To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

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pete_29 said:
I wasn’t saying that it didn’t matter what the Apostles said, I was saying that it doesn’t matter what you say. Nice childish attempt to twist my words. :tsktsk:
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Not childish at all. Can you have a conversation without insult?
OK I gave the books in the NT which the apostles wrote. There is no veneration of Mary in these books. This is what the apostles wanted future generations to know yet there is not veneration of Mary in these writtings. Why wouldnt they put something in there if it was important?
 
Hisalone said:
Not childish at all. Can you have a conversation without insult?
OK I gave the books in the NT which the apostles wrote. There is no veneration of Mary in these books. This is what the apostles wanted future generations to know yet there is not veneration of Mary in these writtings. Why wouldnt they put something in there if it was important?
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In my opinion it was extremely childish and just because your interpretation of the Bible can’t find it doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Also, I didn’t insult you, I reprimanded you because in my opinion you deserved it.
 
Who limits apostolic teaching to ‘Scripture alone’–and even more, to narrowly based, unauthoritative, and ‘privately interpreted’ Scripture at that?

Not Catholics.😃 We follow the apostles’ teachings. . .and never did they say, “Um, people, it’s all in the KJV, just figure it out yourselves.”
 
pete_29 said:
In my opinion it was extremely childish and just because your interpretation of the Bible can’t find it doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Also, I didn’t insult you, I reprimanded you because in my opinion you deserved it.
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Pete you seem like a guy who doesnt know and just wants to fight.
So in that case you are now on my ignore list.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Who limits apostolic teaching to ‘Scripture alone’–and even more, to narrowly based, unauthoritative, and ‘privately interpreted’ Scripture at that?

Not Catholics.😃 We follow the apostles’ teachings. . .and never did they say, “Um, people, it’s all in the KJV, just figure it out yourselves.”
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Scripture, the oracles of God is the most reliable of Gods utterance.
The apostles wrote many books yet you cannot show me where they say to venerate Mary.
The veneration of Mary is extrabiblical. There is no reason at all to believe that the apostles themselves venerated Mary.
 
The veneration of Mary is not extrabiblical. If you’re going to tell me that Scripture (specifically Luke 2) has Mary saying “all generations shall call me blessed” and that doesn’t mean that we venerate her, then you have a very poor understanding of veneration.

The problem as I see it is that Catholics have a deeper and richer spiritual life than Protestants, on the average. (Obviously, an individual Protestant may have a deeper spiritual life than an individual Catholic, for a variety of factors, but I’m speaking in general historical, cultural, and theological terms). For the average Protestant, especially those of the “bible-believing” basis or Sola Scriptura in certain understandings, has limited himself/herself to not only the narrowness of personal belief in considering "scripture alone’ (and as I mentioned, ‘privately interpreted’ Scripture at that), that Protestant has also limited himself/herself in dozens of other ways, for example, in speech, and in practice.

Because the average Catholic has not only a much greater collection of historical tradition and practice AND has Scripture, Tradition, and the Magesterium, the Catholic worship (on the average) is deeper, absolute and unchanging, rather than shallower, relative, and changeable. Mind you, the ‘spread’ between the deep and the shallow might not be all that much between individuals! And worship is worship.

Because a Catholic’s mere veneration is as deep as many Protestant’s ‘worship’ practices, the Protestants falsely see the Catholics as ‘worshipping’. . .because they themselves are so narrow and small (without realizing it) in their own practices. They can’t imagine anything more deep and rich than their ‘private’ interpretion and their narrow focus, so anything a Catholic does that doesn’t ‘dovetail’ with the Protestant ‘opinion’, or which seems to put their ‘narrow focus’ onto anything but God, is seen as wrong–when it is the Protestant’s view which is wrong. And here again of course I am speaking of averages and of specifically those of a certain ‘bent’ theologically speaking, not making judgments against individuals.

But moving on to the accusations of individuals (you, Hisalone) do you think Catholics worship Mary because we actually give her the veneration she is due? You must have absolutely no idea how much deeper and greater is the WORSHIP we give almighty God–because you’ve already ‘prejudged’ us according not to God’s standards but your own. You’re attempting to have us ‘chip down’ our worship of God until it’s as tiny and narrow as your own because you think that’s ‘enough’. And that is really the sad part—because I firmly believe that most Protestants absolutely want to give God full worship. They mistakenly think they’re doing that now, but they aren’t. . .but as is shown by the testimony of dozens of former Protestants who have joined the Catholic Church, it is in realizing that Catholicism DOES offer the fullness of faith and worship that has led them to become Catholics. These good people know that, as Protestants, they were trying their best to love and serve God but mistakenly weren’t doing so ‘fully’, and they wanted fullness. So while they recognize certain errors in Protestantism, they don’t make the mistake of thinking that Protestants don’t love God–unlike some Protestants who, sadly, are more than ready to accuse (unjustly) Catholics of not loving God.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
The veneration of Mary is not extrabiblical. If you’re going to tell me that Scripture (specifically Luke 2) has Mary saying “all generations shall call me blessed” and that doesn’t mean that we venerate her, then you have a very poor understanding of veneration.

Mary was blessed. I can say that and not vererate her, kneel before her statue, follow her statue in procession, kiss her statue, and give her glory that belongs to God alone.

The problem as I see it is that Catholics have a deeper and richer spiritual life than Protestants, on the average. (Obviously, an individual Protestant may have a deeper spiritual life than an individual Catholic, for a variety of factors, but I’m speaking in general historical, cultural, and theological terms). For the average Protestant, especially those of the “bible-believing” basis or Sola Scriptura in certain understandings, has limited himself/herself to not only the narrowness of personal belief in considering "scripture alone’ (and as I mentioned, ‘privately interpreted’ Scripture at that), that Protestant has also limited himself/herself in dozens of other ways, for example, in speech, and in practice.

Purely subjective.There is a deep spiritual life awaiting anyone who studies Gods word.

Because the average Catholic has not only a much greater collection of historical tradition and practice AND has Scripture, Tradition, and the Magesterium, the Catholic worship (on the average) is deeper, absolute and unchanging, rather than shallower, relative, and changeable. Mind you, the ‘spread’ between the deep and the shallow might not be all that much between individuals! And worship is worship.

My dad is better than your dad. Is this what your spirituality amounts to?

Because a Catholic’s mere veneration is as deep as many Protestant’s ‘worship’ practices, the Protestants falsely see the Catholics as ‘worshipping’. . .because they themselves are so narrow and small (without realizing it) in their own practices. They can’t imagine anything more deep and rich than their ‘private’ interpretion and their narrow focus, so anything a Catholic does that doesn’t ‘dovetail’ with the Protestant ‘opinion’, or which seems to put their ‘narrow focus’ onto anything but God, is seen as wrong–when it is the Protestant’s view which is wrong. And here again of course I am speaking of averages and of specifically those of a certain ‘bent’ theologically speaking, not making judgments against individuals.

I know worship when I see it.

But moving on to the accusations of individuals (you, Hisalone) do you think Catholics worship Mary because we actually give her the veneration she is due? You must have absolutely no idea how much deeper and greater is the WORSHIP we give almighty God–because you’ve already ‘prejudged’ us according not to God’s standards but your own. You’re attempting to have us ‘chip down’ our worship of God until it’s as tiny and narrow as your own because you think that’s ‘enough’. And that is really the sad part—because I firmly believe that most Protestants absolutely want to give God full worship. They mistakenly think they’re doing that now, but they aren’t. . .but as is shown by the testimony of dozens of former Protestants who have joined the Catholic Church, it is in realizing that Catholicism DOES offer the fullness of faith and worship that has led them to become Catholics. These good people know that, as Protestants, they were trying their best to love and serve God but mistakenly weren’t doing so ‘fully’, and they wanted fullness. So while they recognize certain errors in Protestantism, they don’t make the mistake of thinking that Protestants don’t love God–unlike some Protestants who, sadly, are more than ready to accuse (unjustly) Catholics of not loving God.
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By giving honor to Mary that is only due God is not something that is “deep”.
 
Not surprising, sadly. Basically all you’ve done, Hisalone, is to sneer at Catholics because your ‘definition’ of words and practices is narrower and ‘newer’ than theirs. You don’t have a theological leg to stand on and all you can is bleat, “I SAY this is for God alone, I SAY it’s wrong”. . .and we are supposed to go by what YOU SAY as if you are totally infallible in your personal definition of Scripture, in your personal knowledge of Christianity in all its facets, etc.

You see, you aren’t even bringing up anything from an authority (you are your own authority or at least you wish to be) to show why we should jettison 2000 years’ worth of theology and teaching to accept a truncated, narrow and man-made doctrine of Hisalone as apostolic teaching. We bring up Early Church Fathers, we bring up tradition and practice, we bring up Scriptural passages which are more authoritative than your interpretations because yours are based on your private ‘feelings’ and ours are based on authoritative teaching from the Holy Spirit which is guaranteed because Christ Himself decreed it so.

When you wish to be serious about an actual dialogue, please come up with something that is more than, “This is truth because I ALONE, Hisalone, say it is. Nyah nyah Catholics.”
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Not surprising, sadly. Basically all you’ve done, Hisalone, is to sneer at Catholics because your ‘definition’ of words and practices is narrower and ‘newer’ than theirs. You don’t have a theological leg to stand on and all you can is bleat, “I SAY this is for God alone, I SAY it’s wrong”. . .and we are supposed to go by what YOU SAY as if you are totally infallible in your personal definition of Scripture, in your personal knowledge of Christianity in all its facets, etc.

You see, you aren’t even bringing up anything from an authority (you are your own authority or at least you wish to be) to show why we should jettison 2000 years’ worth of theology and teaching to accept a truncated, narrow and man-made doctrine of Hisalone as apostolic teaching. We bring up Early Church Fathers, we bring up tradition and practice, we bring up Scriptural passages which are more authoritative than your interpretations because yours are based on your private ‘feelings’ and ours are based on authoritative teaching from the Holy Spirit which is guaranteed because Christ Himself decreed it so.

When you wish to be serious about an actual dialogue, please come up with something that is more than, “This is truth because I ALONE, Hisalone, say it is. Nyah nyah Catholics.”
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This is my last post on this thread.
Make no mistake I have brought the full wieght and authority of Gods word into this discussion and you have rejected it as being insufficent.
That is sad.
 
This is my last post on this thread. We’ll see.
Make no mistake I have brought the full wieght and authority of Gods word into this discussion and you have rejected it as being insufficent. I find this offensive–I do not reject God’s word, weight, or authority. What I reject is your unauthoritative, unsupported assertions and your narrow and man-made teachings. There is a rather substantial difference between the two.
That is sad. Well, you may be sad for I don’t doubt that you totally believe in your own interpretation as being “God’s”. Point is, your belief rests on the ‘sand’ of your fallible and truncated ‘interpretation’ without authority, and not on the ‘rock’ of the Church Christ gave us. And there is simply no other way of putting it ‘kindly’ (because it is bound to hurt your ‘feelings’ as nobody likes to be told they are in error). . .but you are in error.
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Tantum_ergo:
This is what annoys me about some protestants. Hisalone “brought the full weight and authority of God’s Word to the discussion”.:rolleyes: You’d think he wrote the Bible himself.
 
RELIGION V. SUPERSTITION
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 To begin with, I am happy to honor Mary. But many Catholics go well beyond that, and some clearly center their faith more around Mary than Christ. 

  The real issue in American religion today, whether we're speaking of traditional Catholics or evangelical Protestants, is that they are stuck with various superstitions that are part of their basic faith. Mary and the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption make Catholicism look pagan to many observers. Add to this transubstantiation, veneration of saints, infallibility of the Pope on faith and morals, etc., and Catholicism can seem like a throwback to medieval times and totally out of whack with the 21st century.

   Many evangelical Protestants, and some traditional Catholics, are heavy into demonology, 'last days' escatology, and dubious types of faith healing. (Yes, I believe that faith can help heal, but....).  

    There are millions of well-educated astude Catholics and Protestants who pay little attention to the myths of Christianity, strip away the outside layer of superstition, and seek to follow the tenets and example of Christ. They don't waste their time arguing about fine theological points that are basically unimportant. When Christ was asked how we can enter life eternal, he didn't answer with a creed or a dogma but with the two great commandments - love God and one another - and the parable of the Good Samaritan.

    Most of the mainline Protestant denominations - e. g., Methodists, Presbyterians, UCC, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Disciples of Christ and ABC (American Baptist Convention) -
believe in the big tent, a broad church fellowship that welcomes a wide spectrum of people with varying interpretations of the Christian faith. And they don’t claim to be ‘the one true church’. More and more Catholics have the same outlook on religion.
 
Hisalone said:
This is my last post on this thread.
Make no mistake I have brought the full wieght and authority of Gods word into this discussion and you have rejected it as being insufficent.
That is sad.
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You won’t know sad until you encounter Jesus at your final judgement and Mary is sitting next to him and He asks you for an explanation of how you tried to put put your own authority on God’s words and did everything in your power to degenerate Catholics as well as put down Mary as unworthy of veneration. It will be exceedingly sad if your eternity comes down to an act of Mercy and Jesus does not permit Mary to say anything in your defense because you refused to say anyting in her defense and even slandered those who revere and honor her.

Indeed it is sad that you see fit to attack those who desire to “call Mary blessed” and venerate her. Let me give you some advise. You do not control and define the relationships that anyone in The Church has with The Saints anymore so than you control or define the relationships the rest of us have with God. You better come to know too that it’s impossible to have a relationship with Jesus unless you also have one with God the Father and The Holy Spirit - the very same who overshadowed Mary to “let it be done according to [His] Word”. No one enters into a deep and personal relationship with Jesus without meeting the Trinity; and no one gets that far without also meeting The Mother of God. How sad that you do not have a personal relationship with Jesus and His family and His Church.

James
 
Hisalone said:
By giving honor to Mary that is only due God is not something that is “deep”.
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True. That is why Catholics don’t give to Mary what is due to God alone. The problems - it seems - is that (a) Protestants have lowered God and placed Him at the level of the saints and (b) they consider veneration as worship because that (veneration) is all what they have left; they have no true worship.
 
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