To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[Roman_Catholic_1]

From the Catechism:

266 “Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal” (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, “You cannot serve God and mammon.” Many martyrs died for not adoring “the Beast” refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.

So here is where we are at; Catholics are certain that we do not worship Mary. Non-Catholics are certain that they have witnessed Catholics worshiping Mary.

Perhaps the answer is that there may be Catholics who worship Mary, but those who do are going against Catholic teaching and breaking the 1st commandment.

After all there are Catholics who support abortion, gay marriage (so on and so forth) which are also against Church teachings.

Maybe the thread title should read The Catholic Church does not teach Mary Worship?

God bless

 

[Always_For_Him]

So then the Catholic church has no authority. Got ya.

If the Catholic Church, which IS the Church of the magisterium, who ARE the successors to the Apostles don’t have any Authority, then what Church has Authority? Jesus clearly set up an authoritative assembly and gave them His Authority and promise to guide and protect His Church. So, if it is not the Catholic Church that has been in existence since Pentecost, AND the Church that penned the Bible, then what Church is it?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Why? Jesus is divine isn’t he?

Please don’t ask me to account for all the irrational anti-Catholics minds that are out there slandering Catholics every day. It’s beyond all reason.

To me its almost exactly the same thing as calling Catholics idol worshippers for simply honoring Jesus’ mother. Why can’t people see that Jesus is Divine and that He honored His mother in Revelation by crowning her Queen of Heaven and in His Divinity it would be impossible for Him to mistake veneration and honor intended for His mother as a substitute for His worship? Anyone calling themselves Catholic MUST go to Church (and wants to go to Church) EVERY Sunday to WORSHIP Jesus and God in the Holy Mass. Thus any Catholic that venerates Mary in prayer pragmatically can never really over-venerate her as long as they also go to mass each Sunday to worship God. Well intended veneration no matter how robust can never attain to a level of worship if one is also regularly worshiping in the Holy Mass.

The ONLY true worship anyone can give to God is giving Jesus to God in the representation of Jesus on the Cross to God – just as we Catholics do in the Catholic Mass - EVERYDAY of the week. Every Catholic near a parish can worship God daily in mass.

The Catholic Mass is the highest worship that humanity can give to God therefor no Christian prayer ever approaches to a stature of “worship” on its own (unless perhaps when said in a high state of grace before the Eucharist in adoration). Even the most intense private prayers to God or Jesus can never really get beyond hyperdulia (high veneration) without the Eucharist being present. It takes the supernatural and mystical nature of the mass for any of us to truly worship God and attain true Latria.

This is why I say I do not believe that any Protestant ever truly worships God since the standard of the Catholic Mass with the Holy Eucharist transcends all other forms of worship to God and renders simple prayer to the realm of veneration (which of course God also accepts as part of His relationship with us - but it does not merit the same grace). But prayer alone is wholly inadequate and unacceptable as a sole means of worship of God given that there is available the true sacrifice of the mass.

James

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Just one change I’d make, James (lest you hear further charges against you of being 'antiProtestant") and that would be to change “no Protestant ever truly worships God” to “no Protestant ever FULLY worships God.”

Some people (naming no names) would take offense at your first statement as implying that they are false and idolatrous in their worship which is not at all what you mean, especially in the context of your post, but let’s try to make it absolutely crystal clear. Yes, Protestants worship God. . .No, by the nature of their being ‘protesting’ against the True Faith they cannot FULLY worship God. Some have more fullness by virtue of their particular church having more correct teachings; some have more fullness, even if their church teaches incorrect teachings as truth, simply because they personally follow Christ despite the flaws in said Church teachings.

Thus we can see a Jehovah witness, for example, who sincerely and truly follows so many ‘correct’ teachings such as love of God, adherence to the commandments, and help of neighbor, being ‘more full’ in worship despite some of the very incorrect teachings of his church, whereas we might find an Episcopalian or Lutheran, with much more correct doctrinal truth, who is personally lax in the performance of his Christian duties and contemptuous of the doctrine, and thus being ‘less full’ in worship despite having more correct teachings in his church than the Jehovah witness.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Just one change I’d make, James (lest you hear further charges against you of being 'antiProtestant") and that would be to change “no Protestant ever truly worships God” to “no Protestant ever FULLY worships God.”

I am simply Catholic. If that means “anti-Protestant” to someone that’s their own insecurity problem and does not overly concern. I don’t define myself by The Church’s enemies or it’s detractors; nor should any Catholic.

With respect to your suggestion of changing the phrase. In my semantic “True” forms an equivalent semantic with “Full” in the expression. So I don’t really see in the reformulation of my statement any differentiation in the words at all. By “True” I mean exactly “True” in the purest sense - attaining the higest possible worship that is acceptable to God.

Anything less than pure, that is, giving God anything less than Jesus himself, is not “True” worship. Rather, if it is presented as worship rather than veneration then it is an impure “blemished” worship. In the Catholic taxonomy of honor that at best falls short of worship and at best reasonable doubt is only hyperdulia – but not Latria.

God wants true worshipers.

*Tobit 14:6-7
All the nations of the world shall be converted and shall offer God true worship; all shall abandon their idols which have deceitfully led them into error, and shall bless the God of the ages in righteousness.

Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts. *

We Catholics know that The Church and its members make the pure offering in the mass every day, from east to west from sunrise to sunset all around the world. It is possible that a person’s individual participation in that true worship can be less that “true” worship if they are not in grace or not giving themselves completely. But nevertheless, the Body of Christ, that is The Church, still collectively offers up to God the perfect “True” sacrifice. This is another benefit of being in a Church of individually imperfect worshippers since the overall sacrifice of the mass is always acceptable to God.

So I don’t think Catholics need to be shy from speaking the truth just to prevent others from feeling jealous or insecure about what they think they bring to the altar of the Lord. The Incense that Protestants might bring to The Lord through prayer is fine but where’s the rest?
JPII -- Fragment of Message spoken at World Youth Day at Castel Gandolfo (August 6:

*“Opening their treasures they [Magi] offered Him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh” (Mt 2:11). *

The gifts that the Magi offered the Messiah symbolized true worship. With gold, they emphasized His Royal Godhead; with incense, they acknowledged Him as the priest of the New Covenant; by offering Him myrrh, they celebrated the prophet who would shed His own blood to reconcile humanity with the Father.

More Here: usccb.org/laity/youth/august6letter.shtml

In this age of political correctness where so many suffer a fragile self esteem caused by sin and error in conflict with conscience I suppose its sometimes worth the extra effort to try to find equivalent words in cases like this. That is, as long as it does not give the impression one is capitulating or lacks conviction. Yes, certainly, common sense tells us that calmer minds are more easily convinced through reason. But a mind bent on attacking The Church and the truth is not rational and does not want to entertain pandering. It only wants to continue to slander and will continue to do so until it is wrestled to the ground with the truth and humbled. Some of us are made to wrestle, some of us are made to appeal to reason and some of us are made adaptable and equally ambidextrous.

I have admitted an equivalence on the two terms “True” and “Full” in this context. Feel free to substitute on my behalf. But I’d rather reform it with my own words. How about:

“No non-Catholic can ever worship God in the fullness of Truth and with the purity and sincerity He desires while he is in conflict or in protest with God and His Church”.

Better brother?

James

 

[Roy5]

PROTESTANTS AND WORSHIP OF GOD

This nonsense of Protestants not worshiping God is one reason some Protestants have such negative feelings toward the Church. They see Catholicism as bigoted by its very nature, unwilling to recognize that other religions truly worship the Divine. I'm not referring only to Protestants, but to such people of faith as Jews, Muslims, and others. 

 Prejudice is a serious sin, certainly in light of Christ's primary commandments which are to love God and love one another. To be so arrogant as to claim that the sincere worship offered to God by others is somehow invalid or even of lesser value is silly, among other things. I embrace Christianity rather tightly myself, but I won't sit in judgment on the faith of others. I'll leave that up to God.

  No offense, but the haughty and pompous spiritual conceit I find in many postings is quite obnoxious. I suspect that if you make it to heaven Christ will lecture you on proper humility. He will lecture many Protestants at the same time, I'm sure, and on the same subject. 

   If we have the correct faith we are blessed by God and not of our own doing. Millions have never had the opportunity that has come our way.  Let us be humble rather than swagger and be insolent. As for myself, I suspect that the Lord examines our hearts - our love of him and one another - and not our church affiliation. Catholic, Baptist, Episcopal, Jewish, Buddhist - just labels.

   By the way, the Jehovah Witnesses are not Protestants. Neither are the Mormons. But I have decided that many of the Catholics I know are really Protestants. They want the freedom to think, agree or disagree with the church on, say, birth control, or even on a doctrine here and there rather than simply salute. I think hard-line Catholics are unintentional enemies of the Church because they alienate believers with their narrow perspective and harshness.

 

[CentralFLJames]

PROTESTANTS AND WORSHIP OF GOD

This nonsense of Protestants not worshiping God is one reason some Protestants have such negative feelings toward the Church. They see Catholicism as bigoted by its very nature, unwilling to recognize that other religions truly worship the Divine. I'm not referring only to Protestants, but to such people of faith as Jews, Muslims, and others. 

 Prejudice is a serious sin, certainly in light of Christ's primary commandments which are to love God and love one another. To be so arrogant as to claim that the sincere worship offered to God by others is somehow invalid or even of lesser value is silly, among other things. I embrace Christianity rather tightly myself, but I won't sit in judgment on the faith of others. I'll leave that up to God.

  No offense, but the haughty and pompous spiritual conceit I find in many postings is quite obnoxious. I suspect that if you make it to heaven Christ will lecture you on proper humility. He will lecture many Protestants at the same time, I'm sure, and on the same subject. 

   If we have the correct faith we are blessed by God and not of our own doing. Millions have never had the opportunity that has come our way.  Let us be humble rather than swagger and be insolent. As for myself, I suspect that the Lord examines our hearts - our love of him and one another - and not our church affiliation. Catholic, Baptist, Episcopal, Jewish, Buddhist - just labels.

   By the way, the Jehovah Witnesses are not Protestants. Neither are the Mormons. But I have decided that many of the Catholics I know are really Protestants. They want the freedom to think, agree or disagree with the church on, say, birth control, or even on a doctrine here and there rather than simply salute. I think hard-line Catholics are unintentional enemies of the Church because they alienate believers with their narrow perspective and harshness.

Roy, we seem to have a little logic problem here. I guess you have forgotten the simple fact that Protestants used to be Catholics. Do you really think that anyone left the Catholic church in “protest” over the Church’s lack of respecting their lack of proper worship before they left?? Don’t you think you have the baby before the mother here?

The first recorded use of the word “bigot” in English happens after the Protestant revolution in 1598. It meant “a superstitious hypocrite.” Over the ensuing years after liberalization of religion and humanistic theories started to contend with orthodox Christianity is came to mean “a person who stubbornly holds to their own opinions”. To apply the term bigot with out simultaneously making oneself an axiomatic hypocrite one must be speaking from a context of infallable fact rather than just two competing opinions.

Since Protestantism is by definition “in protest” to what Catholics have long consider to be an objective truth (2,000 years now) Catholics do not consider it bigoted to correct those who have an opinionated faith - certainly not a faith that defines itself in terms of opposition to another. Think it about it. All protestants are made “bigots” anytime they call Catholics the same. In case you can’t follow that - you just announced yourself as as a bigot for refusing to let Catholics have their own opinions (which for us are objective truth).

If truth was multi-varied then God had no choice but to accept Cain and Abel’s sacrifice as equal. Of course you know that no one can force God to accept error. So how is it that you want to make Catholics accept your error of poly-truths when its a self-contradiction?

In your world everyone who does not respect contradiction is a bigot. That means in your world there are is no such thing as objective truth and no choice as to what we may chose to respect. In your world we must respect the devil’s opinion to avoid being called a bigot. In your world there is neither truth nor lie.

Sorry - I can’t respect your opinion and if that makes me a bigot in your eyes I will take it as a compliment.

James

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No non-Catholic can ever worship God in the fullness of Truth and with the purity and sincerity He desires while he is in conflict or in protest with God and His Church".

Better brother?

You explained it well, James, as I knew you would. Yes, maybe it is time to stick to clear words and not be backed into being PC. . .Heaven knows we suffer as it is with having words like “pray” hijacked and given a new meaning which outright contradicts the original one. . .

Other than that, it’s “Sister”. Five years ago when I first joined CAF I never thought much about making the username reflective of my gender. At this late date I probably can’t go back and do my name in pink, alas!

 

[Napsack]

If the Catholic Church, which IS the Church of the magisterium, who ARE the successors to the Apostles don’t have any Authority, then what Church has Authority? Jesus clearly set up an authoritative assembly and gave them His Authority and promise to guide and protect His Church. So, if it is not the Catholic Church that has been in existence since Pentecost, AND the Church that penned the Bible, then what Church is it?

Let’s just suffice it to say that you weren’t part of this conversation and leave it at that.

 

[codebilly]

Luke 2 actually disproves your statement-it shows Jesus in the Bible in Jerusalem while His parents were elsewhere (since they had to return to Jerusalem to get Him, they had to be somewhere else).

That pesky reason, it makes things complicated, doesn’t it?

If you read my post carefully, I specifically referred to the "baby Jesus". You will note that I emphasized the 3 episodes of the Holy Infant reflected in the Rosary’s Joyful Mysteries. Namely, the Annunciation, the Visitation, and the Nativity.

Not complicated at all. What is more simple than a mother’s love for her infant child?

 

[Napsack]

I am simply Catholic. If that means “anti-Protestant” to someone that’s their own insecurity problem and does not overly concern. I don’t define myself by The Church’s enemies or it’s detractors; nor should any Catholic.

With respect to your suggestion of changing the phrase. In my semantic “True” forms an equivalent semantic with “Full” in the expression. So I don’t really see in the reformulation of my statement any differentiation in the words at all. By “True” I mean exactly “True” in the purest sense - attaining the higest possible worship that is acceptable to God.

Anything less than pure, that is, giving God anything less than Jesus himself, is not “True” worship. Rather, if it is presented as worship rather than veneration then it is an impure “blemished” worship. In the Catholic taxonomy of honor that at best falls short of worship and at best reasonable doubt is only hyperdulia – but not Latria.

God wants true worshipers.

Tobit 14:6-7
All the nations of the world shall be converted and shall offer God true worship; all shall abandon their idols which have deceitfully led them into error, and shall bless the God of the ages in righteousness.

Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

We Catholics know that The Church and its members make the pure offering in the mass every day, from east to west from sunrise to sunset all around the world. It is possible that a person’s individual participation in that true worship can be less that “true” worship if they are not in grace or not giving themselves completely. But nevertheless, the Body of Christ, that is The Church, still collectively offers up to God the perfect “True” sacrifice. This is another benefit of being in a Church of individually imperfect worshippers since the overall sacrifice of the mass is always acceptable to God.

So I don’t think Catholics need to be shy from speaking the truth just to prevent others from feeling jealous or insecure about what they think they bring to the altar of the Lord. The Incense that Protestants might bring to The Lord through prayer is fine but where’s the rest?

In this age of political correctness where so many suffer a fragile self esteem caused by sin and error in conflict with conscience I suppose its sometimes worth the extra effort to try to find equivalent words in cases like this. That is, as long as it does not give the impression one is capitulating or lacks conviction. Yes, certainly, common sense tells us that calmer minds are more easily convinced through reason. But a mind bent on attacking The Church and the truth is not rational and does not want to entertain pandering. It only wants to continue to slander and will continue to do so until it is wrestled to the ground with the truth and humbled. Some of us are made to wrestle, some of us are made to appeal to reason and some of us are made adaptable and equally ambidextrous.

I have admitted an equivalence on the two terms “True” and “Full” in this context. Feel free to substitute on my behalf. But I’d rather reform it with my own words. How about:

“No non-Catholic can ever worship God in the fullness of Truth and with the purity and sincerity He desires while he is in conflict or in protest with God and His Church”.

Better brother?

James

James, I get that you don’t wish to entertain anything that comes from the mind and heart of a Protestant. I also get that you at least profess that we Protestants do not truly worship God. I get the fact that not one Protestant here can make any kind of a statement without being rebunked by you. I get the fact that you personally go far beyond what the Catholic church teaches and rebuke Protestant’s accord with God. I get all that James, but the thing is, I don’t care what you think. I don’t give a hoot that you believe that I am an invalid speck of wanna be God’s people trash here on earth that will be bound fro hell eventually. I don’t care one bit about any of that. C.S. Lewis once said that in the end it isn’t going to matter what you did, but only who you are with. I know who I am with James. Do you? I mean truly, do you?? I know the God of Abraham, Isaic, Jacob and Sarah, Rebecca and Rachael. Do you?

 

[codebilly]

I’ve asked him more than once if he wanted to restate what he said and he’s chosen not to-people will therefore evaluate his other statements in light of this one.

Throughout this thread, I’ve posted a reference to Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic letter, ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE. In this important letter, he states:

Mary constantly sets before the faithful the “mysteries” of her Son, with the desire that* the contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power**. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community** enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary**.*

Just please try to witness the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ, through the eyes of Mary!

If you don’t want to accept this great and Holy gift, then you are free to say so, whether directly , or by clever argument.

I certainly know, I can offer extensive scriptural reference, from both NT and OT, complete with elaborate purport.

But, my words can only detract from the splendor of Mary’s loving devotion to God.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Let’s just suffice it to say that you weren’t part of this conversation and leave it at that.

Well gosh nap - that means all of us are out of luck since none os us was personally there to hear that conversation and there are no real binding covenants that extend from generation to generation that pertain to us - right?

Depending on how you answer I might see how easily The Reformers imagined and rationalized there was no concept of a covenant nor any handed down authority that God vested in anyone and how they assumed mob rule was as good as any kind of rule and there was nothing to prevent anyone from stealing the kingdom by force. Funny how they never saw these verses though:

*John 10:1
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. "

John 21:16
He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.” *

The only exception I know of a theif successfully stealing heaven was when the good thief on the cross still practicing his only craft of thievery finally just stole Jesus’ heart and asked him if He would let him into the kingdom. How ironic that people have to try to take heaven my revolution and illicit break-ins rather than just thinking to knock politely and asking for admission with the gatekeeper…

James

 

[codebilly]

General Comments and Questions to those on this thread opposed to Marian devotion.

I think the Song of Solomon presents a very serious problem for Christians opposed to Marian devotion.

Who, in the Song of Solomon, is the Beloved? Who, in the Song of Solomon is the Lover?

I think that any Protestant scholar must agree, that the Lover (male) must be God.

Then who is the beloved (female)?

If, by some conclusion, anyone say that it is Mary, then Song of Solomon certainly states that she has captured the heart of God.

In fact, she has charmed Him and captivated Him. So much so, that is it accurate to say that He worships her?

Who is the beloved?

 

[codebilly]

General Comments and Questions to those on this thread opposed to Marian devotion.

I think the Song of Solomon presents a very serious problem for Christians opposed to Marian devotion.

Who, in the Song of Solomon, is the Beloved? Who, in the Song of Solomon is the Lover?

I think that any Protestant scholar must agree, that the Lover (male) must be God.

Then who is the beloved (female)?

If, by some conclusion, anyone say that it is Mary, then Song of Solomon certainly states that she has captured the heart of God. In fact, she has charmed Him and captivated Him.

Can one conclude by Song of Solomon, that the Lover worships the beloved?

Who is the beloved?

 

[codebilly]

General Comments and Questions to those on this thread opposed to Marian devotion.

I think the Song of Solomon presents a very serious problem for Christians opposed to Marian devotion.

Who, in the Song of Solomon, is the Beloved? Who, in the Song of Solomon is the Lover?

I think that any Protestant scholar must agree, that the Lover (male) must be God.

Then who is the beloved (female)?

If, by some conclusion, anyone say that it is Mary, then Song of Solomon certainly states that she has captured the heart of God.

In fact, she has charmed Him and captivated Him. So much so, that is it accurate to say that He worships her?

Who is the beloved?

Also, I remind our protestant brethren, that the Song of Solomon is the Word of God.

 

[codebilly]

Based on some of your previous posts I heartily concur with your above statement.

Again, to point out to both of you (Non Serviam and Napsack), my post said “baby Jesus”, and in context of highlighting the 3 Joyful Mysteries: Annunciation, Visitation, Nativity, wherein Jesus “appears” as an Divine Infant, even if hidden in the womb of Mary.

I really don’t understand why you find it so hard to “look through the eyes of Mary”.

Her eyes are the purest and have the clearest view of the Christ Child. The deep recesses of her heart hold the treasure of true Christian charity.

Marian devotion is so easy and simple.

When one catches mere glimpse of Mary’s love for God, the Glorious Rays of His Love obliterate the senses, and pierce the heart.

These Glorious Rays are none other than the garment worn by Jesus in His Splendor. Mary’s heart is a mirror of Love of God so great, that we can only hope to catch a single ray.

 

[codebilly]

Mary Mirror of Justice

(*1) MARY, you are called the Mirror of Justice because you are the most excellent Model of the love of God. The whole divine law rests upon the great commandment of charity—love of God, of oneself, and of our neighbor. In your whole life is reflected, as in a mirror, perfect love of God.

The love that burned in the hearts of the saints cannot be compared with yours. No creature was so devoted to God as you were; none observed His commandments as perfectly as you did. Your whole life was a proof that the will of God was dearer to you than all else, and that you were prepared to die rather than disobey His commands. When a certain woman lifted up her voice from the crowd and said to Jesus, “Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the breasts that nursed thee,” He answered in your praise, “Rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it” (Luke 11,27).

(2) MARY, your love for yourself was also conformed to God’s will. You took care of the salvation of your own soul first, as Jesus spoke of the other Mary in the Gospel: “Mary has chosen the best part, and it will not be taken away from her” (Luke 10,42). God was your choice at all times, and serving Him was your daily food, so that you could say with your loving Son, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me, to accomplish his work” (John 4,34).

How well you understood and practiced His teaching: “What does it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, but suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?” (Matt. 16,26). “Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice, for they shall be satisfied” (Matt. 5,4). No one ever desired self-sanctification as much as you did. You never tired of striving for virtue. God, in return, poured upon your soul the rich fullness of His graces.

All the virtues were reflected in your soul as in a mirror: humility, chastity, meekness, patience, mercy, faith, hope, charity. In order to preserve and increase sanctifying grace, you availed yourself of every means of grace with zeal and earnestness. You are truly blessed because of your hunger and thirst for holiness, for God has given you a fullness of His graces that made you “blessed among women.”

(3) MARY, you are the most excellent Model of the love of neighbor. Since love of neighbor is in proportion to our love of God, and since no creature has ever loved God so much as you loved Him, no one has ever loved his neighbor more than you did. During your life upon earth you used every opportunity to do good; and now that you are enthroned in heaven, your love for us is even greater, and you shower upon us your choicest blessings. You have at heart especially the spiritual welfare of all, even the most unfortunate sinners, and you obtain for us numberless graces for the salvation of our souls.

Mirror of Justice, help me ever to admire and imitate all your virtues, for then I shall be more like Jesus, your Son, who is the Model of all perfection. You are a perfect image of your Son. Lead me to that degree of holiness which God has destined for me. Give me a hunger and thirst for holiness that I may find my truest joy in God on earth and my everlasting bliss with Him in heaven.

PRAYER

Through Your mercy, O Lord, and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, may Your Church increase in the number of the faithful and ever shine forth in the manifold light of virtue. Through Christ our Lord. Amen. (Feast of Our Lady, Queen of the Apostles, Sat. after the Ascension)*

Mirror of Justice

From Litany of Loreto

 

[CentralFLJames]

James, I get that you don’t wish to entertain anything that comes from the mind and heart of a Protestant.
…

I don’t give a hoot that you believe that I am an invalid speck of wanna be God’s people trash here on earth that will be bound fro hell eventually. I don’t care one bit about any of that. C.S. Lewis once said that in the end it isn’t going to matter what you did, but only who you are with. I know who I am with James. Do you? I mean truly, do you?? I know the God of Abraham, Isaic, Jacob and Sarah, Rebecca and Rachael. Do you?

No, nap, you don’t “get” what I am saying. And you are overextending what I am saying. I actually do care what Protestants think and especially what they say in public about Catholics. If I did not I would not be an apologist. And believe it or not I do not hate a single Protestant as a person but I do abhor the general error of the Protestant heresy since I am acutely aware of the damage it has inflicted on The Church and am horrified to imagine how many are likely in hell because of it. It’s absolutely tragic what harm Protestantism has done to Christianity – but it’s all divine providence and therefore must somehow lead to a greater good since Christ has promised us that Satan would not prevail over His Church.

Believe it or not some of my best friends are Protestants - as confused as they are in their good natured and fundamentalist understanding that will not permit them to consider examining actual church history or anything not contained in the bible (such as where the bible really comes from). We often play cards and board games and do dinners together. I have to put up with an occasional complaint about us Catholics not being biblical - but his wife and her friends are great cooks so its easy to tolerate the occasional snipe. What is more fun though is seeing the looks of confusion and panic when I ask them where in their bibles it tells them that any of it is God’s word or where the bible gives its own manifest of what books are supposed to be in the bible. It’s perhaps unfair that I spring these questions on them just at the time I try to flush out their trump cards in the Pinochle game. This more than compensates for the sniping and they slowly learn some Catholic things and become better card players too. I even have one now listening to EWTN radio as they contemplate church shopping again.

An apologist is in a constant tension between defending the faith and in teaching the faith. Sometimes we have to defend in ways proportionate to the stubbornness of the attack - and there have been some pretty hostile attacks in this thread. But ultimately an apologist’s goal is to convert an attacker into a friend or at least argue them to a posture of exhaustion or else go neutral and cease the naked aggression. And yes, sometimes it is necessary to control the agenda by going on offense with some forcing counter questions to flush out the fallacies or assumptions that are being overlooked in the arguments. Very often it’s all just a case of simple misunderstanding of what Catholics actually do or believe.

So believe it or not I get much more satisfaction in seeing a person who is hostile to The Church get a new perspective and become neutral or convert; the latter is of course the highest pleasure any apologists can hope for since that has a force multiplier effect in helping their friends convert – not to mention gaining a new brother in Christ.

But in spite of your denials that you don’t care what I say and your desperate attempts to paint me as a fringe exception to Catholic teaching you really do care what I think. If you did not you would not be asking me additional questions and continuing to engage me with an alienation tactic. It actually shows I am getting through to you and breaking down some walls. Progress…

Let me first of all assure you that I am in step with Catholic teaching. While I admit that I can be forceful in my manner to cut to the chase, Catholics do not condemn or judge individual souls. We believe it is possible for non-Catholics to get to heaven - but The Church in admitting that possibility also does not estimate numbers saved and its possible too that Jesus wasn’t kidding when He said ‘only a few enter by the narrow gate’. In saying that I want to make it clear I would not want my worst enemy to go to hell.

And thanks for the CS Lewis quote “in the end it isn’t going to matter what you did, but only who you are with.”

Do I know who I am with?

To answer your question Napsack, I do know who I am with - not that I hold C.S. Lewis’s maxims in any particularly high regard. His fantasy works have some decent Christological morality cleverly mixed and concealed within his borderline Pantheistic fantasy/mythological genre which have become his signature style. I can certainly say that he knew his market and his audience. But what I most respect is the man who walked away from his atheism to rediscover his original Christian teaching.

Allow me here to reciprocate below with a classic quote from the wizard character Gandalf taken from J.R.R. Tolkien’s Lord of The Rings. Tolkien, a Catholic, also was very clever in his ability to mix strong Christian-Catholic messages into his good vs. evil fantasy themes and was one of C.S. Lewis’s closest friends. In fact Tolkien is generally regarded as being instrumental in getting Lewis to convert from atheism back to Christianity (Anglican). If given more time before he died many feel Lewis would have probably become Catholic.
From J.R.R Tolkien's The Two Towers:

Frodo: “I wish none of this had happened.”

Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

Hear Original Sound Track

Pax,
James

 

[Always_For_Him]

Let’s just suffice it to say that you weren’t part of this conversation and leave it at that.

Gee, I didn’t realize that I needed to be there personally to be a part of the conversation. The way I see it, since all Protestants have the authority to bind and loose for themselves (no one in the last 500 years was there either), I thought I might be able to grab a little of that authority myself.

What I do get is that you don’t have an answer or any plausible explanation for my post. You can’t refute it because NO ONE here today, 500 years ago or 1900 years ago was here to hear the conversations that Jesus had with the Apostles. ALL WE HAVE TO GO ON is what they taught their successors and what those successors orally taught for centuries before recording those teachings for us. You don’t have anything else to go on. It is the Catholic Church that penned the Bible that you use. You or NO man today or in the last 500 years can authoritatively interpret NT writings. You mean to tell me that you and your Church can discern better what the NT Scriptures are saying than the Church magisterium who wrote it for you? If this were any other topic other than religion, everyone would say that idea is rediculous. Common sense should tell you that you or your Church that is less that 500 years old could possibly interpret Scripture over the Church that taught it and who wrote it for you.