To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[nbtb1348]

No, you just confirmed what I already knew. My forcefulness is probably not very helpful for you when it comes to examining your own personal relationship with Christ. The nesxt time you watch a Billy Graham or a Rick Warren or a Tony Dungy or a Kurt Warner or a Tim Tebow or a Mike Huckabee or a Paul Azinger give glory to God, know that you are listening to someone who has found real Life through simple faith in the finished work of the cross…plus nothing. And the results are lives that are changed forever.
Peace

 

[nbtb1348]

Yikes … please wipe the spittle from your mouth …

Yeh, that was a mouthful in more ways than one!

 

[diggingdeeper]

Ron, we go to Jesus through St. Paul, we go to Jesus through each other. . . remember, we are all members of the Body. We don’t go to Jesus and ‘bypass’ all the other members of His body, do we? I think you are somehow thinking that Jesus is ‘separate’ from ‘the Body’, and that if one speaks of Mary or another saint, that one is ‘separating’ them from, and putting them in opposition to, Jesus.

St. Louis de Montfort spoke of “Jesus in Mary”. . .not as though Mary was the ‘greater’ and Jesus was ‘contained’, but rather that Jesus, like the sun, is reflected by Mary, the moon. The light of the sun is IN the light of the moon, isn’t it?

That is identically true of every believer!

 

[diggingdeeper]

No, you just confirmed what I already knew. My forcefulness is probably not very helpful for you when it comes to examining your own personal relationship with Christ. The nesxt time you watch a Billy Graham or a Rick Warren or a Tony Dungy or a Kurt Warner or a Tim Tebow or a Mike Huckabee or a Paul Azinger give glory to God, know that you are listening to someone who has found real Life through simple faith in the finished work of the cross…plus nothing. And the results are lives that are changed forever.
Peace

And what about Kirk Cameron and Mariano Rivera and Herm Edwards and Bill Hybels and Charles Stanley and Derrick Brooks and Warrick Dunn and…So many who have found that salvation is by faith apart from any works of the Law.

 

[codebilly]

No, you just confirmed what I already knew. My forcefulness is probably not very helpful for you when it comes to examining your own personal relationship with Christ. The nesxt time you watch a Billy Graham or a Rick Warren or a Tony Dungy or a Kurt Warner or a Tim Tebow or a Mike Huckabee or a Paul Azinger give glory to God, know that you are listening to someone who has found real Life through simple faith in the finished work of the cross…plus nothing. And the results are lives that are changed forever.
Peace

And that is fine. … Praise the Father for giving the gift of His Son to all.

However, if you study the history of salvation, you will find many flavors of kinship with Jesus Christ. You can start with the letters of Paul, John, and Peter.

Careful examination of their style of preaching reveals their relationship with Jesus.

In Peter and James, you find a slight emphasis on works. While in Paul, an emphasis is placed on knowledge of God. It is no coincidence that schools of Protestantism place so much emphasis on Paul, because so much emphasis is placed on study and scholarship.

But the Gospel of John and his letters reveal his emphasis of relationship with God is love. Only John witnessed Jesus on the Cross at the side of Mary, because Mary IS the embodiment of Loving Devotion to God.

There are no words necessary, nor can words capture, a mother’s love, for her Son. No words can describe her mood of worship, and her rapt, ecstatic, unbreakable Love for Jesus.

You can attack Catholic devotees with all manner of philosophical proofs derived from speculative connections you make from one verse to another in scripture, but these are all “clanging cymbals and gongs” which cannot penetrate the
contemplative gaze of Mary’s Love of God.

We desire only to be children, not learned in skillful arguments, but rather, only submissive, like the littlest ones, at the beck and call of Mary in the service of Her Son.

 

[nbtb1348]

Billy Graham has been used by God to lead more people to Christ than probably any other human being. Yet he is one of the most humble people I have ever listened to. The point is he is faithful to the biblical teaching that we are saved by grace through faith in what Christ did when He paid for ALL our sins on the cross.
Those other guys are preachers and pro sports people well known here, who hold to the same teacing on salvation. Rick Warren pastors one of the largest churches in the world in southern California. He delivered the invocation at Obama’s inauguration and has a goal to eradicate AIDS from the planet. And he has a huge vision to accomplish it. Here is one of his links:

thepeaceplan.com/

 

[Napsack]

It’s not that at all. I don’t think that is necessary. Does that mean I’m anti-Catholic? I’ve never done it that way. St. Paul says we can approach the throne of grace with freedom and confidence.

I understand that but what I don’t understand is this: Talking about Jesus and praying to God without an intermediary gets people agitated. Why is that?

Because it appears too non-Catholic and too sola-scriptura I guess.

 

[Napsack]

He doesn’t disrespect anyone throughout Scripture. You seem to be getting the cart in front of the horse here. Jesus is God; Mary is a human being, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Actually, talking to God and praying to Jesus doesn’t get Catholics agitated.

What appears to get Protestants agitated is the idea of praying to saints. I wonder why. It’s not only Scriptural, it’s Christian tradition that even Martin Luther approved.

Of course, I mean some Protestants, not all. Many of our brothers and sisters, especially in the Anglican and Lutheran faiths, pray to saints and have a devotion to Mary as ever-virgin and Queen of heaven, just like Martin Luther did.

 

[Napsack]

Actually, talking to God and praying to Jesus doesn’t get Catholics agitated.

What appears to get Protestants agitated is the idea of praying to saints. I wonder why. It’s not only Scriptural, it’s Christian tradition that even Martin Luther approved.

What’s the point? Myself being more blessed than Mary is also Scriptural.

 

[nbtb1348]

What’s the point? Myself being more blessed than Mary is also Scriptural.

Absolutely. There are many who will have a higher place in the kingdom than Mary. People who led many to Christ, people who prayed for years and years for the success of missionaries on China, where today there are over 30 million born again people who meet in tiny house churches there.

If you want to pray to a saint (which I do NOT recommend), pray to Dawson Trotman. He is responsible for an amazing number of saints being in the kingdom right now. And of course he would rightly tell you all glory goes to Jesus!

 

[Roy5]

SOME QUESTIONS THAT TROUBLE ME RE MARY

1. All Christians honor Mary, of course. The only issue, I suggest, is when does honor cross into worship. It seems to me that many, probably most, Catholics actually do worship her even if that is not the teaching of the Church. There also seem to be those within the Church who see her as a co-redeemer with Christ. This troubles me.

 2. Take the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, pronounced in 1854. This means that Mary is the only human being born without original sin. Set aside the issue of original sin for a moment (I have a problem with that, frankly - it seems so unfair to saddle innocent babies with that at their birth, guilty already). Anyway, why is it important that Mary was born without original sin? That strikes me as a way of setting her off for special adoration, etc. By the way, who was her mother? I don't find any reference to a St. Ann in the Bible, and I even recall that the Catholic Encyclopedia isn't very emphatic on the matter. But many churches are named for her, especially it seems among French-Canadians. (I come from such lineage.)

  3. Now, take the doctrine of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, proclaimed quite late - 1950. I wonder if that is another johnny-come-lately doctrine without foundation in scripture. My study shows that Mary wasn't adored as she is by many today until the 3rd century, even later. Was that borrowed from cults of the time, most of which had virgin goddesses?

  4. Okay. No one seems to explain why nowhere in the epistles of Paul is Mary even mentioned! Paul obviously was providing essential doctrinal guidance to early Christians. If Mary should have been given such a central place in Christian worship it seems that he would have at least mentioned her.

   5. Between the nativity and crucifixion sagas in the gospels, Mary seems to be mentioned in only two brief passages. On both occasions Jesus appears to me to treat her dismissively. Who is my mother? he asks. (Matt. 12:48 and Mark 3:33). Then, he turns to his disciples and says: "Here are my mother and my brothers." See also Luke 8:19-21. At the wedding in Cana, Jesus asks of her: "O woman, what have you to do with me?"  You must admit, strange statements by Christ

  By the way, as many of you probably know, there is more in the Koran about Mary than in the Bible. The Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, something millions of Christians doubt.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Have you entered in relationship with Jesus on this intimate level as did Teresa of Avila, Teresa the Little Flower, and St. John of the Cross?

Codebilly - aha! I thought I recognized your Carmelite spirituality brother. You just confirmed it.

Me to.

Ironically while Carmelite’s take deep inspiration from the examples of Mary and Elijah few outside the order understand that while Mary extends her mantle of maternal protection and its popularly mistaken to be devoted to Mary the contemplative prayer life is all fully Christ centered. No doubt this is precisely why the order has produced so many great saints, 3 Doctors of The Church (2 of the only 3 female ones) and has so many visionaries for its relatively small size compared to the larger religious orders.

James

 

[Napsack]

SOME QUESTIONS THAT TROUBLE ME RE MARY

1. All Christians honor Mary, of course. The only issue, I suggest, is when does honor cross into worship. It seems to me that many, probably most, Catholics actually do worship her even if that is not the teaching of the Church. There also seem to be those within the Church who see her as a co-redeemer with Christ. This troubles me.

 2. Take the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, pronounced in 1854. This means that Mary is the only human being born without original sin. Set aside the issue of original sin for a moment (I have a problem with that, frankly - it seems so unfair to saddle innocent babies with that at their birth, guilty already). Anyway, why is it important that Mary was born without original sin? That strikes me as a way of setting her off for special adoration, etc. By the way, who was her mother? I don't find any reference to a St. Ann in the Bible, and I even recall that the Catholic Encyclopedia isn't very emphatic on the matter. But many churches are named for her, especially it seems among French-Canadians. (I come from such lineage.)

  3. Now, take the doctrine of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, proclaimed quite late - 1950. I wonder if that is another johnny-come-lately doctrine without foundation in scripture. My study shows that Mary wasn't adored as she is by many today until the 3rd century, even later. Was that borrowed from cults of the time, most of which had virgin goddesses?

  4. Okay. No one seems to explain why nowhere in the epistles of Paul is Mary even mentioned! Paul obviously was providing essential doctrinal guidance to early Christians. If Mary should have been given such a central place in Christian worship it seems that he would have at least mentioned her.

   5. Between the nativity and crucifixion sagas in the gospels, Mary seems to be mentioned in only two brief passages. On both occasions Jesus appears to me to treat her dismissively. Who is my mother? he asks. (Matt. 12:48 and Mark 3:33). Then, he turns to his disciples and says: "Here are my mother and my brothers." See also Luke 8:19-21. At the wedding in Cana, Jesus asks of her: "O woman, what have you to do with me?"  You must admit, strange statements by Christ

  By the way, as many of you probably know, there is more in the Koran about Mary than in the Bible. The Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, something millions of Christians doubt.

This post makes more sense to me than anything that I have read here yet.

 

[diggingdeeper]

SOME QUESTIONS THAT TROUBLE ME RE MARY

1. All Christians honor Mary, of course. The only issue, I suggest, is when does honor cross into worship. It seems to me that many, probably most, Catholics actually do worship her even if that is not the teaching of the Church. There also seem to be those within the Church who see her as a co-redeemer with Christ. This troubles me.

 2. Take the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, pronounced in 1854. This means that Mary is the only human being born without original sin. Set aside the issue of original sin for a moment (I have a problem with that, frankly - it seems so unfair to saddle innocent babies with that at their birth, guilty already). Anyway, why is it important that Mary was born without original sin? That strikes me as a way of setting her off for special adoration, etc. By the way, who was her mother? I don't find any reference to a St. Ann in the Bible, and I even recall that the Catholic Encyclopedia isn't very emphatic on the matter. But many churches are named for her, especially it seems among French-Canadians. (I come from such lineage.)

  3. Now, take the doctrine of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, proclaimed quite late - 1950. I wonder if that is another johnny-come-lately doctrine without foundation in scripture. My study shows that Mary wasn't adored as she is by many today until the 3rd century, even later. Was that borrowed from cults of the time, most of which had virgin goddesses?

  4. Okay. No one seems to explain why nowhere in the epistles of Paul is Mary even mentioned! Paul obviously was providing essential doctrinal guidance to early Christians. If Mary should have been given such a central place in Christian worship it seems that he would have at least mentioned her.

   5. Between the nativity and crucifixion sagas in the gospels, Mary seems to be mentioned in only two brief passages. On both occasions Jesus appears to me to treat her dismissively. Who is my mother? he asks. (Matt. 12:48 and Mark 3:33). Then, he turns to his disciples and says: "Here are my mother and my brothers." See also Luke 8:19-21. At the wedding in Cana, Jesus asks of her: "O woman, what have you to do with me?"  You must admit, strange statements by Christ

  By the way, as many of you probably know, there is more in the Koran about Mary than in the Bible. The Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, something millions of Christians doubt.

You are hitting very close to home, Roy. So much of it is foreign not only to what is written in the Bible, but also to the ‘sprit’ of what is written and what we are to be about as those whose passion is to know Christ in ever deeper ways.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Absolutely. There are many who will have a higher place in the kingdom than Mary.

Now you see, this is strange. The same people who say that Catholics ‘make up things that aren’t Scriptural’ can make statements like this as though they were proven fact. Not an iota of proof exists for this assertion. Yet no protestant has as yet come forth to murmur. . . “Not that this is an authentic teaching verified by Scripture, but it’s what I THINK”.

No, it is stated boldly as though it were the 11th commandment.

And yet Catholics are the ones accused of ‘making up doctrine. . .’

 

[Napsack]

Now you see, this is strange. The same people who say that Catholics ‘make up things that aren’t Scriptural’ can make statements like this as though they were proven fact. Not an iota of proof exists for this assertion. Yet no protestant has as yet come forth to murmur. . . “Not that this is an authentic teaching verified by Scripture, but it’s what I THINK”.

No, it is stated boldly as though it were the 11th commandment.

And yet Catholics are the ones accused of ‘making up doctrine. . .’

I think you are mistaken here about that. Jesus said that even more blessed (than Mary) are those who will not see but yet believe.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Again, we get, “it seems to me that Catholics worship Mary” and we get also statements like “the Immaculate Conception was made in 1854” as though it had not existed in 1853 or before and then was ‘made up’ by Catholics. It’s like saying that in 1776 when John Adams wrote that Americans were entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that these ‘inalienable rights’ didn’t exist until July 2, 1776.

We get absolutely no proof that "The Catholic Church teaches their followers to worship Mary, see here in the Catechism it says blah, blah blah.’

No, we get statements like, “Of course they really worship her but that’s because they’re too stupid to realize they shouldn’t. They really worship her but they’re afraid to admit it. They really worship her and the reason we know it is because they get so ‘upset’ when people challenge them.”

If we insisted that Protestants worship the Bible and the proof that Protestants worshipped Bibles was that they insisted that they don’t–which is exactly the position that these charges are against Catholics–we would be quite rightly excoriated for being ignorant at best and dishonest at worst.

So. . .

Care to tell us Catholics how the insistence of so many Protestants that Catholics ‘worship Mary’ and it’s obvious because they get so upset and insist they don’t when Protestants keep saying yes they do–is any different from the above scenario that the same Protestants would contend was ignorant and dishonest??

 

[Napsack]

Again, we get, “it seems to me that Catholics worship Mary” and we get also statements like “the Immaculate Conception was made in 1854” as though it had not existed in 1853 or before and then was ‘made up’ by Catholics. It’s like saying that in 1776 when John Adams wrote that Americans were entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that these ‘inalienable rights’ didn’t exist until July 2, 1776.

We get absolutely no proof that "The Catholic Church teaches their followers to worship Mary, see here in the Catechism it says blah, blah blah.’

No, we get statements like, “Of course they really worship her but that’s because they’re too stupid to realize they shouldn’t. They really worship her but they’re afraid to admit it. They really worship her and the reason we know it is because they get so ‘upset’ when people challenge them.”

If we insisted that Protestants worship the Bible and the proof that Protestants worshipped Bibles was that they insisted that they don’t–which is exactly the position that these charges are against Catholics–we would be quite rightly excoriated for being ignorant at best and dishonest at worst.

So. . .

Care to tell us Catholics how the insistence of so many Protestants that Catholics ‘worship Mary’ and it’s obvious because they get so upset and insist they don’t when Protestants keep saying yes they do–is any different from the above scenario that the same Protestants would contend was ignorant and dishonest??

This kind of lashing out is ridiculous. People like me come to converse and learn and in this case disagree. But why be exposed to such rudeness and uncharitability by those who profess to love us and respect us (separated brothers and sisters)? We went from discussing to being subjected to ranting and raving in this regard.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Jesus said that even more blessed (than Mary)

I don’t see that in my Bible.

The passage addressed to St. Thomas says nothing about being more blessed than Mary.