguenot]

St.Eric:

You are stuck on a false belief. You keep infereing that Catholics think we have to go through Mary to get to Jesus. No where in any of my posts does it say this. I dont beleive this and the church neither beleives this or teches this. Christ is the one mediator for Salvation. End of story. Did Christ specifically teach the 10 commandamnets in his ministry? Did any of the disciples teach it?

But if you “can” go to Jesus “directly”, "not “through Mary”, then why do some Catholics insist (maybe it’s not your case ) that WE Protestants should also pray to her ? What’s the point then ?

As for the ten commandments, Jesus sums them up when He says we must love God with all our heart …and our neighbour with all our heart : if you love your neighbour, you will not steal anything from him, you will not bear false testimony against him, you will not take his wife, and so on …

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

If all this was true, and that we’d have to go through Mary to get to Jesus, then that “tradition” would’ve been carefully (and repeatedly) pointed out by Jesus and His disciples.

You are not seeing the beauty in the gift that Jesus gave the world as He was dying on the cross. He gave His mother to all of us “Behold your mother” (in the Bible). That is your gift to reject. Most Protestants have. Again if you ask the early Christians - the Catholic Church and the Orthodox (who were united with us for the first 1,000 years before schism) you will see a consistent reverence for the Blessed Virgin. The Bible says will we call her “Blessed” (in the Bible) yet you continue to call her just “Mary”. It is your tradition that degrades her. It is *your *tradition that lowered her significance in the fulfillment of the Old Testament as the “New Eve”. *That *is of man. The Catholic Tradition is the Word of God.

 

[Eden]

Huguenot:

But if you “can” go to Jesus “directly”, "not “through Mary”, then why do some Catholics insist (maybe it’s not your case ) that WE Protestants should also pray to her ? What’s the point then ?

As for the ten commandments, Jesus sums them up when He says we must love God with all our heart …and our neighbour with all our heart : if you love your neighbour, you will not steal anything from him, you will not bear false testimony against him, you will not take his wife, and so on …

I don’t believe anyone insists. No Catholic is obligated to ask Our Lady to pray for them. But as we have been given this gift, why would we not ask the Mother of God to pray for us? I’m sure you have no problem asking all of us here to pray for you. Why would asking His mother offend you?

 

[Huguenot]

Eden:

I don’t believe anyone insists. No Catholic is obligated to ask Our Lady to pray for them. But as we have been given this gift, why would we not ask the Mother of God to pray for us? I’m sure you have no problem asking all of us here to pray for you. Why would asking His mother offend you?

SOME insist .
Moreover I don’t consider her as my mother : Jesus “gave” her to John …and He gave John to her …

Christ is the new Adam, but I haven’t read anywhere in the Bible that Mary is the new Eve … ( ??? ) …

 

[Eden]

Huguenot:

SOME insist .
Moreover I don’t consider her as my mother : Jesus “gave” her to John …and He gave John to her …

Well, it doesn’t matter what some fringe Catholics tell you to do. It is not a teaching in the Church that one must have a relationship with the Virgin. A Catholic can go go their entire life with out ever asking for her intercession once and they have not violated the teachings of the Church. The possibility is there for those who seek her assistance.

“Behold your mother” was directed to John but was an invitation to us all. He loved His mother deeply. Why should we not emulate Him?

Christ is the new Adam, but I haven’t read anywhere in the Bible that Mary is the new Eve … ( ??? ) …

Go to scripturecatholic.com and look in the section on “The Virgin Mary”. She is the fulfillment of the promise in Genesis as the “New Eve”. While Eve rejects God, the “New Eve” rejects Satan by saying yes to God. There is a more detailed thread on this in Apologetics (started by SinginBeauty). It is really powerful when you see the foreshadowing of the coming of the Savior in the Old Testament and the paralleling fulfillment of that promise in the New Testament.

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

Well, it doesn’t matter what some fringe Catholics tell you to do. It is not a teaching in the Church that one must have a relationship with the Virgin. A Catholic can go go their entire life with out ever asking for her intercession once and they have not violated the teachings of the Church. The possibility is there for those who seek her assistance.

“Behold your mother” was directed to John but was an invitation to us all. He loved His mother deeply. Why should we not emulate Him?

Go to scripturecatholic.com and look in the section on “The Virgin Mary”. She is the fulfillment of the promise in Genesis as the “New Eve”. While Eve rejects God, the “New Eve” rejects Satan by saying yes to God. There is a more detailed thread on this in Apologetics (started by SinginBeauty). It is really powerful when you see the foreshadowing of the coming of the Savior in the Old Testament and the paralleling fulfillment of that promise in the New Testament.

Couldn’t the woman mentioned in Genesis be Israel?

 

[DARichards]

kujo313:

Couldn’t the woman mentioned in Genesis be Israel?

No. The woman mentioned in Genesis 3:15 could not be Israel. There are scriptural reasons for this. Let’s look at the verse.

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

1. The verse is symbolic, but if you read the context, God the Father is speaking directly to Satan. He says that “the woman’s” offspring will strike at his head. Did the nation of Israel do this? No the fullfillment of this verse was completed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. This was the blow to Satan’s head.

2)In addition, Christ addressed Mary the same way at the wedding of Cana. This is the only record of any other woman being referred to with the title “woman”.

1. The majority of Christian theologians throughout history, regardless of affiliation have all seen this as a reference to Mary.

Also, as Eve came from the rib of Adam, So the necessity of a sinless vessel came from the Incarnation of Christ.

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

Well, it doesn’t matter what some fringe Catholics tell you to do. It is not a teaching in the Church that one must have a relationship with the Virgin. A Catholic can go go their entire life with out ever asking for her intercession once and they have not violated the teachings of the Church. The possibility is there for those who seek her assistance.

“Behold your mother” was directed to John but was an invitation to us all. He loved His mother deeply. Why should we not emulate Him?

Go to scripturecatholic.com and look in the section on “The Virgin Mary”. She is the fulfillment of the promise in Genesis as the “New Eve”. While Eve rejects God, the “New Eve” rejects Satan by saying yes to God. There is a more detailed thread on this in Apologetics (started by SinginBeauty). It is really powerful when you see the foreshadowing of the coming of the Savior in the Old Testament and the paralleling fulfillment of that promise in the New Testament.

While it is true that some Catholics don’t “worship” Mary, others do.
One post to this thread is:

You are not seeing the beauty in the gift that Jesus gave the world as He was dying on the cross. He gave His mother to all of us “Behold your mother” (in the Bible). That is your gift to reject. Most Protestants have. Again if you ask the early Christians - the Catholic Church and the Orthodox (who were united with us for the first 1,000 years before schism) you will see a consistent reverence for the Blessed Virgin. The Bible says will we call her “Blessed” (in the Bible) yet you continue to call her just “Mary”. It is your tradition that degrades her. It is your tradition that lowered her significance in the fulfillment of the Old Testament as the “New Eve”. That is of man. The Catholic Tradition is the Word of God.

Apparently, according to “tradition” that is listed IN the Bible, nobody did that. Nobody, that is, until HUNDREDS of years later.
The apostles taught to keep “traditions” that they started, but none of them mentioned Mary.

Sure, the Mary says that people shall call her “blessed” and that is still true today. But was the intention of that title meant to be given as the one who gave birth to the Son of Man, or to the one who is the “Queen of Heaven”?
Mary lived a humble life and she, herself, was a follower of the Messiah. Jesus, Himself, belittled her in Matthew 12:46-50.

"48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

That sounds like he was disowning her, to me. But He wasn’t. He was simply redirecting the people. The same “redirecting” needs to be done today.

The traditions of the Catholic Church are truly not the traditions that was taught by Jesus and follow by His early Church.

Where I worship, we sing praises and worship to our Lord. We listen as our Pastor teaches. We serve communion. We confess our sins to one another. We feed the hungry. We clothe the naked. We shelter the homeless from the cold. We baptize those who have confessed Jesus as their Savior as He has taught us to do so (and the apostles did). We break bread with one another in our own homes.

I, personally, believe that when Jesus died on the cross, Mary was a widow. John was directed to do what is described in James 1:27. He cared for the widowed.

Finally, in the responses that I have received concerning Mary:
one would say “we don’t worship Mary” while another one does. Don’t you guys chat with one another?

 

[kujo313]

DARichards:

No. The woman mentioned in Genesis 3:15 could not be Israel. There are scriptural reasons for this. Let’s look at the verse.

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

1. The verse is symbolic, but if you read the context, God the Father is speaking directly to Satan. He says that “the woman’s” offspring will strike at his head. Did the nation of Israel do this? No the fullfillment of this verse was completed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. This was the blow to Satan’s head.

2)In addition, Christ addressed Mary the same way at the wedding of Cana. This is the only record of any other woman being referred to with the title “woman”.

1. The majority of Christian theologians throughout history, regardless of affiliation have all seen this as a reference to Mary.

Also, as Eve came from the rib of Adam, So the necessity of a sinless vessel came from the Incarnation of Christ.

Ok. IF that is true, then nowhere in the Old Testament does it say just WHAT to do with the virgin. It does NOT say to worhsip her.
Jesus tells Satan that God, alone, is to be worshipped. The angel tells John to not worship him, but to worship God.

Worship of Mary is not scriptual or traditional. It was brought up hundred of years later by man; a new “tradition” started.

I prefer Acts 5:29
“But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

The disciples (and their disciples) did not lift Mary up. Instead, they taught about Jesus. There is enough intentions in their writings to prove my point.

Yet, some Catholics follow “traditions” made by men hundreds of years later.

One of the things on Pope John Paul II’s agenda was to declare Mary as co-Mediator. I believe that the current Pope is interested in the same. This idea is NOT from the Bible, but from thousands of lay people and ordinary people from around the world TODAY.

Mmm. Obey God or man?

If the current Pope declares that Mary is co-Mediator, what would you do?

 

[DARichards]

kujo313:

Ok. IF that is true, then nowhere in the Old Testament does it say just WHAT to do with the virgin. It does NOT say to worhsip her.
Jesus tells Satan that God, alone, is to be worshipped. The angel tells John to not worship him, but to worship God.

Worship of Mary is not scriptual or traditional. It was brought up hundred of years later by man; a new “tradition” started.

PLEASE REFRAIN FROM STATING THAT CATHOLICS WORSHIP MARY. CATHOLICS DON’T WORSHIP MARY!!

Please read this carefully. It was taken from www.catholicconvert.com

***Worship is a word that needs to be understood if we are to delve into this topic in any meaningful way. Understanding that there are differing “levels” of respect to be given to others and to God, the Catholic has carefully defined their terms. One is to honor God but also honor their father and mother. Leviticus 19:32 “You will stand up in the presence of gray hair, you will honour the person of the aged and fear your God.” The Israelites who worship God alone are commanded to show a level of honor by rising to their feet in the presence of gray-haired and aged men. This “standing up” is a sign of respect and honor but is not confused with the command in the same verse to “fear your God”. They also fall down on their faces in front of the king. Consider David and King Saul: “David arose and went out of the cave and called after Saul, saying, “My lord the king!” And when Saul looked behind him, David bowed with his face to the ground and prostrated himself” (1 Sam 24:8).

The average American may assume, if they are not aware of ancient customs and protocol that David might actually be worshiping Saul. But far be it from the heart of David to worship a man, even though he calls him “Lord” and prostrates himself on the ground before him. One falls on their face before God, but also before the King but the actions of the heart are quite distinct in either case.

In order to make this differentiation clear, Catholic doctrine has explained the distinction with the terms latria, dulia, and hyperdulia. Latria is the “worship” and “adoration” allowed to God alone; whereas, dulia and hyperdulia are forms of respect and veneration given to worthy creatures. I cannot explain it better than F. M. Jelly, O.P., in his article “Marian Devotion”. He writes,

“In more technical terms used by the Tradition to draw this important distinction, devotion to Mary belongs to the veneration of dulia, or the homage and honor owed to the saints, both angelic and human in heaven, and not to latria, or the adoration and worship that can be given only to the Triune God and the Son incarnate. Because of her unique relationship to Christ in salvation history, however, the special degree of devotion due to Mary has traditionally been called hyperdulia. While latria is owed to her Son by reason of unity of his divine and human natures in the Person of the Word made flesh, hyperdulia is due to Mary as truly his Mother (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, II-II, q. 103, a. 4; III, q. 25, a. 5) (Shaw, ed., Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine [Huntington, IN:** **

kujo313:

I prefer Acts 5:29
“But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’”

The disciples (and their disciples) did not lift Mary up. Instead, they taught about Jesus. There is enough intentions in their writings to prove my point.

Yet, some Catholics follow “traditions” made by men hundreds of years later.

One of the things on Pope John Paul II’s agenda was to declare Mary as co-Mediator. I believe that the current Pope is interested in the same. This idea is NOT from the Bible, but from thousands of lay people and ordinary people from around the world TODAY.

Mmm. Obey God or man?

If the current Pope declares that Mary is co-Mediator, what would you do?

The title of Co-Mediator, does not imply that Mary is trying to wedged in as the fourth person of the Trinity or that she is trying to be deified. As Mary chose of her free will to carry and raise the Christ child, she assisted in the mediation of God and man. There is only one mediator between God and man, that is Jesus Christ, God incarnate. He paid the price and re-united God and man. He satisifed the requirements to satisfy God’s wrath. In this plan, Mary assisted God. This does not imply diety, or worship due as God, but in this sense, yes, Mary was co-mediator*

 

[kujo313]

DARichards:

PLEASE REFRAIN FROM STATING THAT CATHOLICS WORSHIP MARY. CATHOLICS DON’T WORSHIP MARY!!

Please read this carefully. It was taken from www.catholicconvert.com

***Worship is a word that needs to be understood if we are to delve into this topic in any meaningful way. Understanding that there are differing “levels” of respect to be given to others and to God, the Catholic has carefully defined their terms. One is to honor God but also honor their father and mother. Leviticus 19:32 “You will stand up in the presence of gray hair, you will honour the person of the aged and fear your God.” The Israelites who worship God alone are commanded to show a level of honor by rising to their feet in the presence of gray-haired and aged men. This “standing up” is a sign of respect and honor but is not confused with the command in the same verse to “fear your God”. They also fall down on their faces in front of the king. Consider David and King Saul: “David arose and went out of the cave and called after Saul, saying, “My lord the king!” And when Saul looked behind him, David bowed with his face to the ground and prostrated himself” (1 Sam 24:8).

The average American may assume, if they are not aware of ancient customs and protocol that David might actually be worshiping Saul. But far be it from the heart of David to worship a man, even though he calls him “Lord” and prostrates himself on the ground before him. One falls on their face before God, but also before the King but the actions of the heart are quite distinct in either case.

In order to make this differentiation clear, Catholic doctrine has explained the distinction with the terms latria, dulia, and hyperdulia. Latria is the “worship” and “adoration” allowed to God alone; whereas, dulia and hyperdulia are forms of respect and veneration given to worthy creatures. I cannot explain it better than F. M. Jelly, O.P., in his article “Marian Devotion”. He writes,

“In more technical terms used by the Tradition to draw this important distinction, devotion to Mary belongs to the veneration of dulia, or the homage and honor owed to the saints, both angelic and human in heaven, and not to latria, or the adoration and worship that can be given only to the Triune God and the Son incarnate. Because of her unique relationship to Christ in salvation history, however, the special degree of devotion due to Mary has traditionally been called hyperdulia. While latria is owed to her Son by reason of unity of his divine and human natures in the Person of the Word made flesh, hyperdulia is due to Mary as truly his Mother (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, II-II, q. 103, a. 4; III, q. 25, a. 5) (Shaw, ed., Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine [Huntington, IN:** ***

The title of Co-Mediator, does not imply that Mary is trying to wedged in as the fourth person of the Trinity or that she is trying to be deified. As Mary chose of her free will to carry and raise the Christ child, she assisted in the mediation of God and man. There is only one mediator between God and man, that is Jesus Christ, God incarnate. He paid the price and re-united God and man. He satisifed the requirements to satisfy God’s wrath. In this plan, Mary assisted God. This does not imply diety, or worship due as God, but in this sense, yes, Mary was co-mediator

In ANY sense, God did NOT need any assistance. God can make sons of Abraham from stones (Matthew 3:9). By Mary giving birth to Jesus, the prophecy from Isaiah 7:14 was fulfilled as Jesus fulfilled ALL of the Messaniac prophecies.
Mary was only a sign. Just as Jesus coming out of Egypt and that none of His bones shall be broken.
Also, Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Mary did NOT try to “wedge” herself into the Trinity, man did hundreds of years later.

Obviously, neither one of us is going to budge on our beliefs. You can follow traditions of men that was made hundreds of years after Jesus. Meanwhile, I will follow the “tradition” started by Jesus and clearly followed by His disciples.