To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[ufamtobie]

Please don’t take this in a personal way, but I believe that Catholics do indeed worship Mary. The fact is that because of what they have been taught, they may not even realize it. To refer to someone other than Christ and say that the person is our life, our sweetness and our hope speaks volumes in my mind about the person whom they are referring to and even more so about what they are not saying about Christ himself.

Hi Napsack,

You did not finish all of the payer, so here it goes in its entirety: but first, read this before you read the Hail Holy Queen Prayer.

Napsack, Virgin Mary is The Mother of “Mercy” (Mercy is Jesus) Virgin Mary is the Mother of “Our Life” (Our Life is Jesus) Virgin Mary is the Mother of “Our Sweetness” (Our Sweetness is Jesus) Virgin Mary is Mother of “Our Hope” (Hope is Jesus)

Napsack, Now read the Hail Holy Queen

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our Life, our Sweetness, and our Hope. To Thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To Thee do we send up our sighs mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, Thine Eyes of Mercy toward us, and after this our exile show us the Blessed Fruit of thy Womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. Pray for us O Holy Mother of God That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Napsack, the Hail Holy Queen prayer, is us, telling Virgin Mary to HELP bring us CLOSER TO HER SON JESUS CHRIST that we may be made WORTHY of the PROMISES of CHRIST. WE DO NOT WORSHIP VIRGIN MARY.

Napsack, The Arch Angel Gabriel, was instructed by God to call Virgin Mary “HAIL MARY FULL of GRACE”

Napsack, is Gabriel and God WORSHIPING Virgin Mary for giving to her SUCH A HIGH Title “FULL of GRACE”? The Answer is NO! THEY ARE NOT WORSHIPING HER!

(Luke 2: 35) and You yourself (MARY) shall be pierced with a SWORD (ouch) So that the Thoughts of MANY HEARTS may be LAID BARE."

Simeon, inspired by the Holy Spirit said the Above Bible verse: Is Simeon also Worshiping Virgin Mary here? The Answer is NO!

Simeon, inspired by the Holy Spirit said that both Jesus and Mary WILL SUFFER for US ALL

Napsack, you must agree if Simeon were alive today he would definitely be CATHOLIC:thumbsup: Why? No one else says that Virgin Mary suffered for us, but us Catholics and of course Simeon oh yes the Holy Spirit As well.

Napsack, why did Virgin Mary ALSO Have to SUFFER for the Many?

The above questions is why the Catholic Church states that Virgin Mary is Co-Mediatrix with Jesus Christ For Virgin Mary said YES to give Birth To Jesus Christ and the FACT that Virgin Mary had to suffer for us as well.

Napsack, Jesus Christ came into this world to die for Us that we may be redeemed and to Establish His Church on earth, and it is Him that we Catholics Worship.

Now Immagine this, what if Virgin Mary said NO! I WILL NOT GIVE BIRTH TO THE LORD! We would not be redeemed and the GATES OF HELL WOULD OF PREVAILED OVER THE CHURCH, BEFORE IT BEGAN

Truth is the Old Adam and Eve did us WRONG

Truth is the New Adam(Jesus) and the New Eve(Virgin Mary) did us RIGHT

The Old Eve gave us the apple (sin).

The New Eve(Virgin Mary) gave us Jesus who is Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope. Amen

Just as Eve was Co conspirator with Adam unto our death

Virgin Mary is Co-Mediatrix with Jesus unto our Salvation.

Napsack, I don’t take this personally. Why? Because you have not been given the Grace to Understand, Plead to her who is Full of Grace, to pour upon you Grace that you may understand.

Ufam Tobie

 

[Napsack]

Hi Napsack,

You did not finish all of the payer, so here it goes in its entirety: but first, read this before you read the Hail Holy Queen Prayer.

Napsack, Virgin Mary is The Mother of “Mercy” (Mercy is Jesus) Virgin Mary is the Mother of “Our Life” (Our Life is Jesus) Virgin Mary is the Mother of “Our Sweetness” (Our Sweetness is Jesus) Virgin Mary is Mother of “Our Hope” (Hope is Jesus)

Napsack, Now read the Hail Holy Queen

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our Life, our Sweetness, and our Hope. To Thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To Thee do we send up our sighs mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, Thine Eyes of Mercy toward us, and after this our exile show us the Blessed Fruit of thy Womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. Pray for us O Holy Mother of God That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Napsack, the Hail Holy Queen prayer, is us, telling Virgin Mary to HELP bring us CLOSER TO HER SON JESUS CHRIST that we may be made WORTHY of the PROMISES of CHRIST. WE DO NOT WORSHIP VIRGIN MARY.

Napsack, The Arch Angel Gabriel, was instructed by God to call Virgin Mary “HAIL MARY FULL of GRACE”

Napsack, is Gabriel and God WORSHIPING Virgin Mary for giving to her SUCH A HIGH Title “FULL of GRACE”? The Answer is NO! THEY ARE NOT WORSHIPING HER!

(Luke 2: 35) and You yourself (MARY) shall be pierced with a SWORD (ouch) So that the Thoughts of MANY HEARTS may be LAID BARE."

Simeon, inspired by the Holy Spirit said the Above Bible verse: Is Simeon also Worshiping Virgin Mary here? The Answer is NO!

Simeon, inspired by the Holy Spirit said that both Jesus and Mary WILL SUFFER for US ALL

Napsack, you must agree if Simeon were alive today he would definitely be CATHOLIC:thumbsup: Why? No one else says that Virgin Mary suffered for us, but us Catholics and of course Simeon oh yes the Holy Spirit As well.

Napsack, why did Virgin Mary ALSO Have to SUFFER for the Many?

The above questions is why the Catholic Church states that Virgin Mary is Co-Mediatrix with Jesus Christ For Virgin Mary said YES to give Birth To Jesus Christ and the FACT that Virgin Mary had to suffer for us as well.

Napsack, Jesus Christ came into this world to die for Us that we may be redeemed and to Establish His Church on earth, and it is Him that we Catholics Worship.

Now Immagine this, what if Virgin Mary said NO! I WILL NOT GIVE BIRTH TO THE LORD! We would not be redeemed and the GATES OF HELL WOULD OF PREVAILED OVER THE CHURCH, BEFORE IT BEGAN

Truth is the Old Adam and Eve did us WRONG

Truth is the New Adam(Jesus) and the New Eve(Virgin Mary) did us RIGHT

The Old Eve gave us the apple (sin).

The New Eve(Virgin Mary) gave us Jesus who is Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope. Amen

Just as Eve was Co conspirator with Adam unto our death

Virgin Mary is Co-Mediatrix with Jesus unto our Salvation.

Napsack, I don’t take this personally. Why? Because you have not been given the Grace to Understand, Plead to her who is Full of Grace, to pour upon you Grace that you may understand.

Ufam Tobie

No offense here, but I will never plead to anyone for grace but God because he alone is the dispenser of grace. I cannot agree with any of this about Mary because the Bible tells us that only Jesus can save us. To say that Mary is comediatrix with Jesus is blasphemy to Christ. Sorry about that, but it is. Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life”. He alone is our hope. It is not Biblical to add all of these titles to Mary. I’m sorry that you don’t want to see this.

 

[CentralFLJames]

No offense here, but I will never plead to anyone for grace but God because he alone is the dispenser of grace. I cannot agree with any of this about Mary because the Bible tells us that only Jesus can save us. To say that Mary is comediatrix with Jesus is blasphemy to Christ. Sorry about that, but it is. Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life”. He alone is our hope. It is not Biblical to add all of these titles to Mary. I’m sorry that you don’t want to see this.

**
I will never plead to anyone for grace but God?**

Nor would catholics in that sense.

You clearly do not understand what it is Catholics do when we pray to the saints. When Catholics venerate and pray to saints they are asking those saints to PRAY FOR US TO GOD. You are human and do not have the ability to pray 24/7 like the saints do. Catholics just like to leverage our heavenly friends for favors to help us pray - things they are very happy to do for us since they are before God’s altar 24/7 and are 100% pleasing to God and perfected before God.

Now you might ask yourself are you being hypocritical in judging Catholics as being idol worshipers when we tell you plainly that we do not worship the saints? Don’t you think we would admit it if we did so our “false god” does not think we are wimps for denying him/her when pressed with a minor challenge?

Please - use some common sense. If you insist on judging Catholics here then Catholics would be well within their rights to say that you in making these absolute judgements are making yourself and your bible into an idol by thinking to judge as if judging through God’s eyes. This is a double hypocrisy for a Protestant since Protestants admit that God transcends all the limitations and distortions of the finite existence and every human claim to absolute truth or finality must be rejected. This was how your forefathers imagined they were justified in rejected papal authority - even though the bible shows that it is divinely given. Now that you imagine the infallable pope is out of the way you now want to make yourself infallable in both bible interpretation and divine judgement???

How ironic that bible-only Protestants by their own contradiction, both in theological error and in human practice (judgemental-ism), can never take themselves seriously without falling headlong into idolatry themselves. Don’t you just love how God makes it easy for Catholics to see heresy and error by using that error to self-italicise itself through a glaring contradiction of hypocrisy?

If Protestants admit that the tendency to absolutize the relative is universal then it becomes apparent that most all protestants, certainly a bible-only Protestant at his very first self-righteous pithy judgement both makes himself into an idol (in assuming himself infallable against his own stated claims to that) as well as the bible into an idol; the latter in thinking it speaks through his mind and lips as God. That my friend is what we call bibliolatry.

So, my friend, you need to be less judgemental and also come to understand what it is Catholics are doing. There is an economy of grace both in heaven and in earth. God does not waste precious grace and will dispense it to achieve its highest and best use. A person who is asking God for favors while he is not in a state of grace (a Protestant is at ultra high risk of being in mortal sin without a sacrament of confession) is simply NOT heard by God (ref. JOB ). The singular exception is unless he as a self admitted sinner is asking God for repentant grace and is actually forgiven by God without sacramental confession or that first baptism (but fat chance of being forgiven of sin if one pleading for mercy at the same time one is rejecting the Catholic Church too - which you are).

Outside of the Catholic mass (with reception of Eucharist) and Eucharistic Adoration, a saint in heaven pleading your case 24/7 before God is one of your best ways to gain grace since a saint by definition is in a perfect state of holiness and acceptance to God. Of course the highest grace available is achieved through the Catholic Mass when receiving the Eucharist while free from grave sin.

Bottom line venerating the saints and asking them to pray for us is highly efficacious and should be a major part of everyone’s salvation plan ( Phil 2:12 ‘…work out your salvation with fear and trembling’). **Praying to and venerating a saint is not asking the saint to give you grace rather it is asking the saint to PRAY for you TO GOD to give you grace. **

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Thanks for your reply, but I am still convinced that this is most certainly worship. Catholics apply many titles to Mary that cannot be supported by the Bible. In fact, the Bible shows a much different Mary than the Catholic church does. I’m very uncomfortable with the way Mary is elevated in the Catholic church. I would never sing songs in regard to Mary nor profess that Salvation can only be gotten through Mary.

Do you think you are speaking for God here Napsack? In the logical progression since Napsack says its Marian worship are we to infer that God must also say it is false worship of a creature too?

In fact the Bible confirms that the tiles roles Catholics extend to Mary are quite aprops. I can go give them to you if you like.

If you would not feel comfortable singing songs honoring Mary would you feel comfortable singing this song at the start of a Southern “Come to Jesus” Revival?
America:

My** country**, 'tis of thee,
**Sweet land **of liberty,
Of thee I sing;
Land where my fathers died,
Land of the pilgrims’ pride,
From every mountainside,
Let freedom ring!

My native country, thee,
Land of the noble free,
**Thy **name I love;
I love thy rocks and rills,
Thy woods and templed hills;
My heart with rapture thrills, (got yer rapture ticket bro?)
Like that above.

Let music swell the breeze,
And ring from all the trees
Sweet freedom’s song;
Let mortal tongues awake;
Let all that breathe partake;
Let rocks their silence break,
The sound prolong.

Our father’s God to Thee, (we finally got to God - yeah)
Author of liberty,
To Thee we sing.
Long may our land be bright,
With freedom’s holy light, *(freedom and patriotism as a religion???) *
Protect us by Thy might,
Great God our King. (except when we liked Henry VIII better)

Our joyful hearts today,
Their grateful tribute pay,
Happy and free,
After our toils and fears,
After our blood and tears,
Strong with our hundred years,
O God, to Thee.

We love thine inland seas,
Thy groves and giant trees,
Thy rolling plains;
Thy rivers’ mighty sweep,
Thy mystic canyons deep,
Thy mountains wild and steep,–
All thy domains. (is this not worship of a treated thing??)

Thy silver Eastern strands,
Thy Golden Gate that stands
Fronting the West;
Thy flowery Southland fair,
Thy North’s sweet, crystal air:
**O Land beyond compare,
We love thee best! ** {we love the land more than God!!?}

Sure sounds like worshiping land, and created things to me…

BTW - it was written by Samuel Francis Smith - a Protestant BAPTIST!

James

 

[ufamtobie]

No offense here, but I will never plead to anyone for grace but God because he alone is the dispenser of grace. I cannot agree with any of this about Mary because the Bible tells us that only Jesus can save us. To say that Mary is comediatrix with Jesus is blasphemy to Christ. Sorry about that, but it is. Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life”. He alone is our hope. It is not Biblical to add all of these titles to Mary. I’m sorry that you don’t want to see this.

Napsack,

Like I said before, you have not been given this Grace to know or understand the Truth this why you believe that we worship Virgin Mary.

Yes, Virgin Mary Can dispense Graces Through Jesus Christ! For Virgin Mary is “Full of Grace” Did Not Jesus say that we must Share with one another the Gifts that we been given, so yes, Virgin Mary can dispense Grace to us

Napsack, you did not answer my question to you about Why did Virgin Mary have to SUFFER a SWORD THROUGH her Immaculate Heart for us? Why?

Ufam Tobie

 

[Cathy]

Have you looked into some of the articles from This Rock, etc, available at this web site?

As a former Protestant, Mary was my biggest hurdle. As is shown earlier in this thread, different definitions of what “worship” is are also confusing. It means different things not only to Protestants and Catholics, but in different contexts for each.

Also, I noticed that Catholics tend to use the term “adoration” for what Protestants call “devotion,” and vice versa, further confusing the issue.

But I don’t think you really have to sort through all the various definitions before you go to the Biblical background for the Catholic view of Mary. The references are many and, to me, very convincing. But I have to confess, I could see the logic before I could accept it in my heart. My prejudice toward Catholic teaching on Mary and the saints ran deep until I finally, in imitation of Christ, gave myself completely into Mary’s care.

 

[Leeann]

CradleRC
Now as to the topic at hand, let’s admit and stipulate that SOME Catholics, particularly Europeans do WORSHIP MARY. At least that is what they call it. Of course, this is a serious error on their fault since God said “…you shall not bow down or worship them.” (Exodus 19:5 NAB)

Thank you CradleRC….SOME do.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Non-Catholics it is beneficial to examine the many scriptural underpinnings of Catholic Marian veneration to appreciate the depth of Catholic spirituality. Without the benefit of a handed down apostolic faith one must put aside denominational blinders and biases and let the Holy Spirit enlighten you. But once you “get it” the bible really comes alive and visible in a new way - in fact in the same way Mary revealed Jesus to humanity when she birthed Him.
Mary in Scripture:

Catholics recognize Mary as the Blessed Mother of God and the “Gebirah” (Hebrew - “Great Lady” or Queen Mother of The King in the OT Davidic Kingdom). In the OT times the mother of the King of Israel held an honorary office and was extended great respect, awe and devotion as advocate or intercessor. Then as now Queen Mother also brings His Word (now literally “The Word Became Flesh”) to the kingdom people as the message they are to live by and directs them to honor and worship Him; “to do as He says,” for He is God “the Son of Whom God the Father is well pleased”.

The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God

• Gen. 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”).
• Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.
• John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation - her seed crushes the serpent’s skull.
• Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin will bear a Son, Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.
• Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus (but also honoring Mary in her role).
• Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).
• Luke 1:28 - “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” The words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.
• Luke 1:28 - note the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.
• Luke 1:38 - Mary’s fiat is “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.
• Luke 1:42 - “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” (blessed even higher than Eve who also was originally created sinless but fell)." Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone).** We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus**. Catholics repeat Elizabeth’s inspired words in the Rosary.
• Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth’s use of “Mother of my Lord” is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God” which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (not just the Mother of Jesus’ human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).
• Luke 1:44 - Mary’s voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor!
• Luke 1:46 - Mary’s soul “magnifies the Lord”. Her bold statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother & intercessor, also magnifies our prayers!.
• Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary” prayer. How many Protestant Church have existed for generations & call Mary blessed with special devotional (none)? Protestants because they do not venerate Mary as blessed among all women do not receive Mary’s magnification of their prayers. No, these prayers lacking the incense of her perfect grace must stand on their own imperfect merits according to their own imperfect inner sanctification - substantially less than “full of grace”.

There is SO MUCH MORE. The following is a must read for Protestants who want to understand the biblical passages behind Catholic veneration of Mary:
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

Another good book is here:Hail Holy Queen (By Scott Hahn)

No one with an open mind, heart & intellect with any familiarity of the Bible (both OT and NT) can remain a doubter after reading the “Scripture Catholic” references and explanations. Clearly Mary has an ongoing unique role as “Blessed above all Women” - a “magnifying” role as Queen Mother intercessor.

As a Catholic I previously accepted Marian teaching at a superficial level. I was later ASTONISHED to be awoken to the profound depth of Marian spirituality interwoven through scripture. Through Mary God infuses His grace into a holistic bible message; God weaves her like a love song or golden thread to knit a seamless OT & NT garment. It is through divine grace manifest in Mary that God breathes the Living Word of God Made Flesh into our midst. Mary is thus God’s manifest burning Wisdom, the same burning bush, by which the invisible God appears to us In The Flesh.

James

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I see a lot of comments about "some Catholics worshipping Mary’.

Please, I would like to see documented proof of this.
Where are the statements from the ‘accused’ that acknowledge that they worship Mary?

Or are these comments the suppositions and unsupported assertions of those who only THINK that 'some Catholics worship Mary?"

The last I knew, one was innocent until proven guilty when it came to being charged with an offense.

So I demand that those who make the statement of "some Catholics worship Mary’ BACK IT UP or TAKE IT BACK.

You can say all you want that ‘you think’ some do, or it ‘looks like it to you’. (And Lord knows some of you do.)

But if you want to say that ‘it’s a fact’. . .prove it.

 

[Soutane]

Thank you CradleRC….SOME do.

Some MAY.It is up to you to PROVE that they do.

I demonstrated in an earlier post that a small group of ancient nuns quite recently were EXCOMMUNICATED for the equivalent of Mary worship.

If any Catholic worships Mary and it is brought to the attention of that person’s Bishop,they will be counselled and ultimately will be EXCOMMUNICATED if they fail to recant.Ergo they are NO LONGER MEMBERS OF CHRIST’S CHURCH.

 

[Soutane]

I have resolved for myself that this will be my own Marian Year and I ask my fellow Catholics to join me is reciting the Rosary as often as time will allow. If you do not have a rosary, go to your religious store, get the kit, and consider making one for yourself. Or you can go to Wal-Mart, for instance, and purchase a crucifx, beads, wire, and the plyers. It really makes a great hobby.
Now as to the topic at hand, let’s admit and stipulate that SOME Catholics, particularly Europeans do WORSHIP MARY. At least that is what they call it. Of course, this is a serious error on their fault since God said “…you shall not bow down or worship them.” (Exodus 19:5 NAB)
That being said, let me ask a very pertinent question: What significance did Mary play in the story of Salvation? We all know the story in Luke of how the Archangel Gabriel greeted Mary. “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” (Luke 1:28 NAB). In greeting her visiting cousin Mary, Elizabeth cried out “Most blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb (Jesus)” Luke 1:42 NAB). Since “The Spirit of the Most HIgh will overshadow you … the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God”. (loc cit.), Mary herself is holy, set aside by the Father for the Son. You can read the rest for yourself.
Mary leads us to her Son. At the wedding feast of Canaan (John 2:5 NAB), Mary tells the servants “Do whatever He tells you.” In prayer, the Blessed Mother, our mother (see John 19:26 "When Jesus saw His mother (our mother since Jesus is our Brother as well as our Saviour), He said “Woman, behold your son…”
One more thing. James 5:16 says “…the prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.” In other translations, the quote is “…the prayers of a righteous person avails much.”
People, other than Christ Himself, who is more righteous than our Blessed Mother who sits as the Queen of Heaven before the Prince of Peace? Certainly we can and should pray to Jesus Christ our Saviour. Don’t we write letters to our personal friends? But who prays more fervently and perfectly than the Mother of God, who heart was pierced by sword for her Son (Luke 3:35 NAB). I will end here. “Pray for us, sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.”

Thanks for SMEARING Europeans.PROVE your allegation.Show me ONE devout,practising European Catholic who thinks that Mary is God.

By the way I have processed behind a statue of Our Lady of Mount Carmel on her Feast Day praying the rosary in English and Italian and if ANYONE had accused me of Mary worship I would have (hopefully)figuratively punched them in the nose.You CANNOT worship someone accidentally or unintentionally.

 

[CentralFLJames]

…
You CANNOT worship someone accidentally or unintentionally.

I agree - but in an additional sense that you might not have considered.

There is always a flip-side to hypocrisy that self-condems. Those non-Catholics who make the unjust and ignorant charge that Catholics worship Mary need to point the finger at themselves to see where they fall short of the mark.

Since non-Catholics calling themselves “Christians” lack either a valid priesthood or else any real liturgy whatsoever they can’t even properly worship God in Spirit and Truth. The only form of worship fully pleasing and acceptable to God is the re-remembrance (re-presentation) of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross (e.g. ‘do this in memory of me’). So, ironically, those who accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary completely miss the mark and then go on to “lose the bubble” entirely on what is in fact acceptable sacrifice to God.

The lesson of Cain and Abel should make us wonder if a few hallelujahs, bible readings and gospel songs to happy clapping and foot stomping that is bereft of a liturgy or a valid apostolic priesthood is even in the ballpark of what God finds acceptable and pleasing to Himself. Catholics know that only the perfect sacrifice of Christ and its remembrance (as commanded) is what is pleasing to God. So it should be no surprise that those who don’t even properly worship God through a real liturgy and priesthood might imagine Catholic veneration of Mary is worship; afterall what Catholics do for venerating Mary far exceeds what Non-Catholics do to worship God!

"One certainly can not worship something by accident" but I want to add “…not even if the intentions are all there but the worship is not accepted due to incompetent and unacceptable form and lack of divine authority”. A priesthood is necessary. It really begs the question - “Do Protestants even venerate God”?

I am really beginning to think our detractors here in the same pattern of Cain are just jealous that Catholic venerations of Mary far exceed what they lack in suitable worship of God. The real problem is that the contrast in quality of worship and veneration makes non-Catholics feel and look insecure and grossly inadequate; and frankly that kind of self-assessment is deserved when they judge Catholics as Mary Worshippers and should give them the occasion to wake up and smell the roses.

Somehow these verses seem apropos here:
John 4:22-26:

“You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the **true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. **24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Genesis 4:5
…**but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard **So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.

Luke 22:19-20
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

John 6:53-58
53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58"This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”…

63"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

James

 

[David47]

tatum ergo

I see a lot of comments about "some Catholics worshipping Mary’.

Please, I would like to see documented proof of this.
Where are the statements from the ‘accused’ that acknowledge that they worship Mary?

Or are these comments the suppositions and unsupported assertions of those who only THINK that 'some Catholics worship Mary?"

The last I knew, one was innocent until proven guilty when it came to being charged with an offense.

So I demand that those who make the statement of "some Catholics worship Mary’ BACK IT UP or TAKE IT BACK.

You can say all you want that ‘you think’ some do, or it ‘looks like it to you’. (And Lord knows some of you do.)

But if you want to say that ‘it’s a fact’. . .prove it.

PLEASE by your own assertions, not just yours Tatum, but many if not all catholics would know that if anyone admitted to worshipping mary they would be excommunicated, in other words thrown out of the catholic church. Is that correct? And ALL catholics would or should know this? However there have been posts here by (some) catholics and protestants that they know or have the perception that indeed some catholics ( world wide perhaps not in US) in fact do worship mary.
This is seems to be a large hurdle for many or we would not see the question asked

]To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

To be asked to prove it would be a futile exercise as no one is going to say that “HEY GUESS WHAT I WORSHIP MARY” because if they do they are out. Is any catholic going to risk that? So there you have it no one is going to admit it, however the perception is still out there.
My question is what are you going to do about it other than to say WE DONT WORSHIP MARY–PROVE THAT WE DO
Really its not an answer
Again I will repeat the PERCEPTION is out there both some catholics and protestants.
SO demand all you want you are never going to know because no one will admit it.
BUT the perception is still there-------its a very dangerous thing perception, it has a tremendous effect just ask any polititian or businessman it can change the world.

Yours in Christ
David

 

[Soutane]

“I am really beginning to think our detractors here in the same pattern of Cain are just jealous that Catholic venerations of Mary far exceed what they lack in suitable worship of God. The real problem is that the contrast in quality of worship and veneration makes non-Catholics feel and look insecure and grossly inadequate; and frankly that kind of self-assessment is deserved when they judge Catholics as Mary Worshippers and should give them the occasion to wake up and smell the roses.”

James,thank you so much for this perspective that had never occured to me before.As Catholics we are privy to,and present at, and contributing to,the ultimate act of worship,obedience and piety weekly if not with greater frequency-The Eucharist-the mass.

At the consecration this Sunday I wished that I could prostrate myself,flat on the floor as kneeling and deep inclination of the head seem so inadequate in the literal presence of God Himself.

Mere prayer,like the rosary and novenas and morning and evening prayers seem so minimal and babyish’or two-dimensional in comparison to the mass or the Adoration.As I can’t be always before the True Presence I CONSOLE myself with prayer.Prayer is nothing compared to the WORSHIP of the mass where we are literally at,simultaneously,the Last Supper,the Passion and Crucifixtion and the Wedding Feast in Heaven.

My Parish Priest told me what a Muslim acquaintance shared with him.He stated that if he truly believed that God was literally present in the host he would crawl on his hands and knees to the altar to worship Him.

James,again,thank you,thank you,thank you.

 

[Soutane]

PLEASE by your own assertions, not just yours Tatum, but many if not all catholics would know that if anyone admitted to worshipping mary they would be excommunicated, in other words thrown out of the catholic church. Is that correct? And ALL catholics would or should know this? However there have been posts here by (some) catholics and protestants that they know or have the perception that indeed some catholics ( world wide perhaps not in US) in fact do worship mary.
This is seems to be a large hurdle for many or we would not see the question asked

]To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

To be asked to prove it would be a futile exercise as no one is going to say that “HEY GUESS WHAT I WORSHIP MARY” because if they do they are out. Is any catholic going to risk that? So there you have it no one is going to admit it, however the perception is still out there.
My question is what are you going to do about it other than to say WE DONT WORSHIP MARY–PROVE THAT WE DO
Really its not an answer
Again I will repeat the PERCEPTION is out there both some catholics and protestants.
SO demand all you want you are never going to know because no one will admit it.
BUT the perception is still there-------its a very dangerous thing perception, it has a tremendous effect just ask any polititian or businessman it can change the world.

Yours in Christ
David

I have the perception that non-Catholic Christians handle snakes and drink turpentine…or worship the Bible
.According to your logic each Protestant must prove to me that they do not.
Do you David?I mean I suspect you’ll SAY you don’t but maybe you won’t admit it because you’ll be too embarassed(and you’ll be OUT),so I guess no matter what you say,I’ll always suspect that you DO and you know how important MY perception is.So come clean David.

Ahem…I’m waiting.

 

[Soutane]

PLEASE by your own assertions, not just yours Tatum, but many if not all catholics would know that if anyone admitted to worshipping mary they would be excommunicated, in other words thrown out of the catholic church. Is that correct? And ALL catholics would or should know this? However there have been posts here by (some) catholics and protestants that they know or have the perception that indeed some catholics ( world wide perhaps not in US) in fact do worship mary.
This is seems to be a large hurdle for many or we would not see the question asked

]To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

To be asked to prove it would be a futile exercise as no one is going to say that “HEY GUESS WHAT I WORSHIP MARY” because if they do they are out. Is any catholic going to risk that? So there you have it no one is going to admit it, however the perception is still out there.
My question is what are you going to do about it other than to say WE DONT WORSHIP MARY–PROVE THAT WE DO
Really its not an answer
Again I will repeat the PERCEPTION is out there both some catholics and protestants.
SO demand all you want you are never going to know because no one will admit it.
BUT the perception is still there-------its a very dangerous thing perception, it has a tremendous effect just ask any polititian or businessman it can change the world.

Yours in Christ
David

And by the way we are NOT here to prove our sincerity to you,only God,so in the greater scheme of things what you think is of little import.We have charitably informed you as to the Truth if you choose NOT to accept what we say-it is YOUR loss,not ours.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

David:

Since when does a ‘perception’ change truth into falsehood?

No, Catholics are not about to change their teachings because some people have false perceptions about them.

Another poster had an interesting challenge for you about snake handling. . .(and you know, there really is a small group of Christians out there who do handle snakes as part of their worship.) See here:
]

Snake handling churches:
Alabama

• Rock House Holiness Church on Sand Mountain in the rural northeast
  South Carolina
• Holiness Church of God in Jesus Name, Greenville
  **West Virginia
  **
• Church of the Lord Jesus, Jolo

These are obviously the ones who admit it. But since they claim they’re following the Bible, and you as a Protestant claim you do too, then you must handle snakes,but you won’t admit it.

Hey, it’s my perception. And we can even show groups who ‘really’ do this, and admit it, while with the exception of some women in Canada (who were excommunicated) you can’t even show any Catholic who claims to worship Mary.

Now, what are you going to do about my perception about you Protestants? Because the more you tell me that you don’t handle snakes, the more convinced I’m going to be that you’re lying.

 

[David47]

soutane

I have the perception that non-Catholic Christians handle snakes and drink turpentine…or worship the Bible
.According to your logic each Protestant must prove to me that they do not.
Do you David?I mean I suspect you’ll SAY you don’t but maybe you won’t admit it because you’ll be too embarassed(and you’ll be OUT),so I guess no matter what you say,I’ll always suspect that you DO and you know how important MY perception is.So come clean David.

Ahem…I’m waiting.

Are we speaking figuratively here?
Well I guess you got me I have handled snakes, but not the turpentine though. Do some catholics think this? Is it on a website or forum I would like to address it, if it is it must be very signifigant. However I have not seen that any where, can you give me the site.
The above was sarcasm.
REALLY soutane you seem very bright, I am not taking a shot at your faith or what you believe. That is between you and the Lord. I really want to learn but if you continue with your junk it doesnt help me or any one else who reads this “****” as you have said before . It doesnt solve anything. The perception is NOT mine alone as you well know. I have tried to find out what this is all about.
You have not helped me in this perception and all the lurkers as well. You do know what lurkers are I hope? If not I will explain, they are ones who read these posts who will not post but prefer to read what others have said, and gather information and form ( AGAIN ) a perception. And again I say there is no proof for or against BECAUSE it is a perception, and that is what has to be addressed. And yes it appears to be wide spread with some catholics as well.
You may answer that you dont care, but I do and MY faith in CHRIST says that he cares too.
These are the lost souls that I spoke of in earlier posts that I have made.
I mean this sincerly I love you and you know that Christ does also.
Try not to be so recalcitrant

Yours in Christ
David

 

[Tantum_ergo]

David: I posted some info: You can check it, it was on Wikipedia, about snake handling churches.

So come on.

What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

A ‘false perception’ by some regarding Catholics is making you ‘concerned’ for ‘lurkers’ because, oh dear me, if they even ‘think’ Catholics could worship Mary, what a catastrophe. Far better that Catholics immediately pull back from anything that might be ‘perceived’ (however FALSELY) by anyone.

IOW. . .Even though Catholics are not doing anything wrong, they should be aware that what they do might ‘appear’ to be wrong to some. . .so they shouldn’t do it.

Or are you still going to tell us that because Mr. Jones in Peoria is sure that “them Cat-licks worship Mary, look at all them statues they have full of gold paint and they bow down in front of them”, then by gosh and golly, all us Catholics should get rid of any statues, and forget about doing anything that Mr. Jones thinks is “Mary worship”?

 

[CentralFLJames]

I want to inject the observation that there is a huge difference between “appearance” and willful promulgation of lies and propeganda through hysteria and hyperbola.

There were deliberate attempts of various anti-Catholic groups (KKK and their fundamentalist protestant churches and Jack Chic type publications) that just spewed all manner of falsehoods about Catholics worshiping Mary for no other reason than pure propaganda, hatred and contempt. An honest misperception formed by actual observation is one thing that can easily be remedied with rational dialog. But propagating a lie, calumny and falsehood is quite another since it appeals to emotion and demagogic weakness of character for no other reason than to obscure the truth and these sort of ill-formed minds are harder to reason with to correct the lie.

Jame