To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[Eucharisted]

• Catholics don’t worship statues
• Catholics don’t believe in three gods in one
• Catholics don’t pray to saints
• Catholics don’t forbid marriage to non-Catholics
• Catholics don’t think sex is evil
• Catholics don’t hate homosexuals
• Catholics don’t make money off of indulgences
• Catholics don’t force conversions
• Catholics don’t rewrite history or Scriptures
• Catholics don’t get brainwashed by priests
• Catholics don’t encourage pedophilia
• Catholics don’t believe God is a piece of bread
• Catholics don’t persecute non-Catholics
• Catholics don’t believe in the rapture
• Catholics don’t follow apparitions under pain of sin
• Catholics don’t call themselves “Roman Catholic”

 

[Leeann]

RobHom
Leeann, generally…I think that we rely on secular definitions for most things, however, where the line tends to blur is when there are multiple definitions of the same word and someone moves to use a non-applicable definition to misrepresent.

I see what you mean, something to fall back on, to suit their purposes in supporting a theology that has been promoted and developed and has gotten a bit out of hand….something that warrants clarification (and I use that word lightly)…perhaps loophole.

RobHom
Perhaps you will find the answers you seek at these two links as they do explain the Catholic viewpoint and the differentiation between “worship” and “veneration” as it applies to God and the Virgin Mary. There is no confusion for us, and no amount of discourse to the contrary will change that fact.

For “us”? Do you mean ALL Catholics?

RobHom
For your edification:

newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

Thank you for these reference sites (I have visited them before in attempts of clarification) – I really wouldn’t recommend the first site as one for this particular thread topic – it may tend to only confirm what some already believe - that Mary is indeed worshipped.

The second site – actually states it directly – in the last paragraph below – about the worship given to Mary……lots of ‘word play’/definitions there.

In the opening question, documental evidence was requested to support the claim by some Protestants that Mary is worshipped…while this dictionary entry is not a “document” of the Catholic Church…is it safe to say that this entry is acceptable to the Catholic Church…a form of worship.
I suppose the real issue, is that there is a need in the first place for different words and lengthy explanations to support the teachings and practices within the Catholic Church.

From second site:

Notion and Characteristics (Worship)

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.
There are several degrees of this worship:
• if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
• When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

RobHom
Please read them and understand the differences.

If it were only that easy….some Catholics do not even understand the difference.

 

[NonCatholic]

• Catholics don’t worship statues
• Catholics don’t believe in three gods in one
• Catholics don’t pray to saints
• Catholics don’t forbid marriage to non-Catholics
• Catholics don’t think sex is evil
• Catholics don’t hate homosexuals
• Catholics don’t make money off of indulgences
• Catholics don’t force conversions
• Catholics don’t rewrite history or Scriptures
• Catholics don’t get brainwashed by priests
• Catholics don’t encourage pedophilia
• Catholics don’t believe God is a piece of bread
• Catholics don’t persecute non-Catholics
• Catholics don’t believe in the rapture
• Catholics don’t follow apparitions under pain of sin
• Catholics don’t call themselves “Roman Catholic”

I read the conversion story…were you not afraid at the appearing? Wow…

 

[SIA]

SO YOU ARE SAYING YOU DO NOT BELIVE THE BIBLE

Quite the contrary; it is the Bible that I believe, not the Roman church.

 

[Soutane]

Quite the contrary; it is the Bible that I believe, not the Roman church.

Please DO NOT refer to my Church as the ROMAN Church.It is a veiled insult and you know it.It is the Roman Catholic Church or MUCH more accurately,to include all Rites,the Catholic Church.It is just a hair’s breadth away from calling it Romish.You’ve been told.It’s OFFENSIVE.Don’t do it again.You’ve been here long enough to understand what I’m talking about.

 

[Soutane]

I see what you mean, something to fall back on, to suit their purposes in supporting a theology that has been promoted and developed and has gotten a bit out of hand….something that warrants clarification (and I use that word lightly)…perhaps loophole.

For “us”? Do you mean ALL Catholics?

Thank you for these reference sites (I have visited them before in attempts of clarification) – I really wouldn’t recommend the first site as one for this particular thread topic – it may tend to only confirm what some already believe - that Mary is indeed worshipped.

The second site – actually states it directly – in the last paragraph below – about the worship given to Mary……lots of ‘word play’/definitions there.

In the opening question, documental evidence was requested to support the claim by some Protestants that Mary is worshipped…while this dictionary entry is not a “document” of the Catholic Church…is it safe to say that this entry is acceptable to the Catholic Church…a form of worship.
I suppose the real issue, is that there is a need in the first place for different words and lengthy explanations to support the teachings and practices within the Catholic Church.

From second site:

Notion and Characteristics (Worship)

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.
There are several degrees of this worship:
• if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
• When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

If it were only that easy….some Catholics do not even understand the difference.

I don’t believe this.Are you saying that we WORSHIP the BVM?Read the Cathechism for the Truth.Some Catholics may be woefully ignorant but I in turn do not say that all Protestants handle snakes and drink turpentine.That would be a lie and I would be committing a MORTAL sin by bearing false witness against my neighbour.You’ve been here long enough to know Catholics do not worship the created.To say otherwise is absolute calumny.

 

[Soutane]

• Catholics don’t worship statues
• Catholics don’t believe in three gods in one
• Catholics don’t pray to saints
• Catholics don’t forbid marriage to non-Catholics
• Catholics don’t think sex is evil
• Catholics don’t hate homosexuals
• Catholics don’t make money off of indulgences
• Catholics don’t force conversions
• Catholics don’t rewrite history or Scriptures
• Catholics don’t get brainwashed by priests
• Catholics don’t encourage pedophilia
• Catholics don’t believe God is a piece of bread
• Catholics don’t persecute non-Catholics
• Catholics don’t believe in the rapture
• Catholics don’t follow apparitions under pain of sin
• Catholics don’t call themselves “Roman Catholic”

This I’m going to save.Both you and Gottle of Gear have added two new bolts to my apologetics quiver.I read the story of your conversion and was blown away.It is amazing but within my own parish I have heard of at least a half-dozen of similar experiences.

 

[NonCatholic]

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, flies like a duck, eats like a duck, then it is a DUCK! You can play a game of semantics, but before God that will fly in the face like spitting in the wind.

There are several degrees of this worship:

* **if it is addressed directly to God**, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, **a worship of latria**. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
* When worship is addressed only **indirectly to God**, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the **worship of dulia**, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
* As the **Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints,**  ***this makes no sense since Jesus himself that there was no one ever greater than John the Baptist - is their any degree of worship for him?*** **the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia** (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

This Mary is the RC Mary and in no way, shape, or form is the Biblical Mary…say what you want, but read the Bible says of Mary and compare to what has been added by the RCC on Mary and there is no resemblance. A simple word search on Mary and mother will lead the way.

newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

 

[Bill_Pick]

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, flies like a duck, eats like a duck, then it is a DUCK! You can play a game of semantics, but before God that will fly in the face like spitting in the wind.

There are several degrees of this worship:

* **if it is addressed directly to God**, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, **a worship of latria**. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
* When worship is addressed only **indirectly to God**, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the **worship of dulia**, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
* As the **Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints,**  ***this makes no sense since Jesus himself that there was no one ever greater than John the Baptist - is their any degree of worship for him?*** **the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia** (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

This Mary is the RC Mary and in no way, shape, or form is the Biblical Mary…say what you want, but read the Bible says of Mary and compare to what has been added by the RCC on Mary and there is no resemblance. A simple word search on Mary and mother will lead the way.

newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

I SEE YOU DO NOT HAVE A RELIGION BUT YOU MUST BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS THAT RIGHT

 

[Soutane]

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, flies like a duck, eats like a duck, then it is a DUCK! You can play a game of semantics, but before God that will fly in the face like spitting in the wind.

There are several degrees of this worship:

* **if it is addressed directly to God**, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, **a worship of latria**. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
* When worship is addressed only **indirectly to God**, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the **worship of dulia**, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
* As the **Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints,**  ***this makes no sense since Jesus himself that there was no one ever greater than John the Baptist - is their any degree of worship for him?*** **the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia** (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

This Mary is the RC Mary and in no way, shape, or form is the Biblical Mary…say what you want, but read the Bible says of Mary and compare to what has been added by the RCC on Mary and there is no resemblance. A simple word search on Mary and mother will lead the way.

newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

You are treading on dangerous ground friend.We have advised you we do not worship Mary.Period.For you to continue in this vein is tantamount to calling us liars and bearing fase witness.Read the Catechism for the Truth.

Please do not abbreviate my Church.RC RCC are not acceptable,nor is Roman church,Romish,or anything else that implies disrespect or a diminutive.The Catholic Church,Roman Catholic Church are acceptable.Please comply out of respect.Thank you.

 

[NonCatholic]

You are treading on dangerous ground friend.We have advised you we do not worship Mary.Period. **Why would you care what I see and believe; I would be more concerned about what God thinks? **For you to continue in this vein is tantamount to calling us liars and bearing false witness.Read the Catechism for the Truth. Are you saying the source I used is invalid? If so, then just say it.

Please do not abbreviate my Church.RC RCC are not acceptable,nor is Roman church,Romish,or anything else that implies disrespect or a diminutive.The Catholic Church,Roman Catholic Church are acceptable.Please comply out of respect.Thank you.

The source for the above is from one of your own; I believe I included the link, but in case I am mistaken-here it is - newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm . Also, will you also warn all others not to use RC or RCC, which means you would need to go through all the posts…this is the most common usage throughout the forum…or are you singling me out? At this point, you are obligated to rescind the request or tell every single person in this forum the same in like manner.

 

[Soutane]

The source for the above is from one of your own; I believe I included the link, but in case I am mistaken-here it is - newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm . Also, will you also warn all others not to use RC or RCC, which means you would need to go through all the posts…this is the most common usage throughout the forum…or are you singling me out? At this point, you are obligated to rescind the request or tell every single person in this forum the same in like manner.

I personally find the use of said abbreviations disrespectful and I am making a request one Christian to another that you not use them.I promise to make the same request in any posts in which I see them employed.I TRY to avoid the use of the word Protestant and instead TRY to use non-Catholic Christian or separated brethren as I know the word irks some.

 

[NonCatholic]

I personally find the use of said abbreviations disrespectful and I am making a request one Christian to another that you not use them.I promise to make the same request in any posts in which I see them employed.I TRY to avoid the use of the word Protestant and instead TRY to use non-Catholic Christian or separated brethren as I know the word irks some.

I saw your profile and the “Latin Rite”; I have an Uncle is is of that. Can you send me a PM with any good links that I can review to find out more about what this means…thanks. It is a banned topic, so do not post on forum.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
I see what you mean, something to fall back on, to suit their purposes in supporting a theology that has been promoted and developed and has gotten a bit out of hand….something that warrants clarification (and I use that word lightly)…perhaps loophole.

For “us”? Do you mean ALL Catholics?

Thank you for these reference sites (I have visited them before in attempts of clarification) – I really wouldn’t recommend the first site as one for this particular thread topic – it may tend to only confirm what some already believe - that Mary is indeed worshipped.

The second site – actually states it directly – in the last paragraph below – about the worship given to Mary……lots of ‘word play’/definitions there.

In the opening question, documental evidence was requested to support the claim by some Protestants that Mary is worshipped…while this dictionary entry is not a “document” of the Catholic Church…is it safe to say that this entry is acceptable to the Catholic Church…a form of worship.
I suppose the real issue, is that there is a need in the first place for different words and lengthy explanations to support the teachings and practices within the Catholic Church.

From second site:

Notion and Characteristics (Worship)

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.
There are several degrees of this worship:
• if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
• When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

Originally by Leeann
If it were only that easy….some Catholics do not even understand the difference.

Soutane:
I don’t believe this. Are you saying that we WORSHIP the BVM?

The above excerpt from the “Christian Worship” page (www.newadvent site) says it.

Soutane:
Read the Cathechism for the Truth.

I have read the Cathechism. Are you saying that the www.newadvent site isn’t an acceptable reference to use for Catholic definitions?

Soutane:
Some Catholics may be woefully ignorant but I in turn do not say that all Protestants handle snakes and drink turpentine.That would be a lie and I would be committing a MORTAL sin by bearing false witness against my neighbour.

Yes. I agree, you would be sinning in that case.

Soutane:
You’ve been here long enough to know Catholics do not worship the created.
To say otherwise is absolute calumny.

I’ve been here long enough to know that this is what is posted by Catholics, however that in itself does not make it to be true for “other” Catholics, due to what you call them being “woefully ignorant”.

I’m curious….would the phrase “woeful ignorance” be considered absolute calumny?.

---

 

[adrift]

The above excerpt from the “Christian Worship” page (www.newadvent site) says it.

I have read the Cathechism. Are you saying that the www.newadvent site isn’t an acceptable reference to use for Catholic definitions?

Yes. I agree, you would be sinning in that case.

I’ve been here long enough to know that this is what is posted by Catholics, however that in itself does not make it to be true for “other” Catholics, due to what you call them being “woefully ignorant”.

I’m curious….would the phrase “woeful ignorance” be considered absolute calumny?.

---

Your links aren’t working but I did find the article you referred to.

It comes from the 1917 Encyclopedia. Words do change their meaning. For proof of that look at the word gay. It had taken on a different meaning than it had 50 years ago.

Here is a 1913 dictionary meaning of worship
Although you quoted a great deal of the article you missed an important sentence.

There are several degrees of this worship:

* if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
* When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
* As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

In todays world we wouldn’t use the word worship because it has become more restrictive than when that encyclopedia was written. You have been told the same thing that this article states. We give Mary hyperdulia

HYPERDULIA

The special veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is substantially less than the cultus latria (adoration), which is due to God alone. But it is higher than the cultus dulia (veneration), due to angels and other saints. As the Church understands the veneration of Mary, it is to be closely associated but subordinated to that of her Son. “The various forms of piety towards the Mother of God, which the Church has approved within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine according to the dispositions and understanding of the faithful, ensure that while the mother is honored, the Son through whom all things have their being and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell, is rightly loved and glorified and His commandments are observed” (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, VII, 66). (Etym. Latin hyperdulia, virtue of deep submission.)

 

[adrift]

Interesting, you never mentioned any concern in your earlier responses with regards to using a “secular dictionary”…only now…so what dictionary does the Catholic Church use, or does it just define words in a special way when the need arises.

Sarcasm instead of an answer.

The reason I mentioned the dictionary is precisely because of this sentence. You seem to intimate that the Church makes up definitions or uses semantics.
The Church is about truth. It doesn’t need to define it out of ordinary but I showed how you did. You don’t answer what I say except to be sarcastic.

 

[Bill_Pick]

If you want to understand how Catholics treat Mary, look at the way the Israelites treated the Ark of the Covenant.

 

[Leeann]

Adrift:
Your links aren’t working but I did find the article you referred to.

It comes from the 1917 Encyclopedia. Words do change their meaning. For proof of that look at the word gay. It had taken on a different meaning than it had 50 years ago.

I’m sorry, I should have posted the complete link address, here it is, the site I was referring too. I was directed there, by another Catholic poster as a reference point.

www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

Adrift:
Here is a 1913 dictionary meaning of worship.

Although you quoted a great deal of the article you missed an important sentence.

*Quote:
There are several degrees of this worship:

• if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
• When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).*

In todays world we wouldn’t use the word worship because it has become more restrictive than when that encyclopedia was written. You have been told the same thing that this article states. We give Mary hyperdulia.

*Quote:
HYPERDULIA

The special veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is substantially less than the cultus latria (adoration), which is due to God alone. But it is higher than the cultus dulia (veneration), due to angels and other saints. As the Church understands the veneration of Mary, it is to be closely associated but subordinated to that of her Son. “The various forms of piety towards the Mother of God, which the Church has approved within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine according to the dispositions and understanding of the faithful, ensure that while the mother is honored, the Son through whom all things have their being and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell, is rightly loved and glorified and His commandments are observed” (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, VII, 66). (Etym. Latin hyperdulia, virtue of deep submission.) *

Yes, I understand that it is called hyperdulia, I didn’t miss that and I even understand the meaning of hyperdulia as explained above, however in the same line (if it is the one I think you meant when you said, ‘I missed an important sentence…” – if this is the sentence you are referring too :

• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

…you are quite correct, it clearly states what hopefully Catholics do with the Catholic Church’s teachings regarding Mary….that being hyperdulia …and it also states what hyperdulia is……it is worship.

I’m not certain if you are referring to the portion I posted as to being from the 1917 encyclopedia, thereby inferring that it is in someway ‘outdated’? If so, then I offer that when read in context on the site, it is used as if it stands as well today as it did then and is used as a reference ‘today’ when one visits the site.

As for the “meaning and history of these terms” – latria, dulia, hyperdulia – these words in themselves aren’t new and have been around for quite some time.
By your own reasoning above, you state that “words do change their meaning” ….perhaps these words have also changed in their meanings over the past 50 years….either due to what has been referred too as “woeful ignorance” on the part of the people being taught…or by a lack in the catechizer’s ability while teaching.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann

Interesting, you never mentioned any concern in your earlier responses with regards to using a “secular dictionary”…only now…so what dictionary does the Catholic Church use, or does it just define words in a special way when the need arises.

Adrift:
Sarcasm instead of an answer.

The reason I mentioned the dictionary is precisely because of this sentence. You seem to intimate that the Church makes up definitions or uses semantics.

I didn’t “intimate” anything……I stated it flat out…and it was a valid point because that is exactly what happened…BUT……it did come out sarcastically and I apologize for that Adrift.

Adrift:
The Church is about truth. It doesn’t need to define it out of ordinary but I showed how you did.

I accept this as your opinion and thank your for sharing that with me.

Adrift:
You don’t answer what I say except to be sarcastic.

Check back over the posts.
I believe I have answered you and not always with sarcasm, although it is something that is a problem for me and in the future I will sincerely try not to fall into that old habit.

 

[mesl4]

I left off reading at post 15 so not sure what all has been presented.

I am in RCIA and come from a pretty anti-catholoc, Protestant background. This Mary thing is a huge stumbling block for me. It was being discussed at RCIA last night. I wanted to know what is the difference in the acts and thoughts toward Mary vs. to God because aside from the word “worship” and “veneration” it seems the same from my view. Finally, the leader said the Eucharist is something only done to God. OK, good answer. But, I don’t know what God’s definition of idol or worship is. We can look into our dictionaries, but those are made by man. Here is a dictionary definition:
idol:
-An image used as an object of worship.
-A false god.
-One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
-Something visible but without substance

So, Mary would fit into the 3rd defn. of idol. Money can be our idol, sports, pleasure, all sorts of things. Again though, I don’t know God’s definition. We can look at the OT examples of idols. Look at the story of Daniel/Shadrach Mishack and Abednego. They did not bow down and worship the king’s idol (statue of his God) because that would be a sign of worship or veneration that only the true God was worthy of. Same w/early Christians and Nero. They knew they would not be worhiping them in their hearts, yet they refused to even give that impression. Also, when someone started to bow to Peter in the NT, he stopped them because “he is only a man.” This is why I still feel very uncomfortable w/the Mary veneration. It’s too risky. I can’t imagine God w/condemn me for NOT venerating her, if my reason was becaue I want to make sure to distinguish HIS majesty and greatness above all else. I CAN imagine him comdemning me for venerating something. So, until I’m convinced he’s OK w/it, I won’t do it.I can love her and honor her as I do any saint or honorable person, but bowing down and praising her feels way too risky.

Now, in re-reading Daniel 2:46-47, I am perplexed by Daniel allowing the King to bow to him and offer incense to him. This doesn’t jive w/the rest of scripture that renounces that type of behavior. I don’t get it.