"To save the life of the mother" when and how?

[chain]

My intent on starting this thread was NOT to discuss the morality of the Catholic Pro-life position. After years of being away from the church, being a moral relativist, and telling myself I was against abortion, but would not force my opinion on others; I am now somewhere between “Fairly” and “Very” pro-life.

I mentioned “Fairly” only because I thought I was 100% inline with church teaching, only to find I had drawn a wrong conclusion on a small technicality. I thought that in a hypothetical situation where the woman’s life was at risk, the church allowed for extreme early c-sections to save the life of the mother w/o any chance of saving the life of the child. This is specifically against church teaching. As such my easy answer was flawed, so was looking for more complete answers on specific non-hypothetical situations.

I still can not think of a single non-hypothetical situation that can not be treated within Catholic teaching. For the congenital heart problems - you treat the heart problem, if the mother and child survive that treatment, then the child could be carried to term (or at least long enough to survive a c-section. Again, here neither the child or the pregnancy are a problem - the heart is the problem.​

anyway, bickering aside. Are there any other situations where abortionist would want to use against catholic teaching were there is (not) solutions that are inline with the Magisterium. I am beginning to wonder if there are actually any.

 

[tjm190]

I still can not think of a single non-hypothetical situation that can not be treated within Catholic teaching. For the congenital heart problems - you treat the heart problem, if the mother and child survive that treatment, then the child could be carried to term (or at least long enough to survive a c-section. Again, here neither the child or the pregnancy are a problem - the heart is the problem.

The case of the Nun who was excommunicated? (She didn’t get an abortion, but rather authorized one)

You can’t always just treat the actual ailment- it’s just a symptom of the mothers adverse reaction to the pregnancy and while you can generally hit it with drugs to temporarily reduce it, that isn’t a solution that is going to last for months.

 

[Rence]

I thought that in a hypothetical situation where the woman’s life was at risk, the church allowed for extreme early c-sections to save the life of the mother w/o any chance of saving the life of the child. This is specifically against church teaching. As such my easy answer was flawed, so was looking for more complete answers on specific non-hypothetical situations.

Actually, if a woman’s life is in danger she can have an early c-section when the fetus is viable, which is 20 weeks according to my text books. This is because the fetus has a chance of being brought to term by modern medical interventions.

Some people say that the woman in Arizona (with pulmonary hypertension) who had the abortion should have just had a c-section. From what I understand, she could not do that because the fetus was only 11 weeks, in which case, there was NO chance for survival. Those I have spoken to said the fetus has to be the age of viability.

For the congenital heart problems - you treat the heart problem, if the mother and child survive that treatment, then the child could be carried to term (or at least long enough to survive a c-section. Again, here neither the child or the pregnancy are a problem - the heart is the problem.

Unfortunately, it’s not as simple as that for some people. Congenital heart problems vary in severity from person to person. So it’s not always possible to bring the pregnancy to viability, let alone term. You’re right, pregnancy is not a pathological condition. Yes, the heart is the problem, but the problems were intensified to dangerous levels due to the physiological strains the pregnancy added to the already strained heart and lungs. In this case (like the one in Arizona), the Church teaches that abortion is not allowed. So, according to the Catholic Church, the physicians have to do their best to treat the underlying condition and just hope the woman survives until the fetus is viable, and survives the c-section as well.

 

[Rence]

Priests give absolution through the sacrament of Confession. When a woman (or man) presents herself to the Sacrament, she must have contrition.

I doubt people go into the sacrament, “Bless me Father, I really didn’t sin…but could I have absolution anyway?”

Well, I do know a woman (who is on this forum actually) whose life was in danger, and she had to have an abortion as a result, or she would die. Her priest and bishop both told her she had no other choice. It’s not really for us laypeople to decide. When Catholics go to their priest or bishop for advice or counsel, it’s in their capable hands. They have ALL the information particular to each person, that we don’t have. They know all the questions to ask, and look for particular answers.

I would think that a person was contrite, otherwise, why would they present themselves for confession? Why would they want absolution if they weren’t contrite? It is very possible to have sorrow for something you have done, even if you chose to do it believing it was the only option you had.

Remember, these aren’t abortions on demand that we’re discussing. These are abortions that are being done because the woman has been told that continuing the pregnancy will end her life. I can’t even imagine how sorrowful these women are. And scared.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Well, here’s what my theology teacher said (I go to a Catholic High School). I don’t think many of you will like the answer, though.

I asked the sleepwalker question and his immediate response was that the question was basurd (which it is) but that we have a right to defend ourelves and so could kill the sleepwalker. I then pointed out to him that this logic could be used to justify abortion in cases to save the Mother, and brought up the recent case of Sister McBride as an example. He responded that the case of Sister McBride was much more complicated than it really appeared and that in real life absolute moral dilemmas basically never exist; it is very, very, very rare when they do come about. If such an absolute moral dilemma comes about, I suppose the woman could, after consulting with their Priest, have the abortion and then immediately receive reconciliation.

Makes sense to me, but my guess is that this will be an unpopular answer.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Women who take methotrexate to end ectopic pregnancies are murderers?

How puzzling.

There is a whole thread on the ectopic pregnancy issue.

Medical morality is very complex, so I can’t answer that question with any certainty either way.

 

[Rence]

Well, here’s what my theology teacher said (I go to a Catholic High School). I don’t think many of you will like the answer, though.

I asked the sleepwalker question and his immediate response was that the question was basurd (which it is) but that we have a right to defend ourelves and so could kill the sleepwalker. I then pointed out to him that this logic could be used to justify abortion in cases to save the Mother, and brought up the recent case of Sister McBride as an example. He responded that the case of Sister McBride was much more complicated than it really appeared and that in real life absolute moral dilemmas basically never exist; it is very, very, very rare when they do come about. If such an absolute moral dilemma comes about, I suppose the woman could, after consulting with their Priest, have the abortion and then immediately receive reconciliation.

Makes sense to me, but my guess is that this will be an unpopular answer.

Well thank you for being honest about what your theology teacher said. But be prepared to hear all about how bad, evil, misguided and erred your theology instructor is even if he’s the one with the degree in theology …

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Well thank you for being honest about what your theology teacher said. But be prepared to hear all about how bad, evil, misguided and erred your theology instructor is even if he’s the one with the degree in theology …

I have a lot of respect for my theology teacher; while I can’t say he took any special interest in me (not that he should have!), he was in a large way responsible for making me think more and getting me to change from a cafeteria Catholic to a true Catholic. For the most part, I at any rate trust his opinion.

I bet that a lot of other people will have a problem with what he said though.

 

[Rence]

I have a lot of respect for my theology teacher; while I can’t say he took any special interest in me (not that he should have!), he was in a large way responsible for making me think more and getting me to change from a cafeteria Catholic to a true Catholic. For the most part, I at any rate trust his opinion.

I bet that a lot of other people will have a problem with what he said though.

But in all fairness, if the Church were to give an inch, there will always be those who will take a mile, and the very rare instances were are hearing about wouldn’t be as rare.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

But in all fairness, if the Church were to give an inch, there will always be those who will take a mile, and the very rare instances were are hearing about wouldn’t be as rare.

Well, in theory, anybody could sin as they pleased and take advnatage of confession, and most of the time they don’t. That’s why Catholics believe in temporal punishment, to try and prevent that kind of abuse.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Well thank you for being honest about what your theology teacher said. But be prepared to hear all about how bad, evil, misguided and erred your theology instructor is even if he’s the one with the degree in theology …

That really isn’t fair. I believe the Church. I believe that you cannot kill an innocent being to save another person.

I don’t think I’ve said anyone (even the Nun in question) is evil or bad.

Misguided, perhaps.

It isn’t about giving an inch.

It is about the Church…really God teaches we are all equal in dignity. The tiny baby in his mother’s womb, just because he is a baby, just because he is tiny does not deserve to be aborted to cure his mother. It doesn’t just have to do with, “it’s the Church rules.”

The Church doesn’t put the baby at a higher plane…both are equal. No one has advocated “terminating” the mother to save the baby.

@ Marc Anthony, I actually did not realize you were in high school. I guess you are looking for the “right” answers. May I suggest possibly contacting Priests for Life, Human Life International, and the National Catholic Bioethics Center.

On this forum. JReducation has been very helpful in teaching me (and I guess many) about the Catholic teaching regarding life. Try reading his posts.

Finally, as a practical matter, has anyone ever brought loved one in critical condition to the ER? Does anyone think that coming out of the hospital alive is a guarantee?

My father died in an ER from cardiac arrest. I would have done anything to help him live. But killing an innocent person wasn’t one of them. My Father and I probably had the same blood type. No doctor in the world would say, “Mary Gail, your father is dieing, do you want to give him your heart?”

But for some reason, the littlest, tiniest, most fragile people in the world are expendable.

I’m sure we all would like to die in bed when we are old. We don’t all have that possibility.

We don’t know when are time is.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Oh, believe me, I am EXTREMELY pro-life. I have seen videos by the Priests for Life, I have heard pro-life speakers, and have had extensive debates with people who were pro-choice defending the pro-life cause.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Oh, believe me, I am EXTREMELY pro-life. I have seen videos by the Priests for Life, I have heard pro-life speakers, and have had extensive debates with people who were pro-choice defending the pro-life cause.

That’s good to know! I’ve had opportunity to contact them for questions, and I’ve always had a positive experience.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Back a couple years ago when I was a cafeteria Catholic I was on the fence about abortion. A pro-life speaker at my High School completely convinced me. Keep in mind that at the time the pro-life speaker convinced me I was still a cafeteria Catholic. So I’m against abortion regardless of my religion. As it turns out, my religion and I agree.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Back a couple years ago when I was a cafeteria Catholic I was on the fence about abortion. A pro-life speaker at my High School completely convinced me. Keep in mind that at the time the pro-life speaker convinced me I was still a cafeteria Catholic. So I’m against abortion regardless of my religion. As it turns out, my religion and I agree.

I understand…I’m a revert, I spent 20 years awol from the Church. And I was “pro-choice” too. ( Funny, though, I was personally against abortion…but didn’t want to impose my will on others.

I became pro-life…then came back to the Church.

Nice meeting you, Marc Anthony.

 

[tjm190]

Well, here’s what my theology teacher said (I go to a Catholic High School). I don’t think many of you will like the answer, though.

I asked the sleepwalker question and his immediate response was that the question was basurd (which it is) but that we have a right to defend ourelves and so could kill the sleepwalker. I then pointed out to him that this logic could be used to justify abortion in cases to save the Mother, and brought up the recent case of Sister McBride as an example. He responded that the case of Sister McBride was much more complicated than it really appeared and that in real life absolute moral dilemmas basically never exist; it is very, very, very rare when they do come about. If such an absolute moral dilemma comes about, I suppose the woman could, after consulting with their Priest, have the abortion and then immediately receive reconciliation.

Makes sense to me, but my guess is that this will be an unpopular answer.

I would have labeled the question absurd myself, but there are actually dozens of such murders on record.
And yes, it is more complicated- for all we know there was a way to save both of them. That comes up whenever you use lethal force in self defense- you never know if there was ‘another way.’ But the Church condones lethal force to be used in self defense when it is reasonably certain that failure to use such force would cost us our lives.
Secondly, I’m surprised your teacher would throw out the “just do it and then go to confession” approach- that’s probably one of Rome’s least favorite things. “Profaning the Holy Spirit” is what it’s generally called.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

My teacher did not throw that out, I pointed it out myself. It’s not ideal, at all.

There may be dozens of such sleepwalker murders on record, but even dozens, considering the millions of people on Earth, is almost infintesimally small, and of those cases of sleepwalker murders, in how many of them was it necessary to kill the sleepwalker to survive? I’d guess probably none.

 

[tjm190]

My teacher did not throw that out, I pointed it out myself. It’s not ideal, at all.

There may be dozens of such sleepwalker murders on record, but even dozens, considering the millions of people on Earth, is almost infintesimally small, and of those cases of sleepwalker murders, in how many of them was it necessary to kill the sleepwalker to survive? I’d guess probably none.

Many of the sleepwalkers were armed with guns- no less dangerous then a gun wielding home invader. If it is sometimes necessary to kill that home invader, it is quite possible that it would have been necessary to kill the sleepwalker.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Many of the sleepwalkers were armed with guns- no less dangerous then a gun wielding home invader. If it is sometimes necessary to kill that home invader, it is quite possible that it would have been necessary to kill the sleepwalker.

I don’t buy it.

And once again “dozens of cases” is an incredibly small amount.

 

[tjm190]

I don’t buy it.

And once again “dozens of cases” is an incredibly small amount.

You believe that sometimes it is necessary to kill an assailant, ya? The same logic applies, this one is just unaware of his actions. And you truly can’t just ‘wake them up’- many of these murders involve beating someone to death. Pinching them just isn’t gonna do it.

"Incredibly small’? I’m surprised there are any to be honest.