To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[CentralFLJames]

Just more insults, more unsubstantiated rhetoric and more hatred coming from someone who supposedly put me on ignore. I didn’t believe you when you said it.

I never told you I put you on forum ignore. But I can see now it would have been the better thing to do.

You carry on like someone who has a valid point to make but yet you don’t. You just drag on and on about the papal decrees that declare Anglicans as invalid and how your church is the only true Church of Christ. There is nothing that declares this outside of your church, NOTHING. I dismiss any notion of possible truth associated with the useless played out garbage that you continue to spew in hate against me and any other Protestants here. You should be ashamed of yourself. I know many Catholics who would be utterly embarrassed to be associated with the way in which you attack others.

Now it is you who are offering personal opinion as if it were dogma. You live according to a double standard my friend. There is nothing outside of your young 500 year old secular “church” (ecclesial community) that declares Anglicanism to be any more valid that the other 32,000 competing Protestant sects other than your own opinion. And recent schisms due to liberalization of the Anglican church by pro-gay and gay clergy and the ordination of women “ministers” is shredding any notion of unity of faith - not exactly a clear and visible sign of virtuous unity is it? Admit the facts or lose all credibility and give up any pretense to being rational.

Undisputed history and forensic evidence attests to both the continuous unbroken apostolic succession of the Catholic Church going all the way back to St. Peter and the simple material fact that Anglicans turned their back on the Catholic Church and simply walked away – as if the prior 1400 year association meant nothing to your identities. That is morally worse than being a traitor – that is denying every aspect of one’s own legacy, identity and history and your forefathers’ proud suffrage for the faith.

So I rest my case - you have no argument whatsoever to rebut a thing I have said other than to pretend to be unjustly offended by being called precisely what you are - a traitor to the faith that was handed down to you. At least be man enough to admit the truth. Do I miss presume to assume that you are a man?

James

 

[Leeann]

Thank you CentralFLJames for taking the time to post all the information with regards to the Mass and your understanding of it and all your comments in relation to “Woman of the Eucharist”.

Hope this helps,
James

It does help …. more insight into what you believe.
Soutane - you made reference to another site (way back)- CARM - and I’ve gone to have a look - seems “human nature” is alive and well all over the place!

 

[SIA]

I never told you I put you on forum ignore. But I can see now it would have been the better thing to do.

Now it is you who are offering personal opinion as if it were dogma. You live according to a double standard my friend. There is nothing outside of your young 500 year old secular “church” (ecclesial community) that declares Anglicanism to be any more valid that the other 32,000 competing Protestant sects other than your own opinion. And recent schisms due to liberalization of the Anglican church by pro-gay and gay clergyThis is an abject lie propagated by folks like yourself who do not have your facts straight. The Episcopal church may have gay clergy and be pro-gay, but the Anglican Communion opposes this. This is one of the main reasons for thousands of Episcopalians in the U.S. to leave the Episcopal church. and the ordination of women “ministers” is shredding any notion of unity of faith - not exactly a clear and visible sign of virtuous unity is it? Admit the facts or lose all credibility and give up any pretense to being rational. Why don’t you take a dose of your own medicine here.

Undisputed history and forensic evidence attests to both the continuous unbroken apostolic succession of the Catholic Church going all the way back to St. Peter and the simple material fact that Anglicans turned their back on the Catholic Church and simply walked away – as if the prior 1400 year association meant nothing to your identities. That is morally worse than being a traitor – that is denying every aspect of one’s own legacy, identity and history and your forefathers’ proud suffrage for the faith. Once again, your opinion. I say that it is you who turned your back on the Gospel for the good of your church.

So I rest my case - you have no argument whatsoever to rebut a thing I have said other than to pretend to be unjustly offended by being called precisely what you are - a traitor to the faith that was handed down to you. At least be man enough to admit the truth. Do I miss presume to assume that you are a man? Just more of your rhetoric. You cannot prove anything that you claim. If your brother was a criminal and you truly loved him, would you not try to reform him? Or would you treat him as you have this issue and proclaim his life as a criminal as genuine and not to be changed.

James

 

[Good_Fella]

Your anger is very unproductive unlike Luther’s.

Do you actually believe Luther’s anger was productive?

“He who is not with me is against me, and he who doesn’t gather with me scatters.”
Matthew 12, 30

 

[SIA]

Do you actually believe Luther’s anger was productive?

“He who is not with me is against me, and he who doesn’t gather with me scatters.”
Matthew 12, 30

Perserverance in the eye of the storm.

 

[CentralFLJames]

This is an abject lie propagated by folks like yourself who do not have your facts straight. The Episcopal church may have gay clergy and be pro-gay, but the Anglican Communion opposes this. This is one of the main reasons for thousands of Episcopalians in the U.S. to leave the Episcopal church.

Why don’t you take a dose of your own medicine here.

Apparently History is not your strong suit my friend. Anglicans left The Catholic Church not out of dogmatic differences on faith but predominantly because your King Henry VIII told you that you must hold The King as your head of state as well as head of Church. You were TOLD to leave your Church and to become secular a church - and your forefathers sheepishly obeyed.

So the main cause of the Anglican split was a dispute between King Henry VIII of England and the pope over the king’s need to annul his marriage and The Church had the fortitude to say “no, a secular King in his clearly illicit and immoral shame does not dare to dictate morals to The Church”. Thus, the Anglican Church became the state church of England with the King as its head and the new secular bishops his moral puppets and toadies.

From that initial usurping of papal authority to make the monarch the supreme head of the Anglican Church we have a progression of ecclesial take-over and transformation of the Church by the descendants of Henry (young King Edward) and his successors to make it progressively more Protestant. The monarch essentially hijacked the church and reinvented it in its own image and changed the core beliefs and through attrition (as if by siege) Catholic Britains became “assimilated” and herded like cattle into the error of Protestantism.

Ever since then Anglicans have been trying to expand on the secularization of religion through the World Council of Churches in a “the more the merrier” sort of secular-religious justification ponzi scheme to which Catholics utterly reject as secular-humanism.

You have been successfully assimilated - Welcome to the secular-religious amalgam of the Borg my friend- resistance is futile…

And further, unless you are a minority member of some very small orthodox Anglican sect you are not in step with the actual teachings of the larger liberalized Anglican Church. Most Anglicans support all the popular secular trends of the day (e.g. gay and female ordination, abortion on demand, divorce on demand and tolerance within the “communion” for a large plurality of individual religious beliefs offered from a smorgasbord of theological options).

So my friend, please learn your own church history and get YOUR facts straight and do get in step with your own actual church teachings.

Once again, your opinion. I say that it is you who turned your back on the Gospel for the good of your church.

Just more of your rhetoric. You cannot prove anything that you claim. If your brother was a criminal and you truly loved him, would you not try to reform him? Or would you treat him as you have this issue and proclaim his life as a criminal as genuine and not to be changed.

Oh really? This is your opinion? Can you back that up with facts and dates? Exactly when did Catholics turn their back on the gospel? Was it before King Henry took over the Anglican branch of the Catholic Church in 1534 or after? Did the good people of the Anglican Church demand their king rescue them from the errors of the Catholic Church or did ol’ Henry just take it upon himself to do so? Any schoolboy knows what really happened - King Henry usurped ecclesial power than slowly protestantized it and turn it into a secular religion that would be more obedient to the crown than to the true Church.

History proves what I claim. History does not support your opinion.

Where in the bible can you find any support for ever taking over the authority of the church for any reason? You can’t - its not in there. So don’t try to spew this nonsense that Anglicans were trying to rescue their brothers from false gospel - the Reformation was an illicit and naked power grab and nothing more. It was all about usurping ecclesial authority from The Catholic Church and giving it to the Monarchy - nothing more. It was just simple power and control. And ever since Protestants have been fleeing the persecution of fellow Protestants and the tyranny of their heads of state who at the time they imagined offered them more freedom than did the Catholic popes and bishops to do most anything they wanted to do. This lead directly to the establishment of the United States by those Protestants fleeing their corrupt monarchs and religious leaders that they themselves had installed.

How ironic.

James

 

[JSLocke2004]

I am new to these forums after finding this thread. I was raised a Protestant and married a Catholic almost 13 years ago. I had originally not been looking to convert, but have decided to look into the Catholic faith recently. I have been taking my time and there are only a few issues which still hold me back from full conversion.

I’m sure you can figure out what the main one is and that it’s why I am posting on this thread first.

From what I have seen, Catholics pray to Mary. Now, it was always my understanding that means “worship”. I guess maybe it’s my limited understanding of the Catholic mindset that allows you to pray to Mary and not be worshiping her. Now in addition to the praying, there are also all of the images of her. To me, as an outsider, it appears that there is way more adoration of Mary due to the difference in the amount of imagery of Mary compared to the imagery of Jesus. Why is there only one real image of Jesus in a Catholic’s home, yet in the homes I have seen, there are numerous images and statues of Mary? It appears to me that Catholics hold Mary in a higher regard than Jesus.

Just look at the post on the 10th of January (by luis_rcoelho) that said that “Mary will defeat Satan”. Revelations teaches us that it is Jesus and his army that will defeat Satan. How is it that there can be such misunderstanding (on my part as well)?

 

[SIA]

Apparently History is not your strong suit my friend. Anglicans left The Catholic Church not out of dogmatic differences on faith but predominantly because your King Henry VIII told you that you must hold The King as your head of state as well as head of Church. You were TOLD to leave your Church and to become secular a church - and your forefathers sheepishly obeyed.

So the main cause of the Anglican split was a dispute between King Henry VIII of England and the pope over the king’s need to annul his marriage and The Church had the fortitude to say “no, a secular King in his clearly illicit and immoral shame does not dare to dictate morals to The Church”. Thus, the Anglican Church became the state church of England with the King as its head and the new secular bishops his moral puppets and toadies.

From that initial usurping of papal authority to make the monarch the supreme head of the Anglican Church we have a progression of ecclesial take-over and transformation of the Church by the descendants of Henry (young King Edward) and his successors to make it progressively more Protestant. The monarch essentially hijacked the church and reinvented it in its own image and changed the core beliefs and through attrition (as if by siege) Catholic Britains became “assimilated” and herded like cattle into the error of Protestantism.

Ever since then Anglicans have been trying to expand on the secularization of religion through the World Council of Churches in a “the more the merrier” sort of secular-religious justification ponzi scheme to which Catholics utterly reject as secular-humanism.

You have been successfully assimilated - Welcome to the secular-religious amalgam of the Borg my friend- resistance is futile…

And further, unless you are a minority member of some very small orthodox Anglican sect you are not in step with the actual teachings of the larger liberalized Anglican Church. Most Anglicans support all the popular secular trends of the day (e.g. gay and female ordination, abortion on demand, divorce on demand and tolerance within the “communion” for a large plurality of individual religious beliefs offered from a smorgasbord of theological options).

So my friend, please learn your own church history and get YOUR facts straight and do get in step with your own actual church teachings.

Oh really? This is your opinion? Can you back that up with facts and dates? Exactly when did Catholics turn their back on the gospel? Was it before King Henry took over the Anglican branch of the Catholic Church in 1534 or after? Did the good people of the Anglican Church demand their king rescue them from the errors of the Catholic Church or did ol’ Henry just take it upon himself to do so? Any schoolboy knows what really happened - King Henry usurped ecclesial power than slowly protestantized it and turn it into a secular religion that would be more obedient to the crown than to the true Church.

History proves what I claim. History does not support your opinion.

Where in the bible can you find any support for ever taking over the authority of the church for any reason? You can’t - its not in there. So don’t try to spew this nonsense that Anglicans were trying to rescue their brothers from false gospel - the Reformation was an illicit and naked power grab and nothing more. It was all about usurping ecclesial authority from The Catholic Church and giving it to the Monarchy - nothing more. It was just simple power and control. And ever since Protestants have been fleeing the persecution of fellow Protestants and the tyranny of their heads of state who at the time they imagined offered them more freedom than did the Catholic popes and bishops to do most anything they wanted to do. This lead directly to the establishment of the United States by those Protestants fleeing their corrupt monarchs and religious leaders that they themselves had installed.

How ironic.

James

Do you really believe that mere men can operate an institution for centuries without the need for reform and reconditioning? Reform is all throught the Bible James but yet you refuse to acknowledge it. How about Saul? What about Abraham and his wild audulterous state who Paul called the Father of all who have faith? All these folks were called by God to reform. What makes you think that anything but Christ himself wouldn’t need reform? The gates of hell won’t prevail against his Church, but we as humans running the show eventually are going to make errors and go off course. I know that you believe that the Roman Catholic is exempt from this and is exclusively correct in all truth, but we don’t. We don’t even believe this about our own institution.

 

[withwind]

Do you really believe that mere men can operate an institution for centuries without the need for reform and reconditioning? Reform is all throught the Bible James but yet you refuse to acknowledge it. How about Saul? What about Abraham and his wild audulterous state who Paul called the Father of all who have faith? All these folks were called by God to reform. What makes you think that anything but Christ himself wouldn’t need reform? The gates of hell won’t prevail against his Church, but we as humans running the show eventually are going to make errors and go off course. I know that you believe that the Roman Catholic is exempt from this and is exclusively correct in all truth, but we don’t. We don’t even believe this about our own institution.

Reform with disobedience - results in divisions.
Luther made a huge mistake by breaking away from the Church.

 

[SIA]

Reform with disobedience - results in divisions.
Luther made a huge mistake by breaking away from the Church.

Your wrong. Luther jumped off the wagon before it went over the cliff.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Your wrong. Luther jumped off the wagon before it went over the cliff.

The Catholic Church still manages to be the oldest Christian Church on the planet - over 2000 years old and still growing. While its members (including bishops, priests) are not impeccable and there have been acknowledged abuses and scandals (and excommunications and censoring of those involved) the Church has never been stronger and is growing daily - especially in Africa and the Middle East as the Holy Spirit moves where He will.

This is not consistent with the image of a wagon going over the cliff as you say. You might apply that same image to what IS actually going on in the Anglican Church and its severe schisms and break away sects over the liberalization and further secularization of that church. A simple google on the keyword “Anglican” and “division” will yield thousands of attestations to that sad fate. Also note that there have been a large number of Anglican clergy who can no longer support the extreme liberalization of their church and are becoming Catholic clergy (with special dispensation for those who are married) and bringing their congregations with them. It is inevitable that Anglicanism will continue to fracture into small islands of “the faithful” who will try to take refuge in the old traditions that are under siege by social change and shifting demographics in the UK. That my friend is a true sinking ship and its time to think about swimming back over the Tiber our way.

Listen - Catholics do not enjoy seeing dissension with Anglicans - you all used to be a vital and respected part of the Catholic Church. It saddens us tremendously that there is this alienation and continue fracturing as Christianity is suffering all these divisions into so many “flavors”.

James

 

[SIA]

The Catholic Church still manages to be the oldest Christian Church on the planet - over 2000 years old and still growing. While its members (including bishops, priests) are not impeccable and there have been acknowledged abuses and scandals (and excommunications and censoring of those involved) the Church has never been stronger and is growing daily - especially in Africa and the Middle East as the Holy Spirit moves where He will.

This is not consistent with the image of a wagon going over the cliff as you say. You might apply that same image to what IS actually going on in the Anglican Church and its severe schisms and break away sects over the liberalization and further secularization of that church. A simple google on the keyword “Anglican” and “division” will yield thousands of attestations to that sad fate. Also note that there have been a large number of Anglican clergy who can no longer support the extreme liberalization of their church and are becoming Catholic clergy (with special dispensation for those who are married) and bringing their congregations with them. It is inevitable that Anglicanism will continue to fracture into small islands of “the faithful” who will try to take refuge in the old traditions that are under siege by social change and shifting demographics in the UK. That my friend is a true sinking ship and its time to think about swimming back over the Tiber our way.

Listen - Catholics do not enjoy seeing dissension with Anglicans - you all used to be a vital and respected part of the Catholic Church. It saddens us tremendously that there is this alienation and continue fracturing as Christianity is suffering all these divisions into so many “flavors”.

James

i don’t know what more to say to you James other than the fact that you are just flatly wrong. You cannot back up your faith with Scripture. You cannot defend it with Scripture other than to attempt to creat the illusion of Scripture being equal with the magisterium and tradition. You obviously believe that they can actually trump Scripture because in your church, They Did.

 

[CentralFLJames]

i don’t know what more to say to you James other than the fact that you are just flatly wrong. You cannot back up your faith with Scripture. You cannot defend it with Scripture other than to attempt to creat the illusion of Scripture being equal with the magisterium and tradition. You obviously believe that they can actually trump Scripture because in your church, They Did.

SIA, you sound like you are pontificating your own personal opinion here as if it is infallable. What makes your opinion any more credible than anyone else’s? What’s wrong with listening to an actual apostolic bishop or pope that is teaching what was actually handed down to us from the original apostles 2000 years ago?

Why not offer something substantial that can actually be responded to? What in particular Catholic teaching do you object to that you imagine can’t be backed by scripture? Have you ever actually read the Catholic Catechism along with its thousands of references to scripture, early church fathers and council proclamations?

Where in the bible does it say that it is inspired or contains all that Jesus ever said or did? Where does it say that anyone can privately interpret scripture? Last I read it said to obey what was TAUGHT to you - not what anyone wanted to read into it.

Was it these verses?

*John 21:25
Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.

2 Peter 1:20
“But know this first of all, that (B)no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation…”
*

Well SIA - it seems to me you are just replacing one pope for another. How does the title of Pope SIA sound to you?

James

 

[adrift]

i don’t know what more to say to you James other than the fact that you are just flatly wrong. You cannot back up your faith with Scripture. You cannot defend it with Scripture other than to attempt to creat the illusion of Scripture being equal with the magisterium and tradition. You obviously believe that they can actually trump Scripture because in your church, They Did.

Since Scripture came from the Church, it supports our faith. There is nothing in scripture that does not support the Church. The Church existed before the New Testament. The Church was teaching the Gospel before it was written.

 

[Soutane]

Since Scripture came from the Church, it supports our faith. There is nothing in scripture that does not support the Church. The Church existed before the New Testament. The Church was teaching the Gospel before it was written.

Exactly.

SIA,wishful thinking is NOT fact.You are constantly putting forth the most ludicrous unsupported allegations which border on character association.You do not have ANY credibility and are fast becoming a joke,an object of derision.I would laugh out loud at most of your assertions were they not steeped in such unChristian venom.

 

[Jay53]

I am new to these forums after finding this thread. I was raised a Protestant and married a Catholic almost 13 years ago. I had originally not been looking to convert, but have decided to look into the Catholic faith recently. I have been taking my time and there are only a few issues which still hold me back from full conversion.

I’m sure you can figure out what the main one is and that it’s why I am posting on this thread first.

From what I have seen, Catholics pray to Mary. Now, it was always my understanding that means “worship”. I guess maybe it’s my limited understanding of the Catholic mindset that allows you to pray to Mary and not be worshiping her. Now in addition to the praying, there are also all of the images of her. To me, as an outsider, it appears that there is way more adoration of Mary due to the difference in the amount of imagery of Mary compared to the imagery of Jesus. Why is there only one real image of Jesus in a Catholic’s home, yet in the homes I have seen, there are numerous images and statues of Mary? It appears to me that Catholics hold Mary in a higher regard than Jesus.

Just look at the post on the 10th of January (by luis_rcoelho) that said that “Mary will defeat Satan”. Revelations teaches us that it is Jesus and his army that will defeat Satan. How is it that there can be such misunderstanding (on my part as well)?

JSLocke2004,

First, Welcome to the forums! There are several threads here regarding Catholics praying to Mary as well as alot of other topics that you may have questions about. There are also alot of knowledgeable people here who can hopefully give you good answers.

If you look through the “Mary” ones though you will notice the common theme is that Catholics DO NOT worship Mary. I’m sure others here can give you better explanations, but I’ll put in my 2 cents for what its worth.

I’ll try this analogy and see if it helps you (and I’m sure if there are any holes in it someone will be more than happy to point them out. ) The analogy I have is in company terms with the Boss being God, all of us on earth as the “regular” employees, Blessed Mother as the Boss’ mother and the saints in heaven as retired employees who were good and faithful workers. Now if the regular employees need something from the boss (i.e. a raise, time off, a new lunch room, whatever (doesn’t matter. )) we can and will go to the Boss directly to ask for it. At the same time, if we know that the Boss is in contact with His mother and the retired employees, we may go to them and say “Hey, will you join your request with ours and ask the Boss for ____”. The Boss may be more inclined to grant our request if the employees who always worked hard and did a good job for Him are asking too.
That is what we do when we pray the Hail Mary: “…**pray for us **sinners, now and at the hour of our death.”

Hopefully that made sense.

And, as a Catholic I do have a statue of Jesus which is front and center of my home altar and always has a light on it. I do also have 2 other Infant of Prague statues in my home as well as a Blessed Mother statue, St. Anthony and St. Therese. I also have Blessed Mother and St. Joseph holding Jesus in a garden in front of my house. So, while I do have a Mary statue, it is not the focus of my home.

Again, welcome to the forums and I hope you find the answers you’re looking for.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Do you really believe that mere men can operate an institution for centuries without the need for reform and reconditioning? Reform is all throught the Bible James but yet you refuse to acknowledge it. How about Saul? What about Abraham and his wild audulterous state who Paul called the Father of all who have faith? All these folks were called by God to reform. What makes you think that anything but Christ himself wouldn’t need reform? The gates of hell won’t prevail against his Church, but we as humans running the show eventually are going to make errors and go off course. I know that you believe that the Roman Catholic is exempt from this and is exclusively correct in all truth, but we don’t. We don’t even believe this about our own institution.

First of all, while it is true that every single Catholic is as you say born as a “mere” man it is also true that that old man is put aside to become a new man in Christ at Baptism. Not only that our priests and bishops receive a special apostolic blessing through a physical laying on of hands to anoint them as our ecclesial leaders with a real and genuine spiritual mark of ecclesial authority. This is not a mere ritual - this is a real spiritual passing on of apostolic authority that extends all the way back to St. Peter and the first bishops. No man can self appoint himself an authority to be a priest of God as the Protestants attempt to do. It is a real spiritual mark that can not be passed on outside of the apostolic succession.

So in one sense yes - mere men. But in another sense - very special men divinely appointed with apostolic spiritual authority that MUST be respected (‘those that reject you, reject Me and He who sent Me’).

Now as for the need for spiritual reformation and renewal - YES! Exactly and precisely accurate! In fact The Holy Spirit regularly moves the Catholic Church to come together in major ecclesial council meetings and assemblies to address problems and heresies and to clarify teachings that are being misunderstood - and yes - even to correct abuses among the clergy and so on. I am certain you have heard of Vatican I and Vatican II no doubt?

Note the difference though between these sort of authoritative changes and how it fundamentally differs from the revolutionary nature that we saw attempted by Luther and his reformer associates though. In that time Luther and his supporters attempted (and failed) to completely redefine The Church teachings as well as usurp its apostolic authority. It was also attempted belligerently - NOT constructively by working through the ecclesial authority. In other words REVOLUTION is NOT the way the Holy Spirit operates nor is there any authority EVER granted for rebelling against divine appointed authority. Not even young David imagined to TAKE authority from the corrupt King Samuel when he had the clear chance to drive his spear into him as he slept. No, young David recognized that a leader can be corrupt and in a state of sin but is still nevertheless God’s anointed representative. David waited for God to anoint Him and respected the licit authority that was in place. There is NO precedent in scripture anywhere to ever justify a rebellion against legal and licitly defined ecclesial authority. The Protestants Reformers knew this - but they were no interested in just reformation - they were interested in power and self appointed authority or else they would not have let their behaviors flash into bloodshed and inflict massive suffering on The Church.

The bottom line SIA is that the leaders of The Catholic Church are not impeccable in their conduct and there will always be less than perfect disciplines and administrative practices while there remains a single human in The Church. But one MUST respect divinely appointed authority and not incite open revolution and cause mutiny in the ranks simply because one wishes to. The Church is ever more than ever more open to hearing issues from the laity and addressing real or imagined abuses. If anything good came out of the lessons-learned of the Reformation is that the Church must be in tune with the laity and their perceptions and be responsive to them.

The Church is in a constant state of perfecting and refining itself and clarifying its teachings and speaking out against every new heresy that we see in the secular world these days. The problem has always been “the world” does not want the Church to be perfect nor to be its conscience since it wants to do as it pleases - including redefining what it means to be a Christian.

Christ is not one to be redefined though and has personally guaranteed that He will not permit The Catholic Church to fail. Woe to those who try to redefine The Church.

James

 

[SIA]

Exactly.

SIA,wishful thinking is NOT fact.You are constantly putting forth the most ludicrous unsupported allegations which border on character association.You do not have ANY credibility and are fast becoming a joke,an object of derision.I would laugh out loud at most of your assertions were they not steeped in such unChristian venom.

That’s ok my friend, laugh away. I’m sure that the Apostles were laughed at alot.

 

[SIA]

First of all, while it is true that every single Catholic is as you say born as a “mere” man it is also true that that old man is put aside to become a new man in Christ at Baptism. Not only that our priests and bishops receive a special apostolic blessing through a physical laying on of hands to anoint them as our ecclesial leaders with a real and genuine spiritual mark of ecclesial authority. This is not a mere ritual - this is a real spiritual passing on of apostolic authority that extends all the way back to St. Peter and the first bishops. No man can self appoint himself an authority to be a priest of God as the Protestants attempt to do. It is a real spiritual mark that can not be passed on outside of the apostolic succession.

So in one sense yes - mere men. But in another sense - very special men divinely appointed with apostolic spiritual authority that MUST be respected (‘those that reject you, reject Me and He who sent Me’).

Now as for the need for spiritual reformation and renewal - YES! Exactly and precisely accurate! In fact The Holy Spirit regularly moves the Catholic Church to come together in major ecclesial council meetings and assemblies to address problems and heresies and to clarify teachings that are being misunderstood - and yes - even to correct abuses among the clergy and so on. I am certain you have heard of Vatican I and Vatican II no doubt?

Note the difference though between these sort of authoritative changes and how it fundamentally differs from the revolutionary nature that we saw attempted by Luther and his reformer associates though. In that time Luther and his supporters attempted (and failed) to completely redefine The Church teachings as well as usurp its apostolic authority. It was also attempted belligerently - NOT constructively by working through the ecclesial authority. In other words REVOLUTION is NOT the way the Holy Spirit operates nor is there any authority EVER granted for rebelling against divine appointed authority. Not even young David imagined to TAKE authority from the corrupt King Samuel when he had the clear chance to drive his spear into him as he slept. No, young David recognized that a leader can be corrupt and in a state of sin but is still nevertheless God’s anointed representative. David waited for God to anoint Him and respected the licit authority that was in place. There is NO precedent in scripture anywhere to ever justify a rebellion against legal and licitly defined ecclesial authority. The Protestants Reformers knew this - but they were no interested in just reformation - they were interested in power and self appointed authority or else they would not have let their behaviors flash into bloodshed and inflict massive suffering on The Church.

The bottom line SIA is that the leaders of The Catholic Church are not impeccable in their conduct and there will always be less than perfect disciplines and administrative practices while there remains a single human in The Church. But one MUST respect divinely appointed authority and not incite open revolution and cause mutiny in the ranks simply because one wishes to. The Church is ever more than ever more open to hearing issues from the laity and addressing real or imagined abuses. If anything good came out of the lessons-learned of the Reformation is that the Church must be in tune with the laity and their perceptions and be responsive to them.

The Church is in a constant state of perfecting and refining itself and clarifying its teachings and speaking out against every new heresy that we see in the secular world these days. The problem has always been “the world” does not want the Church to be perfect nor to be its conscience since it wants to do as it pleases - including redefining what it means to be a Christian.

Christ is not one to be redefined though and has personally guaranteed that He will not permit The Catholic Church to fail. Woe to those who try to redefine The Church.

James

I’ll just continue to pray for you. I don’t hate you my friend and I know that you are searching. Keep searching. We are both Christians.

 

[David47]

soutane

The "poor souls"who feel they have the license to come onto a forum on a Catholic website and **** all over our Faith deserve everything they get.

I dont know what **** means but it does not seem very Christ like at all. However coming onto a Christian website that is open to all will encourage many different opinions. If you wish to meet with the one you disagree with maybe you should agree to meet them in a back alley somewhere.

I have no problem with any non-Catholic Christian who thinks my faith is bogus and the teachings of my faith are so much malarkey.I will be perfectly content to have a civilized dialogue with that person.Once that person crosses the boundary into taunting and mocking behaviors and continues to bear false witness once charitably corrected he or she deserves to feel our wrath.

mmm should it be your wrath or Gods wrath? He does know what goes on here whether people admit it or not

If you want to see Christian Charity in action go to CARM and post ONE thing in defense of this Holy Catholic Church.

two or three wrongs dont make it right

Do NOT presume to lecture us as is it is obviously NOT your ox being gored.The Catholics on this thread have Nothing to apologise for.I have been uncharitable on other threads and have offered personal and public apologies for my behaviour,but NOT on this thread.

If YOUR Mother or your relationship with her was being attacked,how would YOU react?

With understandable fury one would hope.

I do not presume to lecture, just telling it like it is, if you consider that lecturing then so be it. There are many if not thousands of people reading all posts in this forum( lurkers), many are searching for an answer, your posts will have an affect on how they see Chritianity as a whole. I guess when I read venom, bigotry,traitor et al it does not read well, dont get me wrong I am not saying that you Soutane said all of these things but you certainly add fuel to the fire.
As far as YOUR ox being gored ---- I dont really know what you mean. However as Christians we all ( and yes me too) have a lot to apologise for. And I guess as far as goring goes we all get that at times. Sometimes it happens but it should not happen between Christians, we all have a God who loves us and a Christ who died for us.

yours in Christ
David

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