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CentralFLJames
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I dunno nbtb - with all the time you spend in here hanging out with us Catholics someone in your church is bound to accuse you of devil worship and consorting with the enemy.
James
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James
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Leeann
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And so is double talk.
Pentacost comes to mind! In the nicest sort of way!
Funny…that’s what I and many Non-Catholics have believed all along!
I’ve never laid claim to either of those.
By here you mean the Catholic Church?..or are you referring to the one you describe above… the one “*with common pillars of faith built on the cornerstone of Christ all speaking in the common spiritual lingua-franca of the Holy Spirit *”
You mean the only church on the planet that “claims” to have “the only valid sacraments”…“dispensing God’s grace”…heady stuff eh CentralfJames!
Excuse me…I will respond…but you may now be excused.
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CentralFLJames
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Can you show me Hoyle’s Protestant rules for applying sola scriptura Leeann? I could just point you to the bible and say there it is if you’d prefer. I am not the one arguing the false doctrine of sola scripture to prove a point. I am only using scripture since its the only thing you accept. But you always reject the proper teaching that goes with it. Why is that? I thought one man’s sola scriptura is just as good as another man’s? Right?
I cam put forward the same nonsensical claim you do - you are interpreting scripture according to what your bible-church minister taught you. But who authorized him to teach? Answer - no one but himself.
I suppose you do not understand the meaning of the word “ordinances” do you? Hint: An authoritative rule - things Protestants loathe - rules. But as you see they are biblical - just not recorded there. Did you see Paul write those down anywhere in the bible? Nope? Hmm, do you imagine he told somone the rules? That is where tradition comes from dear.
Oh really. Are you familiar with the Catholic Liturgy of the Eucharist and the Eucharistic prayer Leeann? You really need to stop bluffing like you actually know what you are talking about and know waht Catholics actually practise Leeann. If you really knew what you were talking about you would be amazed at how similar the liturgy is to this… Google Liturgy Eucharist Catholic - your jaw will drop in disbelief. While your mouth is wide open in awe see if you can get a priest to give you first communion so you can start obeying what Jesus actually taught and “eat His body” and not turn your back on this teaching like the false disciples did in John 6:66.
James
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CentralFLJames
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What this “proves” is your inability to be able to read and comprehend what Scripture says.
Wait Leeann - this is straight forward sola scriptura - one man’s sola is as good as another man’s yes? Are you going to deny me my sola and only allow yours? You are starting to sound like you imagine yourself a pope. Next thing you know you are going to go about telling everyone you are infallable. I suppose I should just toss out my 3 college degrees since Popette Leeann has ruled on the matter huh?
[SIGN]Pssst… you have no recognizable pedigree Leeann.[/SIGN]
Leeann;4706123:
and John 21:25 – when you read those verses in “**context” **– especially with **John 20: 31 ** - which for some reason you didn’t include, one can easily see WHY these “things” (not “teachings of Jesus” – but “miraculous things” that the Apostles had witnessed Him do)….are not recorded…there were simply too many of them….the reason not being, as you indicate “so there must be things outside of the Scripture that we must observe.”
Hmm, well now how do we know Leeann? The only reason you even know that Scripture is inspired is because the Catholic Church told you it was. Now you don’t want to trust us to tell you what these verses mean?
Apostolic Context Leeann, Apostolic Context!
Once you reject all teaching authority but your own we are down to competing opinions and the 2000 year old Catholic Tradition trumps yours every time since ours extended directly from the apostles and yours only extends back 500 years from a mentally unstable German academic revolutionist’s theories.
Sorry I will stick with the apostolic tradition unless I can see you start performing miracles…
James
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CentralFLJames
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Paul is doing what all good church bishops do - checking up on his flock and ESTABLISHING them and encouraging them in the faith just like the text you inserted says. This is pastoral and is part and parcel of TEACHING and shepherding the flock. So your parochial attempt to deflect my arguments by bending scripture to suit your own perspective fails again…
Is this the best defense you can come up with? This is no different than the old kid came of shoot-em-up: “I shot you first - no I did!”? I spoon feed you bite size portions of scripture to accommodate your infantile capacity to absorb more than you can chew at one time and now you want to bite the hand that accommodates your addiction to sola scriptura? Again, if you want to get it all in adult size chunks like Catholic do then go pick up the CCC and start reading.
Do you live in OT times or are you just paranoid? Please…
Ahh, so at least you know we do not live in OT times afterall. Did you imagine someone was going to start flinging rocks at you through the CRT?Yes…but we are not in the OT times….we as Christians are “in Jesus” ….as you yourself stated in one of your last posts “The complete and total Living Word of God is in the person of Jesus Himself.”…therefore it stands to reason that if the Living Word of God is in the person of Jesus Himself and Jesus is in us as we are in Him…
You are making lots of assumptions about who is “we” and who is part of what. Christ already told us that those simply calling themselves Christians do not get it by mere lip service. And scripture tells us nothing deserving of a curse will enter heaven at the same time Paul tells us that the person who preaches a different gospel will be cursed.
“Not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will enter My kingdom”.
" if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"
Let me advise you that you your preaching of an invisible church with factions and divisions is not the same gospel that the apostles handed down to and through the Catholic Church Leeann.
James
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Leeann
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Not when it is so obviously taken out of context and when read with the “whole” stands glaringly out as either attempted deception or plain foolishness.
Who says I’m interpreting scripture according to my bible-church minister? And how do you know who authorized him to teach…wouldn’t it be amazing if GOD did something on HIS OWN that didn’t fall within what the Catholic Church has told you HE can do?
I do know what “ordinances” are and I do believe Paul did refer to them in many of his epistles to the members of the church and as you can see from this verse :CentralFLJames
I suppose you do not understand the meaning of the word “ordinances” do you? Hint: An authoritative rule - things Protestants loathe - rules. But as you see they are biblical - just not recorded there. Did you see Paul write those down anywhere in the bible? Nope? Hmm, do you imagine he told somone the rules? That is where tradition comes from dear.
**2 Thess Ch 2: **
14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
…he uses the words “which you have learned” as in “already done”…and exhorts them to adhere to those…not anything later “developed” and “sanctioned” by the Catholic Church.
1 Cor 11 V 1-2
1 Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.
Same in Cor. - he HAD delivered them.
Yes…thanks to Good Fella, I believe, he outlined in quite some detail the Mass/Eucharist a few posts back. While very elaborate in detail…it in no way resembles what Paul describes as he reminded the church members what he himself had received to be passed on…and which he “had” passed on already…CentralFLJames
Oh really. Are you familiar with the Catholic Liturgy of the Eucharist and the Eucharistic prayer Leeann? You really need to stop bluffing like you actually know what you are talking about and know waht Catholics actually practise Leeann. If you really knew what you were talking about you would be amazed at how similar the liturgy is to this… Google Liturgy Eucharist Catholic - your jaw will drop in disbelief. While your mouth is wide open in awe see if you can get a priest to give you first communion so you can start obeying what Jesus actually taught and “eat His body” and not turn your back on this teaching like the false disciples did in John 6:66.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. 24 And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. …and it goes on…but there is no mention of a “liturgy” or “priest” giving first communion.
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Leeann
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You are “ranting” James…a bit flustered?Wait Leeann - this is straight forward sola scriptura - one man’s sola is as good as another man’s yes? Are you going to deny me my sola and only allow yours? You are starting to sound like you imagine yourself a pope. Next thing you know you are going to go about telling everyone you are infallable. I suppose I should just toss out my 3 college degrees since Popette Leeann has ruled on the matter huh?
[SIGN]Pssst… you have no recognizable pedigree Leeann.[/SIGN]
Hmm, well now how do we know Leeann? The only reason you even know that Scripture is inspired is because the Catholic Church told you it was. Now you don’t want to trust us to tell you what these verses mean?
Apostolic Context Leeann, Apostolic Context!
Once you reject all teaching authority but your own we are down to competing opinions and the 2000 year old Catholic Tradition trumps yours every time since ours extended directly from the apostles and yours only extends back 500 years from a mentally unstable German academic revolutionist’s theories.
Sorry I will stick with the apostolic tradition unless I can see you start performing miracles…
James
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Leeann
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If you need to believe this James…that’s okay.
It’s amazing how we “see ourselves” isn’t it James?
ZOOM…went right over your head…that happens when one is flustered.Ahh, so at least you know we do not live in OT times afterall. Did you imagine someone was going to start flinging rocks at you through the CRT?
Don’t worry James…like I said…I’ll keep you in my prayers.
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CentralFLJames
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I am sure that is exactly the same thing Satan complained of when Jesus corrected him after tempting Jesus in the dessert with false interpretation of scripture.
What was the word you used? Context Context
Yes, perhaps I did over subscribe to you an assumption of having anything more than a random orthodoxy. I can see now your religion is one of secular-argumentation and oppositions to anything said for the sake of opposition - a sort of Protestantism taken to the limits of Protest. Do you ever find yourself shadow boxing with your own rhetoric to keep yourself company?
Luke 10:22 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
Matthew 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Notice it did not say Leeann’s Church or your bible-minister’s church?
The word of God can certainly be frustrating to those who imagine they can say and do what they want as if its their own personal church can’t it Leeann?
I do know what “ordinances” are and I do believe Paul did refer to them in many of his epistles to the members of the church and as you can see from this verse :
No you don’t. If you knew what they were you would be truthful and admit that these are not written down in the bible anywhere and if you were rational and had a healthy logic you would then conclude that some things mentioned and references in the bible are simply not in the bible and you would then have to admit that there is a thing called “tradition” and passed on oral teachings. But you can’t do that because your pride prevents you from admitting that your false doctrine of sola scripture (Leeann’s version) is wrong and arbitrary. So all you are doing here in your labored squirming is admitting that the verses I gave you prove that there is a thing called proper teaching and The Church, The Catholic Church is who Christ authorizes to teach.
But if it makes you feel better to imagine you are correct - you go right ahead and continue believing what you want since you obviously imagine you are above The Church and know it all.
Leeann;4706642:
resembles what Paul describes as he reminded the church members what he himself had received to be passed on…and which he “had” passed on already…
Don’t be ridiculous - it is materially the same thing.
And now you try to confuse the issue at hand as if “passing on” was a done deal. Did Paul just give them a bible 400 years before it was published?
And please don’t be so duplicitous and disingenuous in your smug denial of truth. Do you mean to say you actually believe in what you are arguing in circles with on the liturgy? Do you even receive communion and believe in real presence or are you just a hippocrate who likes to argue for the sake of argument to make themselves feel relevant?
So you see Leeann you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. In no way do your private interpretations of scriptures resemble the true Christian teaching handed down by the apostles. It’s really as simple as that.
I am done with you Leeann. You lack the fundamentals of reason and rational objectivity necessary for anyone to be able to appeal to reason. As well you are puffed up with an obstinate pride and self righteousness that reduces everything shared in an exchange with you to a childish contest of “opposition for the sake of opposition”. So it appears to me you are here not to have constructive dialog with anyone and to learn but to have a forum where you can feel as though you have an audience to preach your own private religion or to entertain your own nonsence.
I won’t waste anymore of my time playing your game of argumentation for the sake of argumentation.
James
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adrift
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Just because you say it wasn’t the Catholic Church doesn’t change history.
All of this belongs in another thread. There are many that address this so find them of start your own.
To this thread. You have very cutely stated that you don’t believe all but some Catholics worship Mary. I would say to you that there are some not all Protestants who do the same. When it is stated that Catholics do not worship Mary it is a fact that we do not. There are no teachings of the Church to say we do. If I say that Lutherans do not believe that Jesus is God, then I must produce evidence that this is a doctrine and not individuals who say it.
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Leeann
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ufamtobie
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1348,
Do you regard Virgin Mary as your Mother or Not?
By comparing Virgin Mary to a fooball game it is YOU how are making Virgin Mary into an Idol. Shame on you for this Heresy and Idolatry, it is by your own words above that shows your True COLOR
The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus on the cross gave Virgin Mary to John and us ALL to be our Mother. This is our True Color of our Catholic Church and that is to Listen to the Teachings of Jesus Christ!
1348, if you want to be the brother of Jesus Christ, then Virgin Mary must be your Mother. Now, if you don’t want Virgin Mary as your Mother, then you are NO BROTHER of Jesus Christ. AMEN
In heaven we are all called brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, so that means that God Is Our Father, and to make this family complete, This is why Jesus Gave Virgin Mary on the Cross to be Our Mother.
1348, Stop your Idolatry of Virgin Mary!
Ufam Tobie
Hail Mary Full of Grace the Lord is with thee, Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen
We have told you we Do Not worship Virgin Mary our Mother!
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adrift
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You regard football teams as a god::bigyikes:
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Bill_Pick
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A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion."
Proverbs 18:
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Leeann
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I apologize adrift…this has really gotten off topic… that’s what happens when posters continue dialogue, by either attempting to reply or respond to comments posted to them…it applies to everyone involved…and for my part…I will try to stay on “topic”.
“Cutely”…???..I have stated very “clearly” that not all Catholics worship Mary.
And you are able to speak for all Catholics, meaning you know as a “fact” that they do not worship Mary, every single one of them all over the world, you are aware of how they understand thoroughly and practice their Catholic faith? There are other Catholic posters who have acknowledged that there are some, either by their “woeful ignorance” due to the teachings they have received – or – some Catholics in South American countries that have taken it to a whole new level….and do worship Mary.
If you say that ALL Lutherans do not believe that Jesus is God, then I suppose, they would want you to produce evidence that this is a doctrine and not just individuals who say it. But if there were Lutherans who would agree with you to some extent…then the purpose of producing evidence that this is doctrine is totally useless. It doesn’t matter what the doctrine says….if it’s happening, it’s happening.
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Tantum_ergo
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Let’s take something very simple.
Most Christians --Catholic and Protestant alike–believe stealing is a sin. Let’s not get into involved discussions about what ‘constitutes’ stealing, or when it is ‘justified’, etc. We’ll just say that as a general rule, Christians believe that stealing is a sin.
OK. Do some Christians steal? Yes, they do.
Some make excuses for it and say it wasn’t a sin for them. Some admit that deliberately chose to sin. Some say that they didn’t understand it and sinned ‘unintentionally’. Regardless, some Christians steal, directly flouting Christian teaching which is "do not steal.’
But because some Christians might steal (for any reason), does that mean that Christians are taught that stealing is all right?
No.
It means that any Christian teaching can be accepted OR REJECTED by any individual, at any time.
So some Catholics may flout the authentic Catholic teaching that Mary is a creature, not a god.
Does that mean that Catholics teach Mary worship, because some Catholics ‘may’ (we have no direct proof that any given person does, just that they 'might) either choose to flout Catholic teaching, or misunderstand Catholic teaching, about Mary?
How about Christians who steal because they misunderstand the teaching? Does that invalidate the teaching because SOME people didn’t understand it properly?
Can you explain why there isn’t a big fuss about how many people are breaking the law about stealing–because there are far more people who admit to either deliberately or ‘unintentionally’ stealing–than there are people who deliberately worship Mary. (and you can’t ‘unintentionally’ worship somebody).
Most Christians --Catholic and Protestant alike–believe stealing is a sin. Let’s not get into involved discussions about what ‘constitutes’ stealing, or when it is ‘justified’, etc. We’ll just say that as a general rule, Christians believe that stealing is a sin.
OK. Do some Christians steal? Yes, they do.
Some make excuses for it and say it wasn’t a sin for them. Some admit that deliberately chose to sin. Some say that they didn’t understand it and sinned ‘unintentionally’. Regardless, some Christians steal, directly flouting Christian teaching which is "do not steal.’
But because some Christians might steal (for any reason), does that mean that Christians are taught that stealing is all right?
No.
It means that any Christian teaching can be accepted OR REJECTED by any individual, at any time.
So some Catholics may flout the authentic Catholic teaching that Mary is a creature, not a god.
Does that mean that Catholics teach Mary worship, because some Catholics ‘may’ (we have no direct proof that any given person does, just that they 'might) either choose to flout Catholic teaching, or misunderstand Catholic teaching, about Mary?
How about Christians who steal because they misunderstand the teaching? Does that invalidate the teaching because SOME people didn’t understand it properly?
Can you explain why there isn’t a big fuss about how many people are breaking the law about stealing–because there are far more people who admit to either deliberately or ‘unintentionally’ stealing–than there are people who deliberately worship Mary. (and you can’t ‘unintentionally’ worship somebody).
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Leeann
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Excuse me Bill…but I believe that your post is “off topic”…unless of course you are referring to the original posting that opened this thread?
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Bill_Pick
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I,M OFF TOPIC. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR POST THATS WHAT IS OFF TOPIC
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adrift
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Good Post:thumbsup:
A person cannot be Catholic and worship Mary. Some have allowed here that it happens when in fact it is a speculation not truth.
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AshleyBelle
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As I stated in another thread… I think the best thing anyone who has “concerns” about Marian devotion can do, is to ask Mary how she feels about it!
I encourage anyone with questions to pick up a rosary, and walk through the life of Christ, hand in hand with the Mother of God. You may just be amazed at how God can use this simple, humble devotion to draw you so near to His son.
I think before I get back into the need to “defend mom” mode that I’m often tempted by in threads such as this, that we should all step back and ask Mary how she feels about it.
Be careful though…she may just tell you to come home and experience her Son in His church
I encourage anyone with questions to pick up a rosary, and walk through the life of Christ, hand in hand with the Mother of God. You may just be amazed at how God can use this simple, humble devotion to draw you so near to His son.
I think before I get back into the need to “defend mom” mode that I’m often tempted by in threads such as this, that we should all step back and ask Mary how she feels about it.
Be careful though…she may just tell you to come home and experience her Son in His church
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