To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[CentralFLJames]

A big problem that we have in this area is that Protestants are taught by some fundamentalist Protestant preachers and anti-Catholics the lie that Catholics worship Mary. After they are brainwashed with this over and over to demonize Catholics the well meaning Protestant lay person never bothers to personally look into just what it is Catholics really do. All they hear is the ignorant and bigoted message that “Catholics are Marian worshipping bead counters”. What they fail to learn is what the rosary really is. If they knew they would feel shame at ever thinking Catholics are worshipping Mary and would feel ashamed that they were not doing even a fraction of the devotional prayers and worship to God as pious Catholics do.

If they even looked at a Rosary they would see it starts off with the crucifix - Mary immediately brings us to the foot of the cross with the rosary. From there comes the proclamation of faith - The Creed - the same prayer that old conservative Protestants still pray since they got it from us Catholics. From there it progresses through an our father, 3 hail Mary’s 1 Our Father then 5 decades (on the popular small rosary) of Hail Mary prayers with Our Fathers and Glory Be’s between each decades in its simple form.

If they knew the history of the rosary they would know that the laity in the 1200s era church could not read and could not recite the 150 psalms the educated clergy could; bibles and prayer books were rare and limited anyway. In this time, religious orders recited together the 150 Psalms as a way to mark the hours of the day and the days of the week. Those people who didn’t know how to read wanted to share in this practice, so praying on a string of 150 beads or knots began as a parallel to praying the psalms. It was a way that the illiterate could remember the Lord and his mother throughout the day. The “Divine Office”; the official prayer of the church; is the recitation of the psalms over a four week period, and is still prayed today.

So the rosary was a way for the lay man to do 150 prayers (the full rosary is 15 decades or 3x around on the popular 5 decade rosary) each liturgical period just like the clergy but all he had to commit to memory was 5 prayers (Creed, Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be, Hail Holy Queen) and 5 gospel meditations that were easy to remember. The idea was to make prayer life more inclusive for the laity; not everyone had to be a priest or deacon to participate in the Liturgy of The Hours and the more pious prayer life of the monks etc.

Here I want to demonstrate that the rosary is pure worship to God and only limited to veneration of Mary. As well I want to prove that if Catholics are said to be worshiping Mary then detractors must also claim the angels worshipped Mary since the main prayers are all literally out of scripture and from the annunciation.

**Difference Between Worship and Veneration: **

KEY:
[sup]W[/sup] indicates semantics of worship/praise
[sup]V[/sup] indicates semantics of veneration/honor
[sup]I[/sup] indicates semantics of Invocation/Addressing
[sup]P[/sup] indicates semantics of supplication and petition
[sup]S[/sup] indicates text derived from literal scripture

OUR FATHER Prayer[sup]S Mat 6:9[/sup]
Our Father who art in Heaven[sup]I[/sup], hallowed be Thy name[sup]W[/sup] Thy kingdom come[sup]W[/sup]; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven[sup]W[/sup].Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us[sup]S[/sup]. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.[sup]S[/sup] Amen.

Hail Mary Prayer
Hail Mary full of grace[sup]I[/sup] the lord is with thee[sup]I,S Luke 1:28 [/sup]; blessed art thou among women[sup]S Luke 1:41-42a; Luke 1:48 [/sup] , and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus[sup]V, S Luke 1:42b; Mt. 7:17-18 [/sup], Holy Mary, Mother of God[sup]V S Luke 1:43[/sup], pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death[sup]P S Luke 2:35; John 2:5[/sup]. Amen.

Glory Be Prayer

Glory Be to the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be forever and ever! Amen.[sup]W[/sup]

QED - its clear from the above prayer break down that Catholics worship God and venerate Mary. If anyone wants to debate it they better take it up wth St. Michael and St. Elizabeth since its all right out of their mouths and being scripture its also God Breathed!

James

 

[David47]

soutane

Dear David before you criticise me please use the search function and peruse the erstwhile SIA’s posts.His posts were indeed venomous and were calculated to sting,annoy and vex.

He was finally banned for his unChristian behaviour here at CA.

I do not apologise for anything I have posted with regard to this odious anti-Catholic.As I posted before being Christ-like does not entail a willingness to be metaphorically kicked in the face repeatedly.Even Christ picked up a whip.

I refuse to allow my faith to be slandered,libeled,lied about,particularly when the guilty party has been corrected charitably on many occasions.I am sorry if I have offended your delicate sensibilities but if you’re going to be around here for any length of time,you had better develop a thicker skin.

I HAVE apologised when I’ve been wrong both publicly and privately.But not this time.

The back alley remark was cheap and uncalled for and in my opinion calculated to provoke.

Not exactly holier than thou are you?

The back alley remark was not to provoke only to let you know what my perceptions were. And if I perceive this how many others have the same thoughts?
Just for your information and this is my perception, to walk into your church and be greeted by you (having read and I have read the entire thread as you suggested) I would have some trepidation ( only my perception ).
My post was to remind all that lurkers are here and wanting to learn or understand. This is NOT anyones personal forum but a forum for all to come, you did invite all and should expect some diversity.
I’m not that delicate and for my self have a very thick skin, however there was a time when I was delicate and was very vunerable as many who read these posts, those are the ones that concern me and I am sure the Christ does too.
Incidently I have never or ever will say that I am holier than thou. I did come here to learn but have learned not what I thought it would, it seems every one has their own agenda and their own horn to blow.
May God bless you all

yours in Christ
David

 

[ufamtobie]

Excuse me Bill…but I believe that your post is “off topic”…unless of course you are referring to the original posting that opened this thread?

Leeann,

As of 1/24/09 I did some research on you, I checked your profile and I welcome everyone to do the same… and quite frankly I became a “BELIEVER” AS WELL I Believe this…Girrrrl, you got a Problem!

What in the World did Virgin Mary ever do to YOU!?

The only two threads you are concerned is about at CAF and have only written to is about Virgin Mary, Here are the Threads below:

1st. The Thread you Posted “Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom the Apostles have pointed him…Mary or Jesus.” By Leeann

2nd is the thread I posted "RE: To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary! By Ufam Tobie

Leeann, you seem to be only STUCK at these 2 threads, WHY?

The 1st. thread you have submitted 23 replys

The 2nd thread you have submitted submitted 27 replys

Again, what did Virgin Mary ever do to YOU, that you have hate for her?

Leeann, I also see you have a beautiful Picture of a Woman’s hand holding a baby’s Hand. Is this not contradictory on your part!
I say this, for at the End there will only be one Mother and her name is the Blessed Virgin Mary! AMEN

Leeann, do you consider Virgin Mary your Mother?

Remember it was God who instituded the Family as we all know it today, in this world. Therefore, if God is Our Father and Jesus is our Brother, now in heaven this family will be awkward without a Mother! Therefore Jesus Christ on the Cross gave his LAST COMMAND while YET ALIVE and that is for John to take Mary as his Mother: You will find this in the Bible verse below:

(John 19: 26-28) Seeing his Mother there with the disciple whom he loved, Jesus said said to His Mother, “Woman, there is your son.” (Leean this means you too) In turn he said to the disciple, “THERE IS YOUR MOTHER.” From that hour onward, the disciple took her into his care. (Leeann, FYI you should do the same.) From that HOUR onward, Virgin Mary became our MOTHER, from Our Lords Own Mouth!

Leeann, Immediately after Jesus said “woman this is your son, John this is your Mother.” Jesus Realizes EVERYTHING WAS NOW FINISHED! Leeann, WOW! ONLY AFTER THIS! ONLY AFTER THIS SAYING, DID JESUS REALIZE IT WAS FINISHED!

Again, Jesus Christ LAST COMMAND while Yet Alive on the Cross to us all, is, “THERE IS YOUR MOTHER.!”

So please Obey Our Lords Last Command, thats if you want to be related to Jesus!

Leeann, I ask you is Virgin Mary your Mother or Not? Answer wisely on this matter because if you answer wrong, wrong will be on your side and Jesus will not be your brother.

Leeann, Truth is, it is YOU who consider Virgin Mary an Idol and it is these two threads The One you wrote and the One I wrote, as an Idol as well, becasue you seem to be STUCK on these two threads:thumbsup:

But I am sure after you read this you will move along to another thread, cause it is time you leave Mama, aka Virgin Mary, alone!

“TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY!”

Ufam Tobie

 

[Napsack]

Protestants,

The Truth is that nowhere in Catholic literature or in Catholic History since Pentacost to this day will you ever find a document which directs Catholics to WORSHIP Mary. You will, however, find many documents which say we VENERATE her.

Protestants the definition of WORSHIP and VENERATE in the dictionary

Venerate: “To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference.”

Worship: “The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object.”

The Fifth Commandments is “Honor your Father and your Mother.”

Protestants, do you honor your father and mother? Do you respect them? Of Course you do.

This is what we Catholics do we honour/respect our parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary being our Mother we do the same.

Protestants, do you worship your parents? Of course not, and neither do us Catholics worship our parents. However, it is the Fifth Commandment that we should Venerate/Honor them as we do Virgin Mary our Heavenly Mother for all eternity.

Worship and Venerate according to the definition found in the Dictionary and in Every Catholic Heart, these two words have quite different meanings.

Through the Grace of God, I have been a Catholic 44 years and Counting and I have many family members and friends also who are strong Catholics never once have we Worshiped Virgin Mary

Protestants, I know for a fact you heard all this before, but you have your eyes and mind closed to the Truth! You must believe that we worship Mary, you must in order to try to justify your disobedience To Mary, in which you are breaking the Fifth Commandment for she is Our Mother and she deserves to be venerated/honored daily! “All GENERATIONS WILL CALL ME BLESSED.” Is calling Mary Blessed, is this only for Chistmas time, if that, is this the only time you remember to call her Blessed. If it is Shame on you.

There is not a day that goes by that I forget to call Mary Blessed and that goes for the Catholic Church as well.

Protestants, will you leap for Joy for Mary? Doing so would you consider this being Worshiping or Venerating Mary?

John the Baptist in the Womb of Elizabeth LEAPT for Joy when he heard Mary’s Voice. Is John worshiping or venerating Mary? John, is venerating Mary and if a “baby” has the Knowledge/Grace form God to venerate Mary, then I think you Protestants should to.

Then again if God Has Not given you the Grace to have this Knoweldge such as a Baby, then You should all ask God for it.

Protestants, show me this document/teaching of the Church that tell us Catholics that we should worship Mary?

44 years being Catholic, I never came across this Teaching of the Church.

Truth is you can’t find this Document/Teaching it does not exist and since it does not Exist, you will Never find it! Case Closed!

Ufamtobie

Please don’t take this in a personal way, but I believe that Catholics do indeed worship Mary. The fact is that because of what they have been taught, they may not even realize it. To refer to someone other than Christ and say that the person is our life, our sweetness and our hope speaks volumes in my mind about the person whom they are referring to and even more so about what they are not saying about Christ himself.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

To refer to someone other than Christ and say that the person is our life, our sweetness and our hope speaks volumes in my mind about the person whom they are referring to

I have said very similar things of and to my wife. I have said similar things to my mother whom I love a great deal and I would also say similar things of my 7 month son. I do not worship these people, I love these people.

Perhaps the fact that people do not have people who they can say this about in their lives says more about them than it says about Catholics. And for that I am truly sorry for them and will pray for them.

We don’t worship Mary.

God bless

 

[CentralFLJames]

Please don’t take this in a personal way, but I believe that Catholics do indeed worship Mary. The fact is that because of what they have been taught, they may not even realize it. To refer to someone other than Christ and say that the person is our life, our sweetness and our hope speaks volumes in my mind about the person whom they are referring to and even more so about what they are not saying about Christ himself.

Let me help you get sorted out here in your confused judgement.

First of all you are using only a single prayer “The Hail Holy Queen” said at the end of the rosary out of the 67 total prayers prayed on a small Dominican Rosary (5 decades) to make this statement. The other prayers are all literally right out of scripture as I have indicated in my prior post. So right up front you are picking “nits” on 1/67 (1.5%) of the total prayers.

Secondly that last prayer if you read it in its entirety directly addresses Mary as both Queen and ADVOCATE. That is by definition a subordinate position to God and Jesus. There is no way that this prayer can be construed as worship because it’s intrinsically subordinate to God in every semantic context.

KEY:
[sup]W[/sup] indicates semantics of worship/praise
[sup]V[/sup] indicates semantics of veneration/honor
[sup]I[/sup] indicates semantics of Invocation/Addressing
[sup]P[/sup] indicates semantics of supplication and petition
[sup]S[/sup] indicates text derived from literal scripture

Hail Holy Queen
Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! our life, our sweetness, and our hope![sup]I V[/sup]! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up ot sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears[sup]I P[/sup]. Turn then, most gracious Advocate thine eyes of mercy toward us[sup]I V[/sup]; after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus[sup]W [Worship of Jesus through affirmation][/sup]; O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. [sup]I V P[/sup] Pray for us, O holy Mother of God that we may be made worthy[sup] I V P[/sup] of the promises of Christ[sup]W [of Jesus][/sup]. Amen

The above prayer in its invocations and titles is also derived from scripture - but I don’t have the time to present all of it here at this moment.

Clearly, this prayer is acknowledging Mary as Jesus’ mother and in a subordinate relationship to Jesus and directing veneration while also asking for her help and intercession (praying for us to God) to remain worthy of the promises of a Christian.

After seeing the whole prayer in context only an anti-Catholic with an agenda to smear Catholics or holding to a stubborn but taught hatred for Catholics would go so far as to extend any semantic of superior (above God and Jesus) worship to Mary in this prayer. What Protestants don’t like about this prayer is the higher order veneration that Catholics extend than what Protestants want to acknowledge. The reason is because Protestants do not see her in the titular roles of “Queen” (even though its plain in Book of Revelation) or are unable to logically form an equivalence of expressions between “Mother of Jesus” as “Mother of Mercy” due to their own doctrinal bias (that being Mary is a mere mother and nothing special). The latter thing is a mental anomaly more so then it is a doctrinal problem for them. And the titular roles extended are all backable by scripture as well. But the mistake Protestants would make here is in equating an earthly tile of Queen and its authority with a precise equivalence to divinity rather than as a side-by-side heavenly relationship with a cooperatively shared or deferred authority as God elects at HIS discretion. Catholics completely reject any notion that Queen Mother forms an equivalence with God or Jesus since no created being can ever be equivalenced with Divinity.

I hope this clarifies things.

James

 

[adrift]

Please don’t take this in a personal way, but I believe that Catholics do indeed worship Mary. The fact is that because of what they have been taught, they may not even realize it. To refer to someone other than Christ and say that the person is our life, our sweetness and our hope speaks volumes in my mind about the person whom they are referring to and even more so about what they are not saying about Christ himself.

You cannot worship without realizing it. It does not happen by accident. Seems I have heard that before.

(and you can’t ‘unintentionally’ worship somebody).

Worship is believing that you worship God. What you are saying is that Catholics believe Mary is a god. This is one thing that non-Catholics fail to realize. An idol is considered a god or it is not an idol. Mary is a created being and Catholic believe that she is so in no way shape or form is it worship. To have someone as sweetness, life and hope is not saying they are God. These are not terms that can be used solely for God. If they are, than you should be yelling at the democratic party.

 

[Leeann]

Tantum ergo:

Can you explain why there isn’t a big fuss about how many people are breaking the law about stealing–because there are far more people who admit to either deliberately or ‘unintentionally’ stealing–than there are people who deliberately worship Mary. (and you can’t ‘unintentionally’ worship somebody).

( I’ll preface this with “this is not offered in a sarcastic manner – just a straight answer” )

Perhaps there isn’t as big a fuss about how may people are “breaking the law by stealing” – because they may not consider stealing to be as sacrilegious as “worshipping someone other than God.”

You state “there are far more people who admit to either deliberate or unintentionally stealing”…how you know that for certain, I don’t know… but perhaps there just aren’t as many people that admit to deliberately worshipping Mary?

 

[Bill_Pick]

( I’ll preface this with “this is not offered in a sarcastic manner – just a straight answer” )

Perhaps there isn’t as big a fuss about how may people are “breaking the law by stealing” – because they may not consider stealing to be as sacrilegious as “worshipping someone other than God.”

You state “there are far more people who admit to either deliberate or unintentionally stealing”…how you know that for certain, I don’t know… but perhaps there just aren’t as many people that admit to deliberately worshipping Mary?

For those who believe, no explanation is necessary.
For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.

 

[BGrahamPLV]

Ahh yes…

I myself am gifted with what I like to refer to as excessive conscientiousness.

Why then did Luther wish to leave out the book of James?

Well…excessive is better than none at all. I think many people need to reflect on their own lives more often and make sure they are doing what it pleasing to God. Peace

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Of course, it could just be that we Catholics (as we have maintained all along) simply don’t worship Mary.

And how does somebody '*unknowingly *worship Mary" anyway? I’m pretty sure you still haven’t answered me on that. . .

Because it appears that you seem to think that many of us Catholics are ‘really’ worshipping Mary even though we steadfastly maintain we are not.

Is it possible to worship unknowingly? Is it then possible, LeeAnn, that you yourself worship someone other than God?

If not, why?

 

[Leeann]

ufamtobie
The only two threads you are concerned is about at CAF and have only written to is about Virgin Mary, Here are the Threads below:

1st. The Thread you Posted “Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom the Apostles have pointed him…Mary or Jesus.” By Leeann

2nd is the thread I posted "RE: To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary! By Ufam Tobie

Leeann, you seem to be only STUCK at these 2 threads, WHY?

The 1st. thread you have submitted 23 replys

The 2nd thread you have submitted submitted 27 replys

If you go back and read through the posts as you said you’ve done and actually read them - not just “count them” - you will see why.

ufamtobie
Again, what did Virgin Mary ever do to YOU, that you have hate for her?

The word “hate” is your word…not mine.

ufamtobie
Leeann, I also see you have a beautiful Picture of a Woman’s hand holding a baby’s Hand. Is this not contradictory on your part!

No.

Leeann, do you consider Virgin Mary your Mother?

No.

ufamtobie
Therefore, if God is Our Father and Jesus is our Brother, now in heaven this family will be awkward without a Mother! Therefore Jesus Christ on the Cross gave his LAST COMMAND while YET ALIVE and that is for John to take Mary as his Mother: You will find this in the Bible verse below:

(John 19: 26-28) Seeing his Mother there with the disciple whom he loved, Jesus said said to His Mother, “Woman, there is your son.” (Leean this means you too) In turn he said to the disciple, “THERE IS YOUR MOTHER.” From that hour onward, the disciple took her into his care. (Leeann, FYI you should do the same.) From that HOUR onward, Virgin Mary became our MOTHER, from Our Lords Own Mouth!

Leeann, Immediately after Jesus said “woman this is your son, John this is your Mother.” Jesus Realizes EVERYTHING WAS NOW FINISHED! Leeann, WOW! ONLY AFTER THIS! ONLY AFTER THIS SAYING, DID JESUS REALIZE IT WAS FINISHED!

Well that’s not exactly accurate ufamtobie….there was one more thing that Jesus did so that scripture would be fulfilled before declaring “It is finished!” He asked for a drink.
If you are in error on that, perhaps you are incorrect elsewhere?

John 19 (Duoay Rheims)
26 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. 27 After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. 28 Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst. 29Now there was a vessel set there full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar and hyssop, put it to his mouth. 30 Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said: It is consummated. (FINISHED) And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost.

The scripture made reference too : *Ps 68:22 –22 And they gave me gall for my food, and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

ufamtobie
Again, Jesus Christ LAST COMMAND while Yet Alive on the Cross to us all, is, “THERE IS YOUR MOTHER.!”

A“command”?

ufamtobie
So please Obey Our Lords Last Command, thats if you want to be related to Jesus!

You have to have Mary as your mother in order to be related to Jesus? Is this what the Catholic Church teaches?

ufamtobie
Leeann, I ask you is Virgin Mary your Mother or Not?
Answer wisely on this matter because if you answer wrong, wrong will be on your side and Jesus will not be your brother.

I already answered that question. NO.
Jesus is my Lord and Saviour…and Mary’s also and **that **is how we are related in Christ…part of His Body.

**Mark 3: 31-35
31 And his mother and his brethren came; and standing without, sent unto him, calling him. 32 And the multitude sat about him; and they say to him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. 33 And answering them, he said: Who is my mother and my brethren? 34 **And looking round about on them who sat about him, he saith: Behold my mother and my brethren. 35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, he is my brother, and my sister, and mother. **

Jesus tells us who His family is, “all that do the will of God.”**

According to your own words above, you understand that if we don’t have Mary as our “Mother” we cannot be related to Jesus. Who told you that?

 

[adrift]

If you go back and read through the posts as you said you’ve done and actually read them - not just “count them” - you will see why.

The word “hate” is your word…not mine.

No.

No.

Well that’s not exactly accurate ufamtobie….there was one more thing that Jesus did so that scripture would be fulfilled before declaring “It is finished!” He asked for a drink.
If you are in error on that, perhaps you are incorrect elsewhere?

John 19 (Duoay Rheims)
26 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. 27 After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. 28 Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst. 29Now there was a vessel set there full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar and hyssop, put it to his mouth. 30 Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said: It is consummated. (FINISHED) And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost.

The scripture made reference too : *Ps 68:22 –22 And they gave me gall for my food, and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

A“command”?

You have to have Mary as your mother in order to be related to Jesus? Is this what the Catholic Church teaches?

I already answered that question. NO.
Jesus is my Lord and Saviour…and Mary’s also and **that **is how we are related in Christ…part of His Body.

Mark 3: 31-35
31 And his mother and his brethren came; and standing without, sent unto him, calling him. 32 And the multitude sat about him; and they say to him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. 33 And answering them, he said: Who is my mother and my brethren? 34 **And looking round about on them who sat about him, he saith: Behold my mother and my brethren. 35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, he is my brother, and my sister, and mother. **

Jesus tells us who His family is, “all that do the will of God.”

According to your own words above, you understand that if we don’t have Mary as our “Mother” we cannot be related to Jesus. Who told you that?

This would make an interesting OTHER thread. It has nothing to do with Catholics worshiping Mary which they do not.

 

[Napsack]

Let me help you get sorted out here in your confused judgement.

First of all you are using only a single prayer “The Hail Holy Queen” said at the end of the rosary out of the 67 total prayers prayed on a small Dominican Rosary (5 decades) to make this statement. The other prayers are all literally right out of scripture as I have indicated in my prior post. So right up front you are picking “nits” on 1/67 (1.5%) of the total prayers.

Secondly that last prayer if you read it in its entirety directly addresses Mary as both Queen and ADVOCATE. That is by definition a subordinate position to God and Jesus. There is no way that this prayer can be construed as worship because it’s intrinsically subordinate to God in every semantic context.

KEY:
[sup]W[/sup] indicates semantics of worship/praise
[sup]V[/sup] indicates semantics of veneration/honor
[sup]I[/sup] indicates semantics of Invocation/Addressing
[sup]P[/sup] indicates semantics of supplication and petition
[sup]S[/sup] indicates text derived from literal scripture

Hail Holy Queen
Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! our life, our sweetness, and our hope![sup]I V[/sup]! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up ot sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears[sup]I P[/sup]. Turn then, most gracious Advocate thine eyes of mercy toward us[sup]I V[/sup]; after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus[sup]W [Worship of Jesus through affirmation][/sup]; O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. [sup]I V P[/sup] Pray for us, O holy Mother of God that we may be made worthy[sup] I V P[/sup] of the promises of Christ[sup]W [of Jesus][/sup]. Amen

The above prayer in its invocations and titles is also derived from scripture - but I don’t have the time to present all of it here at this moment.

Clearly, this prayer is acknowledging Mary as Jesus’ mother and in a subordinate relationship to Jesus and directing veneration while also asking for her help and intercession (praying for us to God) to remain worthy of the promises of a Christian.

After seeing the whole prayer in context only an anti-Catholic with an agenda to smear Catholics or holding to a stubborn but taught hatred for Catholics would go so far as to extend any semantic of superior (above God and Jesus) worship to Mary in this prayer. What Protestants don’t like about this prayer is the higher order veneration that Catholics extend than what Protestants want to acknowledge. The reason is because Protestants do not see her in the titular roles of “Queen” (even though its plain in Book of Revelation) or are unable to logically form an equivalence of expressions between “Mother of Jesus” as “Mother of Mercy” due to their own doctrinal bias (that being Mary is a mere mother and nothing special). The latter thing is a mental anomaly more so then it is a doctrinal problem for them. And the titular roles extended are all backable by scripture as well. But the mistake Protestants would make here is in equating an earthly tile of Queen and its authority with a precise equivalence to divinity rather than as a side-by-side heavenly relationship with a cooperatively shared or deferred authority as God elects at HIS discretion. Catholics completely reject any notion that Queen Mother forms an equivalence with God or Jesus since no created being can ever be equivalenced with Divinity.

I hope this clarifies things.

James

"Thanks for your reply, but I am still convinced that this is most certainly worship. Catholics apply many titles to Mary that cannot be supported by the Bible. In fact, the Bible shows a much different Mary than the Catholic church does. I’m very uncomfortable with the way Mary is elevated in the Catholic church. I would never sing songs in regard to Mary nor profess that Salvation can only be gotten through Mary.

 

[Leeann]

Of course, it could just be that we Catholics (as we have maintained all along) simply don’t worship Mary.

And how does somebody '*unknowingly *worship Mary" anyway? I’m pretty sure you still haven’t answered me on that. . .

Because it appears that you seem to think that many of us Catholics are ‘really’ worshipping Mary even though we steadfastly maintain we are not.

Is it possible to worship unknowingly? Is it then possible, LeeAnn, that you yourself worship someone other than God?

If not, why?

I almost missed this post Tantum…didn’t realize at first you were addressing me until I read further down.

I think what threw me was your second line…about somebody “unknowingly worshipping Mary”….and expecting an answer from me on that….I believe it was another poster(s)? that stated something about that, perhaps they can elaborate for you?

I’ve never really thought about it Tantum….about the possibility of being able to ”worship unknowingly”.

 

[Leeann]

This would make an interesting OTHER thread. It has nothing to do with Catholics worshiping Mary which they do not.

You’re absolutely right adrift!
And I’m glad you mentioned it and not me!

ATTENTION: UFAMTOBIE…NO MORE “OFF TOPIC” POSTINGS - THANK YOU

 

[adrift]

You’re absolutely right adrift!
And I’m glad you mentioned it and not me!

ATTENTION: UFAMTOBIE…NO MORE “OFF TOPIC” POSTINGS - THANK YOU

 

[adrift]

"Thanks for your reply, but I am still convinced that this is most certainly worship. Catholics apply many titles to Mary that cannot be supported by the Bible. In fact, the Bible shows a much different Mary than the Catholic church does. I’m very uncomfortable with the way Mary is elevated in the Catholic church. I would never sing songs in regard to Mary nor profess that Salvation can only be gotten through Mary.

Convinced? I am convinced you do not know what worship is. Titles do not make worship. Are you saying that Mary did not have Jesus because that is the way, Mary having Jesus, that salvation did come to us. Now Jesus could have chosen to come from a flower pod but He didn’t. He chose a woman to bear Him. Substantiate your claim. Show where the Catholic Church believes Mary is a god. If you can’t do that than you cannot truly be convinced.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Convinced? I am convinced you do not know what worship is. Titles do not make worship. Are you saying that Mary did not have Jesus because that is the way, Mary having Jesus, that salvation did come to us. Now Jesus could have chosen to come from a flower pod but He didn’t. He chose a woman to bear Him. Substantiate your claim. Show where the Catholic Church believes Mary is a god. If you can’t do that than you cannot truly be convinced.

ooooo now protestant are now saying mary is a god whats next the pope is santa and from some one will not tell us her denomination

 

[CradleRC]

I have resolved for myself that this will be my own Marian Year and I ask my fellow Catholics to join me is reciting the Rosary as often as time will allow. If you do not have a rosary, go to your religious store, get the kit, and consider making one for yourself. Or you can go to Wal-Mart, for instance, and purchase a crucifx, beads, wire, and the plyers. It really makes a great hobby.
Now as to the topic at hand, let’s admit and stipulate that SOME Catholics, particularly Europeans do WORSHIP MARY. At least that is what they call it. Of course, this is a serious error on their fault since God said “…you shall not bow down or worship them.” (Exodus 19:5 NAB)
That being said, let me ask a very pertinent question: What significance did Mary play in the story of Salvation? We all know the story in Luke of how the Archangel Gabriel greeted Mary. “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” (Luke 1:28 NAB). In greeting her visiting cousin Mary, Elizabeth cried out “Most blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb (Jesus)” Luke 1:42 NAB). Since “The Spirit of the Most HIgh will overshadow you … the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God”. (loc cit.), Mary herself is holy, set aside by the Father for the Son. You can read the rest for yourself.
Mary leads us to her Son. At the wedding feast of Canaan (John 2:5 NAB), Mary tells the servants “Do whatever He tells you.” In prayer, the Blessed Mother, our mother (see John 19:26 "When Jesus saw His mother (our mother since Jesus is our Brother as well as our Saviour), He said “Woman, behold your son…”
One more thing. James 5:16 says “…the prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.” In other translations, the quote is “…the prayers of a righteous person avails much.”
People, other than Christ Himself, who is more righteous than our Blessed Mother who sits as the Queen of Heaven before the Prince of Peace? Certainly we can and should pray to Jesus Christ our Saviour. Don’t we write letters to our personal friends? But who prays more fervently and perfectly than the Mother of God, who heart was pierced by sword for her Son (Luke 3:35 NAB). I will end here. “Pray for us, sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.”