To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[AshleyBelle]

I also think it is very off base to say that Catholics who are not educated “might” be worshipping Mary because they don’t know any better.

Following the “little way” of St. Therese of the Child Jesus, I think it is important to humble ourselves and become as little Children in our faith and love for Jesus. I look at my own children and their great love for Jesus and the entire Holy Family. There is nothing but pure and beautiful faith in my son’s eyes when we pray the Hail Mary together, or when I teach Him about Jesus and His mother. My son knows, even though He is only 4, that we do not worship Mary. But in His beautiful, childlike faith, I also see that He truly understands how we are to love Mary.

I learn more from my children than from even the greatest scholar! What a blessing they are from our Lord!

God bless

 

[1234]

It would be good to remember that when Paul was speaking and writing he had no idea that what he was writing would become major inspired works in the NT. No apostle had any idea that there would be a “Bible”. Paul and the others mostly thought that Jesus’ return was imminent – before they died. Also, Mary was still alive and under the care of St. John. Her heavenly role is only opened up to our knowledge after she dies and John writes the last book of the NT - Book of Revelation. It is not till the Bible is put together into a formal canon in 382 AD that early Catholic scholars and apologetics and theologian really start to systematically study the OT and NT scripture and discern the larger Marian role from the fullness of what God has revealed to us. There is still probably one more formal Catholic Marian dogma yet to be infallibly proclaimed by the pope for the faithful in fact. Everything is rapidly coming together now and Jesus is still very much active and at work in His Church.

This is a very important time in history we live in and Mary as both Queen Mother and new Eve still has a large role to play to restore ancient wrongs.

James

We have no idea when Mary died.

As a woman of her time, she probably did not live very long after Jesus died. She probably wasn’t martyred, as it may have been noted in the epistles. The fact that she disappears from history after the gospels were written, the earliest at least 30 years after Jesus’ death, and isn’t mentioned in the epistles suggests that the early Christians did not think that her role as Jesus’ mother or her death was very important.

 

[1234]

Again, we have ‘perceptions’ and accusations against first “some Catholics” and now we have somebody who has decided to tar and feather ‘Hispanics’ as idolators, complete with a ‘supposed’ quote.

And of course, they’re ‘uneducated’. Too ‘stupid’ to know the difference between ‘veneration’ and ‘worship’.

I don’t think I’m the only person to be, to put it as charitably as possible, disgusted with the blatant bias of 1234.

Ad hominems, baseless accusations, intellectual snobbery, and unfounded assertions all wrapped up into an indictment of those ‘stupid RCs’.

I had wondered how long it would take before the thread deteriorated from actual questioning of Catholic practices (which were well defended) into the typical ‘Catholics are uneducated fools’ that is the inevitable ‘fall back’ position that anti-Catholics must resort to when their ‘reasoned’ arguments are defeated.

I guess I have my ‘answer’, sad to say.

I’m not tarring and feathering anyone. It is a fact that most Catholics WORLD-WIDE who attend church regularly are not well-educated. And most of these Catholics don’t study theology or worry about the fine–very fine–distinctions between *latria *and hyperdulia. Go to some local parishes and see who is attending Mass and lighting candles in front of Mary’s statue(s). Most Catholic Europeans who are almost all highly educated like the general population, seldom attend Mass, if at all. And in Asia and India, very few people are well-educated!

I don’t blame Hispanics for making OL of Guadalupe a symbol of their religion. Most Hispanics don’t study theology either (who does, outside of seminaries?)-- but they pray to whomever gets results, and if it’s the Guad, so be it. If that isn’t worship, I don’t know what is.

I find the lengthy arguments, quotes, Latin, etc. on this thread very revealing. If it were evident that Catholics don’t worship the Virgin, it would be obvious. Lutherans don’t worship Luther. Anglicans don’t worship Cranmer. Jews don’t worship Moses. Muslims may defend Mohammed mightily, but they don’t worship him.

And of course, people are “biased”–ie., have opinions counter to yours, on this forum and this thread. This is the *Non-Catholic *forum. If we agreed with the RCC, we’d join it. if we didn’t care, we wouldn’t be posting here.

 

[AshleyBelle]

1234,

Do you think a little child needs to be educated and understand the latin differences between dulia and hyper dulia in order to love Mary without giving her the worship that is due to God alone?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It is a fact that most Catholics WORLD-WIDE who attend church regularly are not well-educated

First, show me proof that this is so, and then, show me that proof that demonstrates that a ‘good education’ (and exactly what that is, again by documentation) is a requirement for a Catholic to understand the difference between worship of God and ‘worship’ (so-called) of Mary.

Again, would you mind letting us know your qualifications for your ‘assessment’ of Hispanics besides your personal opinion? Surely you have documents to back up your statements? You know the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that your ‘facts’ are facts.

With respect, your statement, “If that’s not worship I don’t know what is” pretty much sums up the fatal flaw of your posts. It is (again, with respect) quite obvious that you do not know what worship is if you accuse Catholics of worship of the Blessed Virgin).

 

[wisdomseeker]

We have no idea when Mary died.

As a woman of her time, she probably did not live very long after Jesus died. She probably wasn’t martyred, as it may have been noted in the epistles. The fact that she disappears from history after the gospels were written, the earliest at least 30 years after Jesus’ death, and isn’t mentioned in the epistles suggests that the early Christians did not think that her role as Jesus’ mother or her death was very important.

how dare you make such a statement. how dare you say that the Mother of God, our Mother is not important. how dare you openly offended the one who suffered so dearly at the death of a son. how dare you.

that is the kind of protestants who go around with the Bible under their arms pretending they understand what is in it.

your may go around using the Bible distorting the Word of God so as to blind the unlearned. but you will never remember where you got it from. because you are too blind to even remember a simple thing is that.

if Jesus want us to have just the Bible, all he had to do was to get one person, one writer. but instead He told us about a Church that He is going to build. and He chose 12 men. to teach and be leaders of the Church. you now think that you are greater than the Apostles and the people of that time because you now have the Book that the faithfull of God put it together. examine yourself first before opening your mouth to blasphemy against our holy Mother.

:knight2: :knight2:

 

[Tantum_ergo]

1234 identifies himself/herself as “UU” which COULD be ‘unitarian universalist’. I’m not sure he/she identifies himself/herself as being Christian.

 

[ron77nyc]

Protestants,

The Truth is that nowhere in Catholic literature or in Catholic History since Pentacost to this day will you ever find a document which directs Catholics to WORSHIP Mary. You will, however, find many documents which say we VENERATE her.

Through the Grace of God, I have been a Catholic 44 years and Counting and I have many family members and friends also who are strong Catholics never once have we Worshiped Virgin Mary

Protestants, show me this document/teaching of the Church that tell us Catholics that we should worship Mary?

44 years being Catholic, I never came across this Teaching of the Church.

Truth is you can’t find this Document/Teaching it does not exist and since it does not Exist, you will Never find it! Case Closed!
Ufamtobie

The Catholic Church never taught people to worship Mary but it never stopped people from doing it. This idea of Mary being more merciful than Jesus was prevalent in the Church for centuries. Here are some examples:

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_n34_v33/ai_19633321/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1
"Later medieval thought places Mary in heaven, distributing the fruits of Christ’s redemption to unworthy sinner. (In Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel ceiling, we find Mary, standing under Christ’s threatening raised right arm, pleading on behalf of other mortals.)"

eucharisticlife.org/queenship_mary.html
These quotes are from this website:
“Would it be bordering on the heretical to say, that as Christ first came into the world physically in, of and through the womb of Mary and by her will, that He permits himself to be spiritually and mysteriously reborn in every Mass only in, of and through Mary and by her will?” John Cardinal O’Connor (1920 - 2000 A.D.)

“We can only go to Him through her. The more we love the Eucharist, the more we must love Mary.” St. Peter Julian Eymard

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Even if there were a teaching regarding Mary as being ‘more merciful’. . .and I’m not saying there is, at least as you have presented it. . .until/unless you can present documented proof that this ‘teaching’ is authentic Catholic dogma/doctrine, and that the purpose of the teaching is to place Mary on an absolutely equal footing with the Trinity, then you don’t have a leg to stand on in accusing Catholics of ‘worshipping’ Mary.

 

[ron77nyc]

Even if there were a teaching regarding Mary as being ‘more merciful’. . .and I’m not saying there is, at least as you have presented it. . .until/unless you can present documented proof that this ‘teaching’ is authentic Catholic dogma/doctrine, and that the purpose of the teaching is to place Mary on an absolutely equal footing with the Trinity, then you don’t have a leg to stand on in accusing Catholics of ‘worshipping’ Mary.

It’s not authentic dogma. It’s unwritten tradition. It’s the same as those people who buy a statue of St. Joseph and bury it upside down in their backyard when they want to sell their house. They’re selling like hotcakes in the Catholic bookstores.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ron,
"Burying St. Joseph’ is reprobated SUPERSTITION.

It’s no more an ‘unwritten tradition’ or a legitimate ‘pious Catholic practice’ than I’m Mother Teresa.

 

[Soutane]

A lot of Catholics worship Mary. That may not be the intent of the RCC, but it is the result. Most of the Catholics in the world, the ones who go to church, are not well-educated. They don’t know veneration from worship. They don’t think about the mass when they go to mass. They pray the rosary, and pray to Mary about all their troubles. They pray to the other saints, too, depending on their favorites, and who appears to get the job done. They regard Mary as all-powerful, someone who can get anything from God. They don’t worship God so much as fear him. The type of ‘veneration’ of Mary in any other religion would be called worship. The theology doesn’t matter. It’s what actually takes place.

Hispanics in the southwest have a motto:“In Guad We Trust”.

That sums it up.

The above dreck is the most bigoted,false,and unChristian smear of any group of people I have ever read here at CA.If I made such an ill considered obviously prejudiced and bigoted statement about ANY group of people I would be tarred and feathered and would well deserve it.

You are bearing false witness against us and breaking a commandment.You should be ashamed of yourself and apologise forthwith.You disgust me.

 

[Soutane]

I don’t think 1234 said that at all.

You wouldn’t.It wasn’t your ox being gored.

 

[Soutane]

MARY AND ST. PAUL

One thing that always has troubled me is that St. Paul wrote so much of the New Testament, and his letters contain considerable theology and much more directed to the early Christian churches, yet he does not mention Mary even once! If Mary is supposed to be so central to our worship - as in the Rosary and elsewhere - why did he omit her completely?

  Apart from the nativity story and the crucifixion scene, Mary seems to play little role in the gospels. In fact, when she appears Jesus almost seems dismissive of her - as in Matthew 12:48, Luke 8:20-21. and John 2:4.

   We all should honor Mary as the mother of Christ. But those deep into Mariology usually carry it far beyond what the gospels suggest.

Prove this assertion or quit making generalized unsupported statements based upon your mistaken perceptions.

I think protestants carry Bible worship far beyond what scripture suggests.

Are you suggesting that Christ sinned by disrespecting his Mother?.Do ALL protestants believe this.You do,therefore you must ALL believe He sinned.Do ANY of you GET how STUPID it is to attack us over Christ’s mother when we can apply the same illogical reasoning and arguementation to any one of your specious and spurious unbiblical beliefs?

 

[Soutane]

I tend to agree here having read all the posts it has been very enlightening to some degree but still learning. I will have to study more. As I know some (catholics) that I know personaly seem over the top so to speak.

Yours in Christ

David

Some protestants that I know are "over-the-top"as well.Especially the ones who bark like dogs,roll around on the ground and are obviously suffering from self-induced hysteria when they "think"they’re being “slain in the spirit”.

Now,does what I posted bug you?Offend you?Hurt you?It should.It is patent,offensive,bigoted,claptrap and it’s based on malicious “perception”,caused by a pre-existing xenophobia or group-prejudice.

This is how we Catholics feel when we are cavalierly and unjustly attacked for our love of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

ESPECIALLY AFTER WE HAVE CHARITABLY CORRECTED YOUR MISPERCEPTION.

 

[Soutane]

We have no idea when Mary died.

As a woman of her time, she probably did not live very long after Jesus died. She probably wasn’t martyred, as it may have been noted in the epistles. The fact that she disappears from history after the gospels were written, the earliest at least 30 years after Jesus’ death, and isn’t mentioned in the epistles suggests that the early Christians did not think that her role as Jesus’ mother or her death was very important.

Because you subscribe to the thoroughly discredited notion of Sola Scriptura you are missing out on so much more.The Catholic Church did not come out of the Bible.Holy Scripture came out of the Church.For the first 300 years of the Catholic Church,the Faith was taught solely through the means of Holy Tradition.Holy Tradition(the teaching of the Apostle’s passed down orally and in writing) is the absolute equivalent of Holy Scripture and they do not conflict iin any way.As importantly Christ provided a guarantee of inerrancy in teaching to the Catholic Church preserving it from dogmatic error in the institution of the Magisterium.

Bearing all of the above in mind,do you see why we trust in our Church,the only one FOUNDED BY CHRIST rather than the fallible opinion of men which in itself has been thoroughly discredited by the sheer existance of over 33,000+(and counting)versions of faiths started by mere men?

I’ll take my Church over "probablies"any day.

 

[Soutane]

I’m not tarring and feathering anyone. It is a fact that most Catholics WORLD-WIDE who attend church regularly are not well-educated. And most of these Catholics don’t study theology or worry about the fine–very fine–distinctions between *latria *and hyperdulia. Go to some local parishes and see who is attending Mass and lighting candles in front of Mary’s statue(s). Most Catholic Europeans who are almost all highly educated like the general population, seldom attend Mass, if at all. And in Asia and India, very few people are well-educated!

I don’t blame Hispanics for making OL of Guadalupe a symbol of their religion. Most Hispanics don’t study theology either (who does, outside of seminaries?)-- but they pray to whomever gets results, and if it’s the Guad, so be it. If that isn’t worship, I don’t know what is.

I find the lengthy arguments, quotes, Latin, etc. on this thread very revealing. If it were evident that Catholics don’t worship the Virgin, it would be obvious. Lutherans don’t worship Luther. Anglicans don’t worship Cranmer. Jews don’t worship Moses. Muslims may defend Mohammed mightily, but they don’t worship him.

And of course, people are “biased”–ie., have opinions counter to yours, on this forum and this thread. This is the *Non-Catholic *forum. If we agreed with the RCC, we’d join it. if we didn’t care, we wouldn’t be posting here.

I am STUNNED by your ignorance and outright prejudice.Try making as sweeping a statement about Jews,women,Asians,or Africans and you would be absolutely villified.

Anti-Catholicism really IS the last acceptable prejudice.If my 14 year-old son ever said ANYTHING as woefully obtuse as you have in your post I would fear for him.

 

[Soutane]

The Catholic Church never taught people to worship Mary but it never stopped people from doing it. This idea of Mary being more merciful than Jesus was prevalent in the Church for centuries. Here are some examples:

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_n34_v33/ai_19633321/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1
"Later medieval thought places Mary in heaven, distributing the fruits of Christ’s redemption to unworthy sinner. (In Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel ceiling, we find Mary, standing under Christ’s threatening raised right arm, pleading on behalf of other mortals.)"

eucharisticlife.org/queenship_mary.html
These quotes are from this website:
“Would it be bordering on the heretical to say, that as Christ first came into the world physically in, of and through the womb of Mary and by her will, that He permits himself to be spiritually and mysteriously reborn in every Mass only in, of and through Mary and by her will?” John Cardinal O’Connor (1920 - 2000 A.D.)

“We can only go to Him through her. The more we love the Eucharist, the more we must love Mary.” St. Peter Julian Eymard

Then why were a group of misguided nuns in Canada excommunicated for doing so.Please do not muddy the water.

You know darned well that the above quotes are so esoteric and open to personal interpretation as to be less than compelling.Neither gentleman was infallible but obviously both were given to hyperbole and neither spoke FOR the Church.

 

[Soutane]

It’s not authentic dogma. It’s unwritten tradition. It’s the same as those people who buy a statue of St. Joseph and bury it upside down in their backyard when they want to sell their house. They’re selling like hotcakes in the Catholic bookstores.

Are you a Catholic?

 

[Soutane]

It’s not authentic dogma. It’s unwritten tradition. It’s the same as those people who buy a statue of St. Joseph and bury it upside down in their backyard when they want to sell their house. They’re selling like hotcakes in the Catholic bookstores.

Are you a Catholic?If you are then you know that superstition is CONDEMNED by the Church.

I once confronted a Catholic vendor about the presence of St Joseph house selling kits in his store and he stated that it was mostly non-Catholics and non-practising Catholics who bought them.He also stopped carrying them after I SHAMED him.