To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

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Originally Posted by Leeann
As I said…semantics - word play…and you do it well. :rolleyes:
Interesting I thought you were the expert. 😛

This is a common tactic of evasion. You tried to make a case that worship and veneration are no different you tried to show that because they were synonyms that they were the same.
Merriam Webster (online)

General Semantics:
3 a : the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs ; especially : connotative meaning b: the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) **to achieve a desired **effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings
adrift:
Yet the other words that were synounymous included admire, looking up to, appreciate, honor and love you ignored. You only emphasised the worship without discriminating the meaning of worship. The word play is on your part. Taking only one meaning you want while ignoring the others…
You mean the same way that the word “worship” is tossed aside as not applicable in this case by the Catholic Church…:rolleyes:
adrift
…which clearly shows that worship and veneration are different.
*see above …again
adrift
It wasn’t even a good try :rolleyes:
I know…🙂 …but unfortunately necessary, as the attempt of using definitions was given at the very beginning in the thread topic.
 
As an outsider to the Catholic beliefs, I have to say that I don’t think praying to Mary is wrong or goes against God. When people I love have died, I have tried to communicate with them through prayer. It is not spiritually fulfilling like prayers to our Lord, it is emotionally fulfilling as it is my only means of communicating now. Sometimes I’ll ask for them to help me with something. Not because I think my loved one’s are now Gods, but because I hope and pray they are now with God and can speak with him on my behalf. This does not alter or affect my belief in God and God’s ultimate powers. If it were not for God, I would have no hope at all in my lost loved ones feeling my love from Earth. Prayer to the dead only reaffirms my belief!! Mary was the Mother of our Savior. I see nothing wrong with loving her as the Mother of Jesus and missing her, of having pictures or statues of her to remind us of her.

I don’t worship my lost loved ones, I just love them. I thank them for all they did while they were here, but I don’t look at a sunset or a baby or beautiful blue sky and pause to worship them with Awe in all that is created. I think this is how Catholics who venerate Mary feel? Maybe it’s hard for outsiders to understand because in public school no one ever points out that Mary faced being divorced by her husband when she accepted God’s gift to her which had repercussions seriously different from what we face today, no one teaches many of us what it was like for Mary. Truly, the church I went to as a child made the bible sound like fairy tales and it was no more easier to feel attached to anyone in it than it is to feel attached to smurfette. (They don’t even say the Lord’s Prayer in public school anymore 😦 )
 
=happilycatholic;4654130]Jon, I agree with you but I also think there is a little “believe what you wanna believe” going on as in, if one catholic says we worship Mary and that fits their preconceived notion that we do then there you have it we DO indeed worship Mary
.

Yeah, I think that was my point. For some, it is a preconceived notion from ignorance of Catholic teaching. For others, I think a tiny minority, it is a preconceived notion stemming from hostility toward Catholicism.
It’s nonsense. Any intelligent person can tell the difference between veneration, love and honor and “worship”. This deliberate interpretation is all just to perpetuate their own agenda.
Not just intelligence, but also information. Many protestants have not even been exposed to veneration, at least not in a positive sense. For those who hold an anti-catholic agenda, what you say is true.
Personally, I don’t think all Protestants think we worship Mary or anything/anyone else. My parents are Baptist and they don’t believe that way.
Thank you recognizing that.

Jon
 
I do not believe that the Marian dogmas were revealed truth to the Magisterium by the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that the present day pope is the successor of Peter. I do not believe that the Catholic church is the Church that Christ founded. I believe that the magisterium of the Catholic church has puposely and maliciously traslated some of Scripture to support its positions while knowingly doing so in a wrongful and deceitful fashion. I believe that the Reformation was from God and in God’s time as is other reformations that have and will take place in Chirst’s Church. I could continue.
SO YOU ARE SAYING YOU DO NOT BELIVE THE BIBLE
 
Merriam Webster (online)

General Semantics:
3 a : the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs ; especially : connotative meaning b: the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) **to achieve a desired **effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings
The definition still applies well to you.
You mean the same way that the word “worship” is tossed aside as not applicable in this case by the Catholic Church…:rolleyes:
I won’t re-post the meaning of worship-. You have tried to double talk around it. Worship has four meanings. The one that is applicable is the second one. That meaning does not equate with veneration. The definition that is a synonym of worship belongs to the 4th definition. I demonstrated why that was so. You have failed to give evidence that veneration is worship. All you do is come back with a meaningless definition that does nothing but evades that point.
 
The definition still applies well to you.

I won’t re-post the meaning of worship-. You have tried to double talk around it. Worship has four meanings. The one that is applicable is the second one. That meaning does not equate with veneration. The definition that is a synonym of worship belongs to the 4th definition. I demonstrated why that was so. You have failed to give evidence that veneration is worship. All you do is come back with a meaningless definition that does nothing but evades that point.
Did you? I must have missed that post……other than you pointing out how I chose the wrong definition to suit my purpose as opposed to the Catholic Church choosing one that suits them.
adrift
You have failed to give evidence that veneration is worship. All you do is come back with a meaningless definition that does nothing but evades that point.
I’m sorry if the definition seems meaningless to you, but that doesn’t in itself change the authenticity and correctness of application in this case.
 
Yes. Good luck with that. This is something that just keeps going round and round with Protestants. The case will probably never be closed in that regards.

I admire the OP in trying to present his argument, but you cannot make someone listen if they do not want to listen.

Just for the record, Martin Luther still prayed to Mary and venerated her after he formally split from Rome. So, I do not understand why Protestants have an issue with this and have to “bash” Catholics for it the way they do.

God Bless,

Jean
JEAN You are so right The first Protestant loved and honored the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of GOD. Why haven’t all of the rest of Protestantism followed his example in honoring her? they do with sola scriptura
 
WORSHIP MARY? IT CAN SEEM THAT WAY
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So, Catholics don't worship Mary. But there is so much emphasis on Mary that this is the impression that many get who are outside the Church.

In many (most?) Catholic churches there is a prominent statue of Mary (something that the Ten Commandments may condemn? - some Protestants might argue that). I have worshipped at churches in which a resplendent Mary is depicted in a huge painting above the altar, etc.

 The most popular prayer in Catholicism would seem to be the 'Hail Mary'. Consider the Rosary where it is said many times more than the 'Our Father'. While the first part of the Hail Mary is found in the gospels, the last part is not.

  The major miracle sites that seem to draw Catholics pilgrims today - like Lourdes and Fatima - focus primarily on miracles performed by or through Mary. Among Hispanic Catholics Mary appears even more prominent than Christ. It seems that when someone sees some sort of image, whether on a window or a pizza, it is of Mary. I have visited Ste. Anne de Beaupre several times in Quebec, dedicated to the mother of Mary. The Bible makes no references to St. Ann, of course, and even the Catholic Encyclopedia states that there is some question as to the parents of Mary. Yet, in 1854 (date?) Pius IX declared the Immaculate Conception, that she was conceived without sin. He's the same Pope, by the way, who declared the infallibility of the Pope in faith and morals.

  There is a strong suspicion among non-Catholics that Mariology is a cultic side of Catholicism, borrowed from paganism,that there is insufficient evidence in the Bible to merit the veneration (let alone the worship) of Mary. For example, in all of Paul's explicit letters to early Christians, raising many theological points, Mary isn't so much as mentioned once. If she should receive such adoration, wouldn't he have at least hinted at that somewhere in his epistles?

 All Christians honor Mary, of course. Some Protestants I know, for example, use only 'Madonna and Child' stamps at Christmas time. Even the Muslims believe in the Virgin Birth, and there actually is much more explicitly about Mary in the Koran than in the Christian scriptures. But the feeling among many non-Catholics is that some Catholics carry it to an extreme, that the focus on Mary is a relic of preChristian faiths that emphasized a female diety, always a Virgin, usually the mother of a Savior-God. There are, of course, miracles associated with the birth of Mohammed, Buddha, and others. 

The Catholic Church does such wonderful work, but it really needs to deemphasize some of certain traditions, most of them unBiblical, that increasingly alienate its well-educated parishioners. They want to be faithful but often find that they are called upon to believe the unbelievable, pious stuff inherited from an age before we had telescopes and microscopes, when people believed the world is flat and Jesus literally sat on a throne on the right side of the Father. Acceptable then, but not today.

 Keep smiling.
 
yes, i’m portuguese and although my english is pretty much improved, with these issues we are talking about, i find hard to explain certain things. but first, let me say that we shouldn’t worry to much about what protestants do or think. instead, we should love them and pray for them. we don’t have to prove anything to them, we just have to give our example.
as for Our Lady, i think i understand where you are all coming from with this debate of worshiping, devoting or other names you used that i never heard IN ENGLISH. i might know them very well in portuguese, but never mind.
now, as u know only God does things, not even Jesus, although Jesus is Gods son, therefore, He’s God himself. but the way it works is, Jesus asks God and God consents. now, anyone who wants to ask anything to God, has to be through His son, Jesus. that’s what happens with Mary. the catholic dogma does say that Mary is Gods mother. Mary is Jesus mother. so when Mary asks anything to Jesus, do u think He is gonna deny Her? a good son never does that. plus, God Himself gave Mary the task of defeating satan. it’s on Revelations, the Lady dressed in white. if someone doesn’t believe how special Mary is, just read the bible and check what Arcangel Gabriel said to Her, before She was pregnant. or what her cousin Isabelle said. this two events are what makes the most beautiful and more powerful prayer in the world, THE HAIL MARY. Of course She only intercedes for us, but as a sweet Mum, she wants to helps us all. God through Mary, told Lucy from Fatima, that we should consecrate russia to Her Sacred Heart. that was never done by any Pope due to strong resistance from the freemasonry infiltrated inside the Vatican. God didn’t ask us to consecrate russia to God or Jesus, but to Mary. She said that if we wouldn’t do that, the world wouldn’t have peace and communism and atheism would spread. that’s what happened and that’s why the world is in the state it is today. there are dozens and dozens of Marion apparitions, and the main message is , convert, pray, return to my son Jesus because the Kingdom of Heaven is very near. you believe it or not, most of what u can read in Revelation is happening today, just is front of our own eyes. read Mathew, chapter 24 or Daniel.
Mary has a big huge role in these end of times, She’s the one who’s gonna crush satans head. satan is the symbol of pride, so he’s gonna be defeated by the maximum symbol of humility, MARY.
SO, WHY SHOULDN’T WE WORSHIP OR HAVE DEVOTION TOWARDS OUR MOTHER?
any feeling about Mary, trust me, doesn’t mean neglecting our Love to God or Jesus. go with me on this
God bless you all. and HAIL MARY !!!
 
Tell that to Pope Pius XII and Cardinal Strosmeier.
My friend SIA, perhaps you might want to spend a few minutes reading what Cardinal Newman had to say…and what makes what he has to say important is the fact that he was originally an Anglican Priest who converted to Catholicism… Some good reading:

fordham.edu/halsall/mod/newman-mary.html

newmancause.co.uk/featured/newman-on-the-blessed-virgin-mary-mother-of-god-mother-of-all-the-living.html

therealpresence.org/archives/Mariology/Mariology_039.htm

vultus.stblogs.org/the-mother-of-god/2007/03/

I make mention of this because I find it difficult for us to deny or question the intelligence of those more learned than we. 🙂

I have never “worshiped” Mary, but I have “venerated” her and prayed to her… I have never been told or taught to “worship” anyone but God.
 
WORSHIP MARY? IT CAN SEEM THAT WAY
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So, Catholics don't worship Mary. But there is so much emphasis on Mary that this is the impression that many get who are outside the Church....
People ignorant of “facts” are easily misled.
Code:
In many (most?) Catholic churches there is a prominent statue of Mary (something that the Ten Commandments may condemn? - some Protestants might argue that).
Yes they might, then again they might strive to stop the wind from blowing. The Second Council of Nicea laid this entire issue to rest. This Council was in the year 787 AD, long before “Protestants” became protestants. The early church fathers condemned “iconoclasts” and made it clear through Church documents and doctrine:

From here: piar.hu/councils/ecum07.htm

**Anathemas concerning holy images
  1. If anyone does not confess that Christ our God can be represented in his humanity, let him be anathema.
  2. If anyone does not accept representation in art of evangelical scenes, let him be anathema.
  3. If anyone does not salute such representations as standing for the Lord and his saints, let him be anathema.
  4. If anyone rejects any written or unwritten tradition of the church, let him be anathema. **
At the risk of seeming snippy, I find it somewhat arrogant that modern protestants represent themselves as being better versed at Scriptures and wiser than the ECF’s.
I have worshipped at churches in which a resplendent Mary is depicted in a huge painting above the altar, etc.
Code:
 The most popular prayer in Catholicism would seem to be the 'Hail Mary'. Consider the Rosary where it is said many times more than the 'Our Father'. While the first part of the Hail Mary is found in the gospels, the last part is not.
Code:
  The major miracle sites that seem to draw Catholics pilgrims today - like Lourdes and Fatima - focus primarily on miracles performed by or through Mary. Among Hispanic Catholics Mary appears even more prominent than Christ. It seems that when someone sees some sort of image, whether on a window or a pizza, it is of Mary. I have visited Ste. Anne de Beaupre several times in Quebec, dedicated to the mother of Mary. The Bible makes no references to St. Ann, of course, and even the Catholic Encyclopedia states that there is some question as to the parents of Mary. Yet, in 1854 (date?) Pius IX declared the Immaculate Conception, that she was conceived without sin. He's the same Pope, by the way, who declared the infallibility of the Pope in faith and morals.
And nowhere within the Bible is it said that the Bible is the only source of faith or the only document that contains “proofs”. The real problem is that non-Catholics, or at least many of them have little or no understanding of Mary.
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  There is a strong suspicion among non-Catholics that Mariology is a cultic side of Catholicism, borrowed from paganism,that there is insufficient evidence in the Bible to merit the veneration (let alone the worship) of Mary. For example, in all of Paul's explicit letters to early Christians, raising many theological points, Mary isn't so much as mentioned once. If she should receive such adoration, wouldn't he have at least hinted at that somewhere in his epistles?
That Paul or any other author of a book in the Bible did not write copious lines attributing to Mary is a non-sequitur. Yet Mary is mentioned in many writings by the ECF’s, and even the early leaders of the Reformation openly stated their position regarding Mary… davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm But hey, “modern” protestants are much wiser than the Reformers, right?
Code:
 All Christians honor Mary, of course. Some Protestants I know, for example, use only 'Madonna and Child' stamps at Christmas time. Even the Muslims believe in the Virgin Birth, and there actually is much more explicitly about Mary in the Koran than in the Christian scriptures. But the feeling among many non-Catholics is that some Catholics carry it to an extreme, that the focus on Mary is a relic of preChristian faiths that emphasized a female diety, always a Virgin, usually the mother of a Savior-God. There are, of course, miracles associated with the birth of Mohammed, Buddha, and others.
Ignorance is bliss, and obfuscation is a weak support tool for pretenders to utilize as self justificatory hypothesis.
Code:
The Catholic Church does such wonderful work, but it really needs to deemphasize some of certain traditions, most of them unBiblical, that increasingly alienate its well-educated parishioners. They want to be faithful but often find that they are called upon to believe the unbelievable, pious stuff inherited from an age before we had telescopes and microscopes, when people believed the world is flat and Jesus literally sat on a throne on the right side of the Father. Acceptable then, but not today.
Thank you for your kind words. But what really needs to happen is that if you don’t believe or accept something, stop worrying about it. Y’all make more of it that we do. I am well educated, very well educated, and I have no problems with my beliefs, and your trite statement that something is non-biblical is of no value. I suffer zero alienation whatsoever, nor does my lovely wife who has three degrees…🙂

Do you mean to say that you believe neither the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed? Even the “Reformed Churches” believe that Christ sits at the right hand of the Father… reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/nicene.html Hmmmm, makes me wonder…what do you believe?

Our beliefs are as acceptable today as they were since the beginning of the Church (Catholic, with a big “C”)🙂
Keep smiling.
You too!!😃
 
Originally Posted by adrift View Post
You are right it is synonyms but not quite the way you think.
Did you? I must have missed that post……other than you pointing out how I chose the wrong definition to suit my purpose as opposed to the Catholic Church choosing one that suits them.
either you missed it or you didn’t. :sad_yes: I am reading your post as sarcasm.either that or you can’t read. It is right in your reply to me.
I’m sorry if the definition seems meaningless to you, but that doesn’t in itself change the authenticity and correctness of application in this case.
The reason why it is meaningless is because it applies more to you than to the Catholic Church.
to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings
Worship has dual meaning and you are using that to arrive at a novel meaning. When challenged, you resort to a definition as if that explains your misuse of a word that is not defined by the Catholic Church but by a secular dictionary.
 
Leeann:
I’m sorry if the definition seems meaningless to you, but that doesn’t in itself change the authenticity and correctness of application in this case.
response adrift:
The reason why it is meaningless is because it applies more to you than to the Catholic Church.
That would be your opinion and it’s most welcome, however I disagree.
  • Code:
         Quote: definition
                 to achieve a desired effect on an audience             especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings  *
Worship has dual meaning and you are using that to arrive at a novel meaning. When challenged, you resort to a definition as if that explains your misuse of a word that is not defined by the Catholic Church but by a secular dictionary.
Or - it can be said that ‘worship has dual meaning and the Catholic Church is using that to arrive at a novel meaning…’🤷

Interesting, you never mentioned any concern in your earlier responses with regards to using a “secular dictionary”…only now…so what dictionary does the Catholic Church use, or does it just define words in a special way when the need arises.
 
Interesting, you never mentioned any concern in your earlier responses with regards to using a “secular dictionary”…only now…so what dictionary does the Catholic Church use, or does it just define words in a special way when the need arises.
Leeann, generally…I think that we rely on secular definitions for most things, however, where the line tends to blur is when there are multiple definitions of the same word and someone moves to use a non-applicable definition to misrepresent.

Perhaps you will find the answers you seek at these two links as they do explain the Catholic viewpoint and the differentiation between “worship” and “veneration” as it applies to God and the Virgin Mary. There is no confusion for us, and no amount of discourse to the contrary will change that fact.

For your edification:

newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

Please read them and understand the differences.
 
That would be your opinion and it’s most welcome, however I disagree.

Or - it can be said that ‘worship has dual meaning and the Catholic Church is using that to arrive at a novel meaning…’🤷

Interesting, you never mentioned any concern in your earlier responses with regards to using a “secular dictionary”…only now…so what dictionary does the Catholic Church use, or does it just define words in a special way when the need arises.
Hi Leean 🙂

I’ve noticed you have a deep interest in understanding Catholic devotion to Mary!

May God bless you and give you peace on this subject. The only people who worship Mary with the worship due to God alone are those who are NOT following what the Church teaches.

From the Catechism:

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.” The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.
 
hi, my name is luis and i’m a portuguese catholic. in general i did like what you wrote. yes, we do worship Mary. i do it every single day. i love to consecrate my life to Her. this pleases God. She is the one who’s gonna defeat satan. God gave the Virgin Mary the power to combat the power of darkness, with the great help of our Arcangel Michael. She is the most humble person who walked on earth and so and due to that humility that satan is gonna be defeated. it’s that example of humility that ultimately is gonna humiliate satan and defeat him.
just a detail, pray for protestants instead of using confrontation. this will only lead to further divisions and resentments. remember, the catholic church is the best way to reach salvation, but not the only one. they also worship the same God and the same Jesus. their purification will have to be more pailful, but they are not doomed.
our obligation is to pray for everyone, including those who don’t believe in God or have different ways of worshiping.
God bless you
I feel the love in this persons post 🙂
However, please take note concerning the teaching of the RCC concerning the salvation and condemnation of those outside of the RCC.

ECCUMENICAL COUNCIL OF FLORENCE (1438-1445)
Session 11—4 February 1442
It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.

I am going to hell based on this teaching; yet I am not; therefore this teaching must be in error.

If prayer is a form of worship, and it is, and you pray to Mary for divine intersession on behalf of someone, and RC’s do, then this is a form of worship not found in all of Scripture because there is only One intercessor between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. The only One who intercedes on out behalf in regards to prayer, because we don’t how to pray as we ought; is the Holy Spirit.

Goes with the old adage that if it looks like a duck, quacks likes a duck and swims like a duck, then it is a duck no matter what you claim by the use of semantics.
 
ECCUMENICAL COUNCIL OF FLORENCE (1438-1445)
Session 11—4 February 1442
It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.
I do not see anything wrong in this statement and it didn’t say anything about worshipping Mary. :confused:
 
I do not see anything wrong in this statement and it didn’t say anything about worshipping Mary. :confused:
I was editing, so there is some reference to the actual topic…thanks for pointing that out.
 
Hi Leean 🙂

I’ve noticed you have a deep interest in understanding Catholic devotion to Mary!

May God bless you and give you peace on this subject. The only people who worship Mary with the worship due to God alone are those who are NOT following what the Church teaches.
Hi AshleyBelle

Thank you!

To be able to see that there are Catholics themselves that recognize that not ALL Catholics are following what the Church teaches in regards to their veneration/adoration/worship/devotion to Mary is a start towards that “peace” for me that you mentioned.
 
NonCatholic…you beat me to it!

I felt the same way you did reading “luis_rcoelho’s” post - a lot of love there.
 
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