To Protestants: why do you do this?

[RodneyJ]

Because of the teachings I would say…

Justification being a process…
Saying infants are born again at baptism…
Indication that one can lose salvation…
Worshipping Mary…yes…praying to her is worship…
Doctrines like purgatory…
Facination with ritual and statues…

And, included in this is the confession of most Catholics at their door (during evangelism) that they are banking on their own righteousness for meriting salvation. Again, I am not saying that you do this…I am simply giving my own testimony as to what I find in the real world. Honestly, many in Protestant circles need to hear the gospel as well. Being “churchy” means nothing without having salvation - being justified by faith and undergoing sanctification through to glorification.

Or is this what your Independent Fundamentalist Pastor tells you?

 

[Memaw]

Blah, blah… Protestants killed Catholics, Catholics killed Protestants, Protestants killed Anabaptists, Catholics killed Anglicans, Anglicans killed Catholics… blah, blah, ad infinitum. Mozart, playing the blame game gets us nowhere. All sides participated in the bloodshed. So give it up already.

In spite of all the terrible things done by us weak.sinful human beings, that doesn’t make the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church wrong. Christ said HIS Church would never error and HE would be with it till the end of time. Either we believe HIM or we must consider HIM not truthful. Believe me if the Catholic Church can’t be destroyed by its own sinful members after over 2,000 years, it will take more than 60,000 different protestant denominations to do it. Christ said not even the “Gates of Hell” shall prevail against HIS Church. Step back and take a look at things. Tell me what “one” Church stands up against Birth Control, Abortion, pre-martial sex, homosexuality, divorce and remarriage, embryonic stem cell research, Euthanasia,etc. While the other 60,000 disagree amongst themselves about these things.

 

[Memaw]

Because of the teachings I would say…

Justification being a process…
Saying infants are born again at baptism…
Indication that one can lose salvation…
Worshipping Mary…yes…praying to her is worship…
Doctrines like purgatory…
Facination with ritual and statues…

And, included in this is the confession of most Catholics at their door (during evangelism) that they are banking on their own righteousness for meriting salvation. Again, I am not saying that you do this…I am simply giving my own testimony as to what I find in the real world. Honestly, many in Protestant circles need to hear the gospel as well. Being “churchy” means nothing without having salvation - being justified by faith and undergoing sanctification through to glorification.

You are wrong on all points, it is clear to see you have NO idea what you are talking about. Every protestant convert to the Catholic Faith that I know of says while they spent years studying the Bible, they really knew very little about what it really means.
I have been confronted by protestants of many denominations and they “tell” me so many things that are false beliefs about my faith. But funny thing, they will not take my word for what I truly believe.

We DO NOT worship Mary, we DO NOT worship statues, we have EVERY right to call our priests Father. Most Converts love the Mass and other Catholic practices. If you can’t “loose” your salvation thru sin, then why did Jesus tell those he forgave, to go and “sin” no more. If you can’t loose your salvation then what difference would it make what you do & what would be the need for forgiveness in the first place? Sad to say to many think they can do anything they want today and still get to heaven.
And yes I believe we are to “go into the world and tell the Good News” the Holy Spirit will help us but we do have to give a reason for the faith that is in us. But as far as “pressure”, I think that comes more from protestant denominations then I have ever seen among Catholics.

 

[Huguenot]

You totally missed the point I was trying to make. I know that nobody burns heretics now. You might think I am stupid, but I really am not.

My point was that heresy is such a serious charge, that in times past both Catholics and the Reformed persecuted and killed those it deemed heretics. Although that is not done now, I doubt whether the gravity of heresy has been diminished.

Against that background, I linked a prominent Catholic web page that charged Protestantism as being a great heresy.

Now another group I sometimes post in that has a very arrogant Baptist in it who was constantly referring to the Catholic Church as a “false church”. The Catholics (rightly) took offense at that, and this fellow was eventually moderated. I approved of the moderation because his rhetoric was offensive.

If the Catholics can rightly take offense at their church being called a false church, why can’t I take offense at my church being called a part of a great heresy?

If someone tried to burn heretics today, Al Gore would protest saying it accelerates global warming, that’s why I’m not afraid of getting burned …:extrahappy:

 

[Memaw]

That is surprsing. I have never been evangalized by a Roman Catholic. Not even when I particpated in a Life in the Spirit Seminar in College. The Priest and others were very respectful and when they prayed the Rosary let us know that they were Catholics and did it but we did not have to. They knew I was Anglican and no one evangelized me.

North

Good example is a great evangelizer. I am surprised, I know many Anglican’s that pray the Rosary. .In fact I know one that prayed herself right into the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

If you can’t “loose” your salvation thru sin, then why did Jesus tell those he forgave, to go and “sin” no more. If you can’t loose your salvation then what difference would it make what you do & what would be the need for forgiveness in the first place? Sad to say to many think they can do anything they want today and still get to heaven.
And yes I believe we are to “go into the world and tell the Good News” the Holy Spirit will help us but we do have to give a reason for the faith that is in us. But as far as “pressure”, I think that comes more from protestant denominations then I have ever seen among Catholics.

I agree with the concept of what you are saying,but I don’t think this framework (losing) is helpful when talking to those who have been influenced by Calvanism. I think it is more useful to say that those who are not perfected in love may fail to attain salvation. Most OSAS folks think of salvation as something that has occurred when the “sinners prayer” is said, but this is not biblical. Scripture clearly shows that salvation is in process as we work out our salvation in fear and trembling" and that salvation is something that is not completed this side of the grave.

You are right, and there are several passages about apostacy and being “cut off”, so conceptually, it is true, but framing it that way seems to make the discussion go in circles. :coffeeread:

 

[Memaw]

I agree with the concept of what you are saying,but I don’t think this framework (losing) is helpful when talking to those who have been influenced by Calvanism. I think it is more useful to say that those who are not perfected in love may fail to attain salvation. Most OSAS folks think of salvation as something that has occurred when the “sinners prayer” is said, but this is not biblical. Scripture clearly shows that salvation is in process as we work out our salvation in fear and trembling" and that salvation is something that is not completed this side of the grave.

You are right, and there are several passages about apostacy and being “cut off”, so conceptually, it is true, but framing it that way seems to make the discussion go in circles. :coffeeread:

Most protestants do not read the Bible for what it really says. Self interpretation is tearing the protestant denominations apart. Christ was VERY clear about what HE said on forgiveness. In order to be forgiven, we have to be sorry for our sins. No one will ever be perfected in love on this side of Heaven. With the Grace of God, we do our best to fulfill HIS will in our lives and Trust HIS Love and Mercy.

 

[Mach1Man]

mark a;1499194]This sounds so foreign. Catholics are nearly always thought of as non-evangelizers.

This is very true. My Wife comes from a predominantly Roman Catholic family, and I don’t know of any of them who try to Evangelize. This is sad because Jesus tells us in Acts that we are to go out and make Disciples. This is only my opinion, but I feel the reason that so many non Catholics witness to others is because they are more hungry to spread the Gospel. I don’t know of any of my Christian friends who thinks that there is a special crown for us in Heaven if we convert a Catholic. I also don’t like the term “Protestant” because I’m NOT protesting Christ’s church.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

This is very true. My Wife comes from a predominantly Roman Catholic family, and I don’t know of any of them who try to Evangelize. This is sad because Jesus tells us in Acts that we are to go out and make Disciples. This is only my opinion, but I feel the reason that so many non Catholics witness to others is because they are more hungry to spread the Gospel. I don’t know of any of my Christian friends who thinks that there is a special crown for us in Heaven if we convert a Catholic. I also don’t like the term “Protestant” because I’m NOT protesting Christ’s church.

Catholic’s evangelize by living the Christian life as a example for others not by telling people how they live a Christian life. Actions do speak louder than words.

You may not be protesting Christ’s Church but that is what it was called when someone first believed as you do now.

 

[bookgirl32]

Hi,
As a born again christian in a non-denom church–probably similar to what you grew up in, I would ask catholics the same exact thing. Catholics do the same exact thing to protestants.

BTW, I do not convince catholics to leave their church either. If they ask me questions about my church or want to visit, I would never turn them away. I have a bible study in my house with 2 catholics that go to their respective churches. They have come to events at my church, but I have never asked them to leave theirs. God will lead them where He wants them to be.

Has anybody touched on this yet (I haven’t read the entire thread). Since protestants (some, I should clarify) believe in OSAS, their focus can be much more on helping other people be saved as well. I’m NOT saying anything negative, I don’t think that most Protestants think that they don’t need to pay attention to their own spiritual life. But Catholics may still be quite preoccupied with working out their own salvation? Just a thought.

 

[guanophore]

This is very true. My Wife comes from a predominantly Roman Catholic family, and I don’t know of any of them who try to Evangelize. This is sad because Jesus tells us in Acts that we are to go out and make Disciples. This is only my opinion, but I feel the reason that so many non Catholics witness to others is because they are more hungry to spread the Gospel. I don’t know of any of my Christian friends who thinks that there is a special crown for us in Heaven if we convert a Catholic. I also don’t like the term “Protestant” because I’m NOT protesting Christ’s church.

Welcome to CAF! I agree with what you say about evangelizing. Many Catholics come up short on this one. You probably don’t realize that you are Protesting Christ’s Church, and you may not be doing it willfully. Most Protestants have no idea where there theology came from, and believe it is from the bible.

 

[Sola_C_F_G_S_DG]

So why do YOU feel it is necessary to try to persuade Catholics that their Church is in error? Are you getting some kind of reward in heaven for this? Can’t you just accept Catholics as fellow Christians who practice their faith differently than you do and rejoice with them?

I personally think the devil must be laughing his head off. He is convincing Christians to witness to Catholics, who are fellow Christians, instead of pagans who are lost in their sins and don’t know Jesus. Tragic.

I have not followed this thread in depth, but here are my thoughts:

For us, there are two religions in the world:
The religion of human achievment and the religion of divine accomplishment. Every false relgion, in some way, blends human achievment with divine accomplishment. Our concern is that the RCC has done this. Our motivation for evangelizing those in false religions is truth and love, and the example of our Lord in his bold confrontation of false religion. Jesus had a ton in common with Pharisees. monotheism, zeal for the law, synagogue worship, Jewish ancestory, love for the nation, etc, yet despite how much they had in common, in no way did He embrace them, but rather, confronted them. They had added too much tradition and too much human responsibity for Jesus to embrace them.

Mark 7:8 laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of man.
Lk 16:15 you are those who justify yourselves before men.

If Jesus laid these important difference aside for the sake of unity, Protestants would do the same. But since Jesus confronted false religion with the truth, no matter how much he might have “had in common,” Protestants do the same.

Note, Jesus spent far more time confronting false Judaism (Pharasiasm) than he did evangelizing Gentiles.

For Protestants, those lost in false religion are equally as lost as those lost in atheism, hedonism, etc. We try to take the truth to everyone.

I realize this doesn’t solve the problem, but does it answer your question?

 

[guanophore]

I have not followed this thread in depth, but here are my thoughts:

For us, there are two religions in the world:
The religion of human achievment and the religion of divine accomplishment. Every false relgion, in some way, blends human achievment with divine accomplishment. Our concern is that the RCC has done this. Our motivation for evangelizing those in false religions is truth and love, and the example of our Lord in his bold confrontation of false religion. Jesus had a ton in common with Pharisees. monotheism, zeal for the law, synagogue worship, Jewish ancestory, love for the nation, etc, yet despite how much they had in common, in no way did He embrace them, but rather, confronted them. They had added too much tradition and too much human responsibity for Jesus to embrace them.

Mark 7:8 laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of man.
Lk 16:15 you are those who justify yourselves before men.

If Jesus laid these important difference aside for the sake of unity, Protestants would do the same. But since Jesus confronted false religion with the truth, no matter how much he might have “had in common,” Protestants do the same.

Note, Jesus spent far more time confronting false Judaism (Pharasiasm) than he did evangelizing Gentiles.

For Protestants, those lost in false religion are equally as lost as those lost in atheism, hedonism, etc. We try to take the truth to everyone.

I realize this doesn’t solve the problem, but does it answer your question?

Welcome to CAF. I hope that you did not come here for the purpose of evangelizing the poor lost Catholics who you think place their traditions above the Word of God.

 

[sapamarogi]

I am a born again christian who was brought up Catholic. I did not know the truth of the Bible through the Catholic Church. I found the Lord through the preaching of the GOSPEL by Billy Graham and began to read the Bible for myself. There is where I found the TRUTH. Jesus said: “If you continue in MY WORD, then you will be my disciples, and the TRUTH will set you free.” The Catholic Church does not preach from the Bible. The Word of God is the TRUTH. The Truth is that JESUS PAID IT ALL on the cross and it is ours to receive (JESUS as the GIFT of Eternal Life). The Catholic Church tries to add things. There is nothing to add. There is only one SAVIOUR - The Lord Jesus Christ and HE is the second Adam. Just ask Catholics if they know if they are going to heaven and they have NO ASSURANCE of heaven. But the TRUTH - the Bible says you can KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE in where it says in the Epistle of John that says if you have the SON you have eternal life and if you do not have the Son you do not have eternal life.

All cults have believe with works. The true church is faith in JESUS CHRIST to be born again - born of God - New Creature in Christ. The Catholic Church is the largest cult there is but most people don’t know what they truly believe. They do not preach the GOSPEL OF THE BIBLE. So Paul said if they preach another Jesus let them be anathema.

I know Catholics love God but they do not know truly what JESUS did for them on the cross because it is not preached in the Catholic Church.

I pray that those in the Catholic Church who love JESUS would read the Bible for themselves and find the Truth that would set them free.

Preaching the TRUTH in Jesus name.

 

[guanophore]

I am a born again christian who was brought up Catholic. I did not know the truth of the Bible through the Catholic Church. I found the Lord through the preaching of the GOSPEL by Billy Graham and began to read the Bible for myself. There is where I found the TRUTH. Jesus said: “If you continue in MY WORD, then you will be my disciples, and the TRUTH will set you free.” The Catholic Church does not preach from the Bible.

Welcome to CAF, sapamarogi. I am glad to hear that you have come to love the Bible, and disappointed to hear that you did not hear it when you were growing up. I wonder where your mind was during the Mass?

The Word of God is the TRUTH. The Truth is that JESUS PAID IT ALL on the cross and it is ours to receive (JESUS as the GIFT of Eternal Life). The Catholic Church tries to add things. There is nothing to add. There is only one SAVIOUR - The Lord Jesus Christ and HE is the second Adam.

Do you know where the Bible came from, sapamarogi? What was it you think has been “added”?

Just ask Catholics if they know if they are going to heaven and they have NO ASSURANCE of heaven. But the TRUTH - the Bible says you can KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE in where it says in the Epistle of John that says if you have the SON you have eternal life and if you do not have the Son you do not have eternal life.

Yes, such assurance is considered a sin of presumption. Catholics believe that to “have the Son” means to obey all that He has commanded. Since Catholics believe in free will (we can choose to live eternally with God, or not) we know that we can, at any time, abandon our walk with God and return to a sinful life, which will prevent us from being with Him in heaven.

All cults have believe with works. The true church is faith in JESUS CHRIST to be born again - born of God - New Creature in Christ. The Catholic Church is the largest cult there is but most people don’t know what they truly believe. They do not preach the GOSPEL OF THE BIBLE. So Paul said if they preach another Jesus let them be anathema.

This is very curious. What “works” do you think Catholics must do to be saved? What makes you think that the message of the Gospel is different?

I know Catholics love God but they do not know truly what JESUS did for them on the cross because it is not preached in the Catholic Church.

I pray that those in the Catholic Church who love JESUS would read the Bible for themselves and find the Truth that would set them free.

Preaching the TRUTH in Jesus name.

I will agree with you in prayer that Catholics immerse themselves in the Holy Word of God, and that Truth will set them free. I am curious, though, why you thnk that what Jesus did for us on the cross is not preached in the Catholic Church, because it seems to me that it is the central aspect of the Divine Liturgy.

 

[Sola_C_F_G_S_DG]

Welcome to CAF. I hope that you did not come here for the purpose of evangelizing the poor lost Catholics who you think place their traditions above the Word of God.

Thanks for the welcome. It’s interesting that you applied my post on Jesus’ confrontation of false religion to the RCC. I showed how Jesus confronted false Judaism, and you applied that to Catholicism. I said that Jesus said Pharisees placed their traditions above the Word of God…you were the one who saw the similarities to Catholicism.

I’m not here to evangelize anyone. That would be a poor outreach strategy in a setting like this. I am here for personal edification and mental and theological sharpening.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… So why do YOU feel it is necessary to try to persuade Catholics that their Church is in error? Are you getting some kind of reward in heaven for this? Can’t you just accept Catholics as fellow Christians who practice their faith differently than you do and rejoice with them? …

I’m not trying to persuade anyone Catholicism is wrong or right; i’m only trying to persuade myself.

 

[sapamarogi]

Assurance of Salvation is preached in the Bible. Read 1 John 5:24: Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears MY WORD, and believes HIM who sent ME(JESUS), HAS ETERNAL LIFE, AND DOES NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, BUT HAS PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE." HAS ETERNAL LIFE. What about that do you not understand. “For the wages of sin is death(separation from God), BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS.” Romans 6:23. Read the book of ROMANS - full of how to be saved. “For by GRACE(undeserved favor) you HAVE BEEN SAVED through FAITH; and that NOT of YOURSELVES, it is THE GIFT OF GOD; NOT OF WORKS, lest any man may boast.” Ephesians 2:8

JESUS TOOK OUR PLACE ON THE CROSS - TOOK OUR SIN AND OUR SIN NATURE AND PUT IT TO DEATH, WENT DOWN INTO HELL AND PAID OUR PENALTY AND THEN ROSE TO SIT AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER. JESUS is the GIFT - He paid it all - now all that is needed is our realization of our need for a Saviour and to receive HIM - HE IS THE ETERNAL LIFE - IT IS A PERSON. HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE.

 

[guanophore]

Thanks for the welcome. It’s interesting that you applied my post on Jesus’ confrontation of false religion to the RCC. I showed how Jesus confronted false Judaism, and you applied that to Catholicism. I said that Jesus said Pharisees placed their traditions above the Word of God…you were the one who saw the similarities to Catholicism.

I’m not here to evangelize anyone. That would be a poor outreach strategy in a setting like this. I am here for personal edification and mental and theological sharpening.

You came to the right place! CAF is very good for a mental and theological sharpening. No, I do not see a similarity to Catholicism, but that is a familiar song we hear on the forum. You post had that familiar sounding refrain. Besides, I don’t agree with your characterization of “Jesus’ confrontation with false religion”. I think that Jesus was a good Jew, that he followed the Old Covenant perfectly, and that Judiasm is the gift of God to mankind, since salvation is of the Jews.

 

[guanophore]

Assurance of Salvation is preached in the Bible. Read 1 John 5:24: Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears MY WORD, and believes HIM who sent ME(JESUS), HAS ETERNAL LIFE, AND DOES NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, BUT HAS PASSED OUT OF DEATH INTO LIFE." HAS ETERNAL LIFE. What about that do you not understand.

What makes you think I don’t understand that? Is it because I said it was a sin to be presumptuous?

“For the wages of sin is death(separation from God), BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS.” Romans 6:23. Read the book of ROMANS - full of how to be saved. “For by GRACE(undeserved favor) you HAVE BEEN SAVED through FAITH; and that NOT of YOURSELVES, it is THE GIFT OF GOD; NOT OF WORKS, lest any man may boast.” Ephesians 2:8

sapamorogi, the whole of scripture is full of how to be saved. We don’t just carve out a few verses and ignore the rest.

JESUS TOOK OUR PLACE ON THE CROSS - TOOK OUR SIN AND OUR SIN NATURE AND PUT IT TO DEATH, WENT DOWN INTO HELL AND PAID OUR PENALTY AND THEN ROSE TO SIT AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER. JESUS is the GIFT - He paid it all - now all that is needed is our realization of our need for a Saviour and to receive HIM - HE IS THE ETERNAL LIFE - IT IS A PERSON. HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE.

Do you mean to tell me that you believe you no longer have a sin nature?