To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

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Non_Serviam said:
Are you saying that Jesus was accompanied every minute of his waking life by Mary and Joseph, as this is what would be necessary for your statement to be true?

The Bible says He was with Mary and Joseph during His childhood and that Mary is with Him during at least parts of His ministry, but this is the first time I’ve ever heard such a* bizarre* interpretation of this passage of Scripture.

Is there anyone else who believes this?
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And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. - Phil 4:7

You can try to understand bible with the powers of your reason (i.e. interpretation). If you believe the human mind can understand God, then go right ahead.

Even if your mind is so great as Satan’s, “logical” speculations about the Word Made Flesh, will ultimately fail. Recall that the devil used clever arguments from scripture to tempt Jesus. Didn’t work did it?.

You also conveniently omit that only Mary (and those accompanying her) had love great enough to approach Jesus at the foot of the cross. All other ran away as they were not worthy to see the Blessed Savior in His eternally compassionate sacrificial self. Only the love of His Mother, the other women like her, and the only apostle with love as hers, were in attendance.

If you are willing to learn something, try then to understand the mood, the spiritual position, the holiness of the author of the old spiritual hymn, "Were you there when they crucified my Lord?"

The author says, “it causes me to tremble”. Why? Were they actually there?

The Life of Jesus is Living! He lives for ever and nothing of His Divine Life on Earth is mundane. To understand Jesus, is to know everything of Jesus, not only His ministry. For in fact, He ascended to the Father and will come again in Glory.

The Savior reveals what he wishes to reveal in secret, in the deep recesses of the heart, and these are so simple a “child can understand”.

Where is the simplicity of Bible study arguments that children can understand?

They are not there. But in the Holy Catholic Church, and the Communion of saints, we renounce whole heartedly** lofty interpretations** of the Holy Gospels.

We, rather, cling to the humility of Mary, the simplicity of the saints, who preserve and defend the Church against all attacks, by the Power of their Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings, who Rules over everything.

To quote once again, a Doctor of the Church, St. Teresa the Little Flower, :

*Happy dewdrop, known to God alone, think not of the rushing torrents of this world! Envy not even the crystal stream which winds among the meadows. The ripple of its waters is sweet indeed, but it can be heard by creatures. Besides, the Field-flower could never contain it in its cup. One must be so little to draw near to Jesus, and few are the souls that aspire to be little and unknown. “Are not the river and the brook,” they urge, “of more use than a dewdrop? Of what avail is it? Its only purpose is to refresh for one moment some poor little field-flower.” Ah! They little know the true Flower of the field. Did they know Him they would understand better Our Lord’s reproach to Martha. Our Beloved needs neither our brilliant deeds nor our beautiful thoughts. Were He in search of lofty ideas, has He not His Angels, whose knowledge infinitely surpasses that of the greatest genius of earth? Neither intellect nor other talents has He come to seek among us. . . . He has become the Flower of the field to show how much He loves simplicity. The Lily of the valley_ asks but a single dewdrop, which for one night shall rest in its cup, hidden from all human eyes. But when the shadows shall begin to fade, when the Flower of the field shall have become the _Sun of Justice,then the dewdrop–the humble sharer of His exile–will rise up to Him as love’s vapour. *
 
Angels_Unaware said:
Napsack, I suggest you stop using the term circular reasoning, since you fail to comprehend what it means and could be confusing people reading your words.

You might remember I told you to demonstrate that this is circular reasoning by showing us the circle.

A circular reasoning process for authority would identify an authority that once again pointed its finger back at another authority. There is none here. The search for authority in the Catholic Church ends in Jesus. Jesus does not point His finger back at the Church. The Church carries on His authority in a linear fashion. We establish that in the gospels, when Jesus passed on his authority explicitly. Telling someone you have authority ends the search for authority. There is no circular reasoning involved.

The Protestant search for authority points at the Bible, but since the Bible must be interpreted by people, the Bible points back to the private interpreter. At this point the authority of the interpreter is called into question. In most cases, the only authority that interpreter has is that they’ve been taught by someone else. Follow the line of reasoning and you reach Martin Luther, who broke from the Church on the basis of his interpretation of the Bible. That is a circular establishemnt of authority.
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Your condescending attitude is not appreciated and its also not amusing. You dodge questions, you play dumb and you make unreasonable assumptions about others for which you have no basis. Face it, you have been backed into a corner for which you seem to have no answer. You bring up Martin Luther for the simple reason of demeaning him and attempting to make another silly stand for your church and another knock to Protestants. This surely isn’t how Jesus conducted himself nor is it how he would have us act. Enough with this.
 
CentralFLJames said:
Clearly if one wants a personal relationship with Jesus and wants to “get it all” then one needs to have a relationship with Jesus as a child, as son of man, as suffering servant, as priest, as prophet, as king, as savior and as brother etc. Many Catholics are very deeply spiritual and go well beyond the “I believe - hallelujah brother” sort of spirituality we see in various non-Catholic congregations. This is just an example of that deeper spirituality.

This begs the question how can non-Catholics have a full relationship with Jesus without knowing the infant Jesus since one can not know the infant Jesus without coming to know the infant Jesus as Mary did? This is a strong case for Marian devotional disciplines - focusing on the Gospel through the eyes of Mary and her life example.
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Amen! Hallelujah brother!

**Praise and Glory be to Jesus!
**
Heart of Jesus, Son of the Eternal Father, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, formed in the womb of the Virgin Mother by the Holy Ghost, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, united substantially with the word of God, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, of infinite majesty, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, holy temple of God, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, tabernacle of the Most High, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, house of God and gate of heaven, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, glowing furnace of charity, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, vessel of justice and love, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, full of goodness and love, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, abyss of all virtues, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, most worthy of all praise, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, king and center of all hearts, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, in whom are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, in whom dwelleth all the fullness of the Divinity, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, in whom the Father is well pleased, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, of whose fullness we have all received, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, desire of the everlasting hills, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, patient and rich in mercy, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, rich to all who invoke Thee, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, fount of life and holiness, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, propitiation for our sins, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, saturated with revilings, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, crushed for our iniquities, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, made obedient unto death, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, pierced with a lance, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, source of all consolation, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, our life and resurrection, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, our peace and reconciliation, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, victim for our sins, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, salvation of those who hope in Thee, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, hope of those who die in Thee, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, delight of all saints, have mercy on us.*

Jesus, splendor of the Father,
Jesus, brightness of eternal light.
Jesus, King of glory.
Jesus, sun of justice.
Jesus, Son of the Virgin Mary.
Jesus, most amiable.
Jesus, most admirable.
Jesus, the mighty God.
Jesus, Father of the world to come.
Jesus, angel of great counsel.
Jesus, most powerful.
Jesus, most patient.
Jesus, most obedient.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart.
Jesus, lover of chastity.
Jesus, lover of us.
Jesus, God of peace.
Jesus, author of life.
Jesus, example of virtues.
Jesus, zealous lover of souls.
Jesus, our God.
Jesus, our refuge.
Jesus, father of the poor.
Jesus, treasure of the faithful.
Jesus, good Shepherd.
Jesus, true light.
Jesus, eternal wisdom.
Jesus, infinite goodness.
Jesus, our way and our life.
Jesus, joy of Angels.
Jesus, King of the Patriarchs.
Jesus, Master of the Apostles.
Jesus, teacher of the Evangelists.
Jesus, strength of Martyrs.
Jesus, light of Confessors.
Jesus, purity of Virgins.
Jesus, crown of Saints.
 
codebilly said:
Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus, if so, with which Person of Jesus? The Infant Jesus? Jesus of the Nativity?

So you admit that you don’t have a personal relationship with the Infant Jesus or Jesus of the Nativity, yet to my comment:

You can’t approach , let alone embrace, Jesus of the Nativity without encountering Mary.

you say:

And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. - Luke 2:16

The bible therefore states that baby Jesus can only be found with Mary and Joseph.

Is that also “baloney” to you.

Will your clever logic and bible scholarship, and great knowledge
allow you to steal the Holy Infant away from the Blessed Virgin Mother and St. Joseph?

Herod tried the same, but he was not able to separate Jesus from Joseph and Mary’s care.

At least you admit that you don’t know Jesus in the Nativity.
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This is silly reasoning and proves nothing and you know it.
 
Napsack said:
This is silly reasoning and proves nothing and you know it.
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***And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension (reasoning), will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. ***- Phil 4:7

You can try to understand bible with the powers of your reason (i.e. interpretation). If you believe the human mind can understand God, then go right ahead.

Even if your mind is so great as Satan’s, “logical” speculations about the Word Made Flesh, will ultimately fail. Recall that the devil used clever arguments from scripture to tempt Jesus. Didn’t work did it?.

Your hard heart fails to recognize that only Mary (and those accompanying her) had love great enough to approach Jesus at the foot of the cross. All other ran away as they were not worthy to see the Blessed Savior as His eternally compassionate sacrificial self. Only the love of His Mother, the other women like her, and the only apostle with love as hers, were in attendance.

If you are willing to learn something, try then to understand the mood, the spiritual position, the holiness of the author of the old spiritual hymn, “Were you there when they crucified my Lord?”

The author says, “it causes me to tremble”. Why? Were they actually there?

The Life of Jesus is Living! He lives for ever and nothing of His Divine Life on Earth is mundane. To understand Jesus, is to know everything of Jesus, not only His ministry. For in fact, He ascended to the Father and will come again in Glory.

The Savior reveals what he wishes to reveal in secret, in the deep recesses of the heart, and these are so simple a “child can understand”.

Where is the simplicity of Bible study arguments that children can understand?

But in the Holy Catholic Church, and the Communion of saints, we renounce whole heartedly lofty interpretations of the Holy Gospels.

We, rather, cling to the humility of Mary, the simplicity of the saints, who preserve and defend the Church against all attacks, by the Power of their Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings, who Rules over everything.

To quote once again, a Doctor of the Church, St. Teresa the Little Flower, :

Happy dewdrop, known to God alone, think not of the rushing torrents of this world! Envy not even the crystal stream which winds among the meadows. The ripple of its waters is sweet indeed, but it can be heard by creatures. Besides, the Field-flower could never contain it in its cup. One must be so little to draw near to Jesus, and few are the souls that aspire to be little and unknown. “Are not the river and the brook,” they urge, “of more use than a dewdrop? Of what avail is it? Its only purpose is to refresh for one moment some poor little field-flower.” Ah! They little know the true Flower of the field. Did they know Him they would understand better Our Lord’s reproach to Martha. Our Beloved needs neither our brilliant deeds nor our beautiful thoughts. Were He in search of lofty ideas, has He not His Angels, whose knowledge infinitely surpasses that of the greatest genius of earth? Neither intellect nor other talents has He come to seek among us. . . . He has become the Flower of the field to show how much He loves simplicity. The Lily of the valley_ asks but a single dewdrop, which for one night shall rest in its cup, hidden from all human eyes. But when the shadows shall begin to fade, when the Flower of the field shall have become the _Sun of Justice,then the dewdrop–the humble sharer of His exile–will rise up to Him as love’s vapour
 
CentralFLJames said:
As they say, to be a Protestant is to be ignorant of church history. As soon as anyone shows a Protestant the writings of the early church fathers from the first 2 or so centuries it becomes unassailably clear that the early church was as Catholic then as it is today and the bible was a fruit of the Catholic Church. The Church begot the Bible. The Bible did not beget the Church. Therefor its only logical that The Catholic Church is the ONLY authority on the bible - everyone else is an illigitimate pretender with no authority whatsoever to teach the teacher.

The whole “bible war” thing where Protestants come in 1,400 years late to try to hijack the bible and say its “their baby” reminds me oh so much of the story in 1 Kings 3:16-28. This is the account of Solomon’s difficult case of judging who’s baby belongs to which mother - the true mother or the impostor mother.

As it relates to the OP we have various and assorted false mothers here trying to make the baby (the Bible) speak a new dialect to condemn the real mother as an impostor. But what these all fail to account for is the simple fact that there is a Father in all of this too and the Father has been with the mother from the very beginning and also knows His own child. It should be no surprise then that The Judge also happens to be the Father and in His wrath at discovering the impostor has drawn his sword to cleave the impostor into 30,000 or more pieces and left the baby whole. Such is the fate of all who would attempt to usurp the authority of The Church - its unbelievably arrogant as well as suicidal.

James
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Now that is a nice analogy, James! :clapping:

Catholics can reasonably cite the Scriptures to confirm the Marian dogmas notwithstanding the question of final authority. Protestants have yet to reasonably show that the Marian dogmas contravene the Word of God in accordance with the Spirit of the word. But they never will because they can’t. Sacred Scripture reflects a living Sacred Tradition of the Church which originates with the Holy Spirit’s descent upon the Apostles at Pentecost and continues to grow and develop in understanding through the ages with the assistance of the same Holy Spirit. Meanwhile the Scriptures serve to aid us in our increased understanding of the deeds brought to pass by God in the history of salvation by becoming clearer to us in our growth of understanding under the protective guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles experienced the same thing in their continual growth of understanding as they referred back to the Old Testament to confirm their faith in Jesus and belief in what God has accomplished in human history.

As a Catholic, I would never dare presume to correct a devout Hindu in his interpretation of the Baghavad-Gita, since I have no part in the Hindu tradition that produced this Holy book.

“Now the cause, in all the points previously enumerated, of the false opinions, and of the impious statements or ignorant assertions about God, appears to be nothing else than the not understanding the Scripture according to its spiritual meaning, but the interpretation of it agreeably to the mere letter. And, therefore, to those who believe that the sacred books are not the compositions of men, but that they were composed by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, agreeably to the will of the Father through Jesus Christ, and that they have come down to us, we [the Episcopacy] must point out the ways of interpreting them which appear correct to us, who cling to the standard of the heavenly Church of Jesus Christ according to the succession of the apostles.”
Origen, First Principles, 4, 1:9 (A.D. 230)

“But in learning the Faith and professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures…Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which ye now receive, and right them and the table of your heart.”
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 5:12 (A.D. 347)

“This Virgin Mother of the only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.”
Origen, Homily 1 (A.D. 244)

“Mary is like Eve before her fall. Eve, before her corruption, did not have original sin.” [para.]
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 12:29 (A.D. 347)

PAX :harp:
 
codebilly said:
***And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension (reasoning), will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. ***- Phil 4:7

You can try to understand bible with the powers of your reason (i.e. interpretation). If you believe the human mind can understand God, then go right ahead.
Care to read Scripture and see how it is Christians are supposed to read it and understand it?
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Napsack:
Dear Napsack,

You are taking the position that you can know all about Jesus without Mary.

If that were the case, then what prevents you from publishing your own bible and removing Mary from the bible? For that matter, remove the apostles while you are at it.

I am sincerely trying to give you love of Jesus as Mary love Him in the womb.

If you sincerely and deeply meditate on the Annunciation , wherein the Angel proclaims that Mary is with the Child Jesus, you will understand that you too are welcome to experience the Joy of exchanging love with the fetal Jesus.

The women, previously on this forum thread, arguing against Marian devotion have left the thread because they understand more intimately, the unbounded, unconditional love that a mother has for her unborn child she carries within her.

Mothers also know, that the child they carry, loves them back and they immerse themselves in this loving exchange. Which is why you see an expectant mother Joyful and glowing.

The experience of sharing the news of the expectant mother is filled with Joy.

The experience of loving a newborn for a Mother is also most ecstatic.

The beginning of the History of salvation starts with the Annunciation. Jesus is there and alive as much in those passages of Scripture that the Holy Evangelists, as guided by the Holy Spirit, included.

The Child Jesus remains forever a perfect and incomprehensible gift to humanity.

For whatever reason, you are thinking I am trying to prove by scripture a justification for Marian devotion.

I am not. There is no need to comment on or interpret what the Holy Evangelists set forth regarding the Incarnation, the Visitation, and the Nativity of Jesus. He is there! He lives!

And He is found there with Mary!
 
Napsack said:
Your condescending attitude is not appreciated and its also not amusing. You dodge questions, you play dumb and you make unreasonable assumptions about others for which you have no basis. Face it, you have been backed into a corner for which you seem to have no answer. You bring up Martin Luther for the simple reason of demeaning him and attempting to make another silly stand for your church and another knock to Protestants. This surely isn’t how Jesus conducted himself nor is it how he would have us act. Enough with this.
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Napsack, I really think you need to go take a break or something. Angels Unaware’s comments were very objective, fair and not in the least insulting or condescending. Then in the same breath to say you have him maneuvered into a corner is as contradictory in the furry of whining complaint as it is in fact.

Really - I think you need to perhaps take some time of and settle down and consider a bit of what has been presented to you here rather than taking things so personal.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
Napsack, I really think you need to go take a break or something. Angels Unaware’s comments were very objective, fair and not in the least insulting or condescending. Then in the same breath to say you have him maneuvered into a corner is as contradictory in the furry of whining complaint as it is in fact.

Really - I think you need to perhaps take some time of and settle down and consider a bit of what has been presented to you here rather than taking things so personal.

James
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Boy, aren’t you just the pot calling the kettle black. You could have been told o take it easy on several occasions. This is a joke.😊
 
codebilly said:
You don’t know Him? Again, at least you admit to not knowing the Divine Infant Jesus.
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I repeat my earlier question: do you still stand behind your previous statement as you wrote it originally?
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codebilly:
The bible therefore states that baby Jesus can only be found with Mary and Joseph.
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(emphasis added)
 
codebilly said:
Yes. See Luke 2
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Luke 2 actually disproves your statement-it shows Jesus in the Bible in Jerusalem while His parents were elsewhere (since they had to return to Jerusalem to get Him, they had to be somewhere else).

That pesky reason, it makes things complicated, doesn’t it? 😉
 
Non_Serviam said:
I repeat my earlier question: do you still stand behind your previous statement as you wrote it originally?

(emphasis added)
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If you are in a relationship with Jesus (that means not in grave sin and baptised) you can ask Him to reveal “the child Jesus to you”. He will be happy to and he will introduce you to Mary (and Joseph too). The entire rosary is all about contemplative meditation on the gospel - mostly seeing the gospel and Christ through the eyes of Mary. This is why the rosary is so popular with those who want to further develop a deeper relationship with Jesus. It is also our belief that this is also a means to receive additional special graces that not all receive as Jesus extends these to specially honor His mother.

Every Marian devotion is Christo-centric and intended to deepen the relationship with Christ by motivating one to come ever deeper into Christ and to give us progressively more grace and inner sanctification to speed the soul in its perfection.

We also have special devotions to other aspects of Christ identity and relationship to His People at large - through the Sacred Heart of Jesus devotionals and to His Divine Mercy etc. This is all part of a Catholic’s means to come deeper and deeper into Christ as we practice various devotionals and develop a truly “whole Jesus” relation with Him rather than just a superficial lip-service sort of easy believism. Catholics have a wide array of special devotionals we have received from the saints to help us to progress in our realtionship with Jesus during our spiritual journey.

I am frankly surprised that no one here has so far yet to bemoan Catholics for venerating Jesus’ heart too as some kind of strange idolatry.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
If you are in a relationship with Jesus (that means not in grave sin and baptised) you can ask Him to reveal “the child Jesus to you”. He will be happy to and he will introduce you to Mary (and Joseph too). The entire rosary is all about contemplative meditation on the gospel - mostly seeing the gospel and Christ through the eyes of Mary. This is why the rosary is so popular with those who want to further develop a deeper relationship with Jesus. It is also our belief that this is also a means to receive additional special graces that not all receive as Jesus extends these to specially honor His mother.

Every Marian devotion is Christo-centric and intended to deepen the relationship with Christ by motivating one to come ever deeper into Christ and to give us progressively more grace and inner sanctification to speed the soul in its perfection.

We also have special devotions to other aspects of Christ identity and relationship to His People at large - through the Sacred Heart of Jesus devotionals and to His Divine Mercy etc. This is all part of a Catholic’s means to come deeper and deeper into Christ as we practice very devotionals and develop a truly “whole Jesus” relation with Him rather than just a superficial lip-service sort of easy believism.

I am frankly surprised that no one here has so far yet to bemoan Catholics for venerating Jesus’ heart too as some kind of strange idolatry.
Why? Jesus is divine isn’t he?
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Non_Serviam said:
Luke 2 actually disproves your statement-it shows Jesus in the Bible in Jerusalem while His parents were elsewhere (since they had to return to Jerusalem to get Him, they had to be somewhere else).

That pesky reason, it makes things complicated, doesn’t it? 😉
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This is just so obviously true. I couldn’t have said it better myself.:rotfl:
 
CentralFLJames said:
If you are in a relationship with Jesus (that means not in grave sin and baptised) you can ask Him to reveal “the child Jesus to you”. He will be happy to and he will introduce you to Mary (and Joseph too). The entire rosary is all about contemplative meditation on the gospel - mostly seeing the gospel and Christ through the eyes of Mary. This is why the rosary is so popular with those who want to further develop a deeper relationship with Jesus. It is also our belief that this is also a means to receive additional special graces that not all receive as Jesus extends these to specially honor His mother.

Every Marian devotion is Christo-centric and intended to deepen the relationship with Christ by motivating one to come ever deeper into Christ and to give us progressively more grace and inner sanctification to speed the soul in its perfection.

We also have special devotions to other aspects of Christ identity and relationship to His People at large - through the Sacred Heart of Jesus devotionals and to His Divine Mercy etc. This is all part of a Catholic’s means to come deeper and deeper into Christ as we practice very devotionals and develop a truly “whole Jesus” relation with Him rather than just a superficial lip-service sort of easy believism.

I am frankly surprised that no one here has so far yet to bemoan Catholics for venerating Jesus’ heart too as some kind of strange idolatry.

James
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James,

You have intellectual ability-I know that you recognize that codebilly’s statement is poorly formed, to put it charitably. Yet rather than encourage him to greater precision with the revelation of God, you instead proffer alternative explanations that seek to ignore the plain meaning of his words.

I’ve asked him more than once if he wanted to restate what he said and he’s chosen not to-people will therefore evaluate his other statements in light of this one.

As to my meeting Mary and Joseph, it is something I look forward to once I reach Heaven, they are part of that “cloud of witnesses” all believers will be able to commune with.

As for the other devotions-the Catholic church teaches that they are to your benefit and you accept the authority of the Catholic church so there is no issue of conscience for you.

As for the Sacred Heart, it is Jesus, so I would think most Protestants (who I’m not in a position to speak for) would be less troubled by it than by some other devotions.
 
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