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Soutane
Guest
I agree with your assessment of the state of the ox.In this thread it has been gored,tormented, vexed,and eviscerated.
- Status
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Soutane
Guest
In no other country but Mexico have I seen such devotion and unaffected worship at mass.And the masses were packed-standing room only.MY Irish Catholic mother would have been thrilled to worship with them.
To all hispanic Catholics and lurkers out there,I apologise to you on behalf of the more prejudiced bigots on this board who feel that you are too stupid and ignorant and uneducated to worship God in a fitting fashion.
Please forgive them.Please pray for them.
To all hispanic Catholics and lurkers out there,I apologise to you on behalf of the more prejudiced bigots on this board who feel that you are too stupid and ignorant and uneducated to worship God in a fitting fashion.
Please forgive them.Please pray for them.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
This is an irrelevant fact for the most part since it is also true that the majority of the pagans and non religious around the world are not well-educated either - billions in fact.
Are you one of those people out in front of the Catholic Churches begging for money after services?
How do you imagine to know who is attending mass? As best I can tell you are not even Catholic. Or do you just like to hang out on Sunday mornings and “people watch”? Before you click your palm-counter tool do you ask any show you a diploma?And really, do you have any idea how many uneducated Protestant kids light birthday cake candles on their cakes and after making a wish blow them out and wait for their wishes to come true? Do you think they need a home school diploma
before they can discern the difference between the fantasy wish of the tooth fairy, Santa clause and prayers to God? Do you imagine God knows how to differentiate one from the other? 
Or is this all idolatry too?Thanks for admitting it finally - you don’t really know what worship is at all do you? That’s not surprising though.
But you might be right on the bit about people going to where they get results. Our Lady of Guadalupe is a very powerful devotional with many documented cases of intercessory miracles. But this just goes to make the Catholic case for why veneration and intercession can be so efficacious. If it didn’t work no one would do it now would they?
BTW you are still projecting your own bias and assuming that veneration is equivalenced with the same kind of higher ordered worship that Catholics give to God. It is not. You have yet to make the distinctions of kinds of worship and veneration much less prove anyone is guilty of the false worship you can’t even define.
Please, let’s get back to basics before you go spewing anymore of bilge quality ignorance in here. Since you don’t know what worship is do you know what prayer is? Do you have even a clue of the many different forms of prayer Catholics use?
Prayers and devotions to the Virgin Mary and the saints are a common part of Catholic life but are distinct from the worship of God. In essence by venerating God’s saints Catholics are also indirectly worshiping God - just not in the highest sense we have available to us. Also, to be considered is the interior state of the person praying - are they in a state of grace? This is why I really questioned before if most Protestants without a priesthood are technically even minimally venerating God to the same level Catholics venerate their saints.
It is The Catholic Mass that is BY FAR (light-years beyond prayer) the higest and best worship any human on the planet can give to God. Therefor it is hardly possible for a catholic in good standing who goes to mass to over-venerate a saint through simple prayer. The liturgy of the mass is highly protected and safeguarded by the magisterium - no one could change the words to worship a saint without being automatically excommunicated. It would be a complete idolatry; and a profanation of the consecration of the altar, the priest and church as well.
The ecclesial authority of The Church oversees the liturgy of the Mass - and in the Catholic Mass is were true formal and acceptable (to God) formal worship takes place.
Prayer offered outside of the mass (with the exception of the Liturgy of the Hours - which technically is a external continuation of the mass for the clergy and very pious Catholics to pray) is not really worship in the same sense of the mass but rather just one of a number of different kinds of prayer.
[continued]
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
[continued from prior]
A Few Different Kinds of Catholic Prayer:
PLEASE…
James
A Few Different Kinds of Catholic Prayer:
Most children and uneducated do not use an adoration or “worship” form of prayer - this is a higher level prayer that most Catholic adults do except in the mass or during the Rosary - “Glory be to God” and “Our Father”). Most adults routinely do petition, thanks, contrition, intercession and contemplative prayer. But most children just use simple conversational prayer or prayers of thanks or prayers of petition (in their own words) or else recite simple “children’s prayers” of petition & thanks. Do you think God would take offense if a child asked Mary to please ask God to let her crippled brother be healed or take that as worship??? Please - be reasonable here. And really, do you imagine that Mary would not pray to God for such a child? Can we at least rule out that you trust that Mary would not want to take the child’s prayer as worship and keep it all to herself?
PLEASE…
James
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AshleyBelle
Guest
Code:
I've found it "odd" too... at best. One of the beautiful things about the Catholic Church that always puts me in a state of awe, is just realizing that God truly has made His Church universal. I could go to any country in the world and celebrate mass with the people even if I didn't speak their language. And I would still be celebrating the same mass and partaking of the same Eucharist that exists in my home parish and in Rome. What a blessing to be a part of the Holy Catholic Church!God bless!
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Napsack
Guest
I think 1234 is right. I have seen it numerous times. Let’s not get into this baiting game here where you try and explain away the obvious. I have seen many Hispanics kneel before a statue of Mary praying and asking her to do divine things for them. Fact. Call it what you wish but that’s blatant Mary worship and clear idolotry.
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adrift
Guest
Are you really 1234? You are the one who baiting. It is you who try to explain away the obvious. Kneeling before anything does not prove worship. I have seen other faiths kneel before the bible. According to you, they are then worshiping a book. They are not asking of her divine things. You say this because you now realize that in order to make it worship they have to think of her as god. How do you know what they are asking? You don’t you are trying to say you have knowledge which only God can have. Are you now claiming to be a god? Must be if you know what is in peoples thoughts and prayers.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Unfortunately – your ridiculous charges require a thorough reply. This will be long.
Right up front let me say that as a non-Catholic you sure seem to spend a lot of time inside Catholic Churches watching all these things. Are you someone that just likes to lurk about in Catholic Churches or are you the hired help?
Except for janitors and maintenance workers most Church workers are volunteers. Hmmm, can we account for this apparent disdain for Hispanics by projecting the possibility that you might feel some job threat from Hispanics - who often volunteer their time to help the Church? While you ponder that – please explain how you get inside a person’s head and heart to know what they are saying to God? If you claim they always pray aloud then we can infer you speak Spanish too? Really – this is a rare exhibition of judgmentalism and bigotry for these forums.As for kneeling and bowing:
Firstly understand that not all kneeling or bowing is worship. For example kneeling or curtsying before a King is a sign of respect - not worship in most cases. Secondly, you need to understand that The Catholic Church is ancient and our traditions are ancient. They reflect certain aspects of the cultures from which we came. The Jews used to all kneel in temple worship - and a Jewish son would kneel before their fathers when getting a family blessing. Even the Magi bowed down before Mary and Jesus to simultaneously worship and show respect.
Catholics simply continue to embrace our rich heritage and often bow or kneel in respect when we worship God in prayer (especially before the Eucharist and during the liturgy of the mass). We may also elect to remain kneeling during private prayers out of respect when praying numerous prayers – both to God and to His saints. God knows when to take it as worship and when to permit it as reverence or respect to his saints. There are some pragmatics here too. If we had to stand up from kneeling to prevent being taken for worshiping God each time we changed a prayer from worshiping God to petitioning a saint for an intercession, without a pre-planned prayer script we would be constantly jumping up and down. I think the Creator of the universe knows when one is intending to worship vs. reverencing without having to jump up and down - don’t you? Let me guess you do the easy thing and never kneel to God?
Kneeling really only seems so strange to you because you are apparently caught up in the new secular mores of neo-Americana. But this is a latent defect of our culture. Americans “worship” their personal freedoms by over-expressing their claim to equality by showing no reverence for anything. In fact it would seem that the new “code” of secular conduct would go so far as compel one to self disgrace through crassness or conspicuous indifference to authority just to embrace the least common denominator of “my right to do so”. What a pity that now you seem to want to use a defective interpretation of scripture to impose a pathological social condition on the Church to correct a problem that does not exist. Christians have always knelt in prayers – why should this change 2000 years after it was practiced? If Catholics stood up to pray just to comply with your line of (defective) reasoning you would have us abandon our traditions and mirror to God the same social abominations present in our current secular society. Frankly, I doubt God would want to be treated as “an equal” – much less be impressed with receiving the same lack of reverence and respect many Americans show each other.
God is Holy and so are His saints – worship God and reverence the latter.
[continued]
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
[continued from prior]
Now let me elaborate more on kneeling in the presence or proximity of statues:
Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, “You shall not bow down to them.” Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.
Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more so than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
There is also another pragmatic thing about statues - they are not only inspirational they are also essentially 'artistic" signs that say “this is a quite reserved place for prayer”. Churches can get busy on weekends for wedding preparations etc. and the statutes are often situated in private alcoves or off to the side for more quiet and privacy.
God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts (ref: Ex. 25:18–20, 1 Chr. 28:18–19,Ezekiel 41:17–18, Num. 21:8–9 ).
Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph. Be consistent please. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children - is it idolatry to stare at and contemplate these images too? After all, the bible does not have any pictures in it does it? What about those Protestant Christmas pageants where people dress up like Mary and Joseph and carry their child in as Jesus to the songs of Christmas Carols. Is this idolatry?
Something about your inconsistency tells me if you had it your way then it would be only Catholic religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and similar things that would be banned.
Is it sacrileges to put the words “In God We Trust” under the secular images of the Protestant leaders of this country (Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, Franklin et al) or just Catholic President Kennedy?
Do you pledge allegiance to the flag or do you consider that idolatry also? Would it change your opinion to know the little known fact that the words “under God” were not originally in the pledge and these words were added at the prompting and lobbying of the Knights of Columbus (a Catholic charitable and fraternal organization) and instituted into law on Flag Day, June 14, 1954? Maybe this accounts for why it is now a legal right to burn the flag?
The old laws against graven images were written at a time of formation of God’s people to prevent them from worshiping pagan images (golden cows, animals and the like). But once God started progressively revealing himself He himself demonstrated the forms by which He could be properly venerated and the rule was superseded by divine example. In fact God reveals Himself publicly in the divine-human form of Jesus - and images of Christ and crucifixes are certainly acceptable – Yes? The Holy Spirit also revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus, and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost. In fact most Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars. Ever seen the “Jesus Fish” (icthus) that your Protestant brothers run around town in (I see some of them at Catholic functions BTW).
All that said real idolatry is condemned by the Catholic Church from its earliest days.
The Second Council of Nicaea (787) condemns idolatry:
“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).
The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry.
More here:
catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp
James
Now let me elaborate more on kneeling in the presence or proximity of statues:
Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, “You shall not bow down to them.” Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.
Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more so than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
There is also another pragmatic thing about statues - they are not only inspirational they are also essentially 'artistic" signs that say “this is a quite reserved place for prayer”. Churches can get busy on weekends for wedding preparations etc. and the statutes are often situated in private alcoves or off to the side for more quiet and privacy.
God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts (ref: Ex. 25:18–20, 1 Chr. 28:18–19,Ezekiel 41:17–18, Num. 21:8–9 ).
Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph. Be consistent please. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children - is it idolatry to stare at and contemplate these images too? After all, the bible does not have any pictures in it does it?
What about those Protestant Christmas pageants where people dress up like Mary and Joseph and carry their child in as Jesus to the songs of Christmas Carols. Is this idolatry?Something about your inconsistency tells me if you had it your way then it would be only Catholic religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and similar things that would be banned.
Is it sacrileges to put the words “In God We Trust” under the secular images of the Protestant leaders of this country (Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, Franklin et al) or just Catholic President Kennedy?
Do you pledge allegiance to the flag or do you consider that idolatry also? Would it change your opinion to know the little known fact that the words “under God” were not originally in the pledge and these words were added at the prompting and lobbying of the Knights of Columbus (a Catholic charitable and fraternal organization) and instituted into law on Flag Day, June 14, 1954?
Maybe this accounts for why it is now a legal right to burn the flag?The old laws against graven images were written at a time of formation of God’s people to prevent them from worshiping pagan images (golden cows, animals and the like). But once God started progressively revealing himself He himself demonstrated the forms by which He could be properly venerated and the rule was superseded by divine example. In fact God reveals Himself publicly in the divine-human form of Jesus - and images of Christ and crucifixes are certainly acceptable – Yes? The Holy Spirit also revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus, and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost. In fact most Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars. Ever seen the “Jesus Fish” (icthus) that your Protestant brothers run around town in (I see some of them at Catholic functions BTW).
All that said real idolatry is condemned by the Catholic Church from its earliest days.
The Second Council of Nicaea (787) condemns idolatry:
The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).
“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).
The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry.
More here:
catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp
James
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Good_Fella
Guest
You have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for your benefit.
Ephesians 3, 2
No offense taken, I’m sure. Grace originates from God, but he desires and expects us to share the measure of grace we have received, in accordance with our spiritual gifts, with others for the benefit of their salvation. Paul teaches us that we are “stewards of God’s grace”, and he exemplified what he meant in his ministry as an apostle. He helped save many souls as a co-worker with God (1 Cor 3: 9). Moreover, Paul himself had asked others to pray for him, through whom he received the helping graces he needed to carry out his mission. (Eph 6: 18-20). And he placed his hope in their prayers confident that God would hear them and bestow on him the graces he needed. Conversely, Paul mediated graces from God to the Church through his prayers and sacrifices as a witness of Jesus in his apostolic ministry. (Phil 1: 3-5). Indeed, Paul says: “In my afflictions I make up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ” (Col 1: 24). Jesus desires that we assist him in saving souls now that he has redeemed the world by his death on the cross. We are all one family, children of God, and God is our loving Father. He has commanded us to love one another, and through our prayers and sacrifices offered in love God dispenses his grace to those whom we care for and present to him.
If we are afflicted, it’s for your encouragement and salvation.
2 Corinthians 1, 6
*
It is right that I should think this way about all of you, because I hold you in my heart, you who are all partakers of my grace.*
*Philippians 1, 7 *
True. Jesus alone is the Mediator between God and man, by which we mean only he could redeem the world and reconcile us with the Father by atoning for the sin of Adam and Eve. By dying on the cross, Jesus restored us to friendship with God and destroyed the complete state of alienation that existed between God and man on account of the fall of our first parents. Obviously, Mary does not possess the merits which belong only to Christ. Still all baptized Christians have been called to participate in the one mediation of our Lord. We participate in God’s plan of salvation by praying, witnessing, and making sacrifices for others in a true spirit of Christian charity as human mediums of God’s saving grace.
Mary performed the greatest spiritual work of mercy among any of Christ’s disciples by freely consenting to be the mother of Jesus. In perfect faith and love of God and neighbour she accepted the call of bringing the saviour into the world. She did more than channel God’s saving grace, she brought us the Source of all Grace Himself. The “handmaid of the Lord” is pre-eminent among all of God’s “co-workers” in the order of grace, for she is more closely associated with Jesus than any other of his disciples. We invoke Mary as ‘Mediatrix of all Grace’ by virtue of her Divine Maternity and the prefect conformity of her will to that of the Father in emulation of her divine Son. Mary was conceived preserved free from the stain of original sin, so she channels a fullness of grace as God’s steward - “perfected in grace” - beyond compare (Lk 1: 28) through her maternal prayerful intercession.
By cooperating with God in the Incarnation, as the Holy Mother of our Lord, Mary has been placed between “the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh”. She stands between the Saviour and mankind. As the ‘Theotokos’ (“God-bearer”) our Blessed Mother mediates Jesus - the source of all grace - to us. Through the gift of her Divine Maternity Mary is the steward of the fullness of grace. Thus she is the most powerful intercessor before our Lord among all the Saints. Her prayers wield more influence than those of any other saint in heaven or righteous person on earth. Meanwhile all Christians, however imperfect compared to Mary, continue to mediate Christ to others through their prayers, witnessing, and works of mercy, thereby sharing the measure of grace they have received from God with others according to their spiritual gifts in conformity with the will of the Father.
“And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment ‘the sound of your greeting’ reached my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.”
*Luke 1, 43-44 *
“O, how marvelous it is! She acts as a mediatrix between the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh, and becomes the Mother of our Creator.”
Andrew of Crete, Homily 1 on Mary’s Nativity (ante A.D. 749)
PAX :winter:
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Leeann
Guest
**Originally Posted by Leeann **
AHA!!! So there is a subset of Catholics that DO worship Mary!
Well isn’t it wonderful then that God didn’t worry about our lack of the fundamentals of logic, algebra and mathematical set theory when it came to His wonderful plan of salvation for all mankind being based on HIS grace and our faith in Jesus’ blood sacrifice!
It seems it’s only the Catholic Church’s “religion” that poses a stumbling block for some.
Kind of similar to how a lot of the doctrines/dogmas get developed in the Catholic Church!A vacuous truth is a truth that is devoid of content because it asserts something about all members of a class that is empty or because it says “If A then B” when in fact A is false. For example, the statement “all cell phones in the room are turned off” may be true simply because there is no cell phone in the room.
Example: “Mary was assumed into heaven” **may be true **simply because “Mary is no longer with us.”
Don’t sweat it CentralfLJames…a couple of Hail Marys and you’re good aren’t you?CentralfLJames
Keep trying though. Odds are if you say enough things as you randomly bump into stuff in the dark you will eventually stumble upon the truth; or at least succeed in saying something funny enough for the rest of us busily praying that you find the light switch to laugh with you rather than succumb to the temptation to laugh at you.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Yes His grace - a grace HE gives to others as a free gift that we MAY share with others. God’s children are all conduits of God’s grace and it is given for a purpose - to benefit each other and do The Father’s will.Well isn’t it wonderful then that God didn’t worry about our lack of the fundamentals of logic, algebra and mathematical set theory when it came to His wonderful plan of salvation for all mankind being based on HIS grace and our faith in Jesus’ blood sacrifice!
Religion is essential - it is the path and the disciplines necessary for safely traveling the road to the Promised Land (heaven). Deviate from that very narrow path but a little to go one’s own way is to try to enter by the wide gate that leads to destruction. Catholicism is “The Way” (Acts 9:2). It is “The Way” to follow in Jesus’ footsteps and to carry our cross after Him and enter by the narrow door that Jesus opens through His heart. “I Am The Way The Truth and The Light - come follow Me”. “Thou are Peter on this rock I build My Church”. “Do you Love me Peter?” “Shepherd My sheep”.It seems it’s only the Catholic Church’s “religion” that poses a stumbling block for some.
Can “The Way” be not any clearer?
The dogmas and doctrines all come to us through the workings of the Holy Spirit who will bring us to all truth - just as Jesus promised His Church.Kind of similar to how a lot of the doctrines/dogmas get developed in the Catholic Church!
I see that you are starting to “get it” but you rely too much on sensual based inferences rather than faith. Christianity is not about seeing and believing (lke Missouri - the show me state) but about faith (remember that sola from your Protestant Sunday School?
[it’s close but not quite all of it] ) So let’s change that maybe to an “is” and trust that where Jesus is there too is Mary as we know that Jesus is Emanuel - God with us. So in the simple extension that means Mary is also still with us - but not in a visible form that all can see at this current time.Hallelujah Sister!CFLJames:
Don’t sweat it CentralfLJames…a couple of Hail Marys and you’re good aren’t you?
(oops - that’s not idolatry is is?
)So I see you finally really do understand and acknowledge just how amazing and awesome God’s Grace really is and are starting to catch-on to the realization that Grace is still Grace no matter if it comes to us straight from God or through the subordinate mediation of one of His saints or angels. After-all if God gives a gift of Grace to somone then it is theirs and He is trusting them to use that precious Grace wisely. If somone is given a gift then they are at liberty to use and apportion it to others if it benefits them and accomplishes God’s will. Yes?
Some would foolishly make-out God as an “Indian Giver” who gives gifts with “strings attached” so that one can not use the gifts He gives except for oneself. But that is not God’s nature - when God gives He really gives - He will not take back unless one abuses a gift to hurt oneself or tries to dishonor God by abusing the gift (example: Like naming and worshipping the bronze serpents as a god in 2 Kgs. 18:4 rather than using it as an faith-inspiring religious article of healing as originally intended in Num. 21:8–9) . But scripture of course puts all this nonsense to rest by telling us that all divine gifts are manifestations of God’s grace and are given to the members of The Body of Christ for the benefit of The Church as well as that person - each according to how The Spirit elects (e.g. 1 Cor. 12, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4). Mary is “full of Grace” and is a spiritual well of all the good gifts that God gives. God gave to Mary His precious grace just as He gave The World through Mary His Divine Son - more than a share of Grace - but God Himself!
When the Angel Gabriel said “Hail Mary, Full of Grace!” he was not only proclaiming a titular fact, and expressing awe that she was literally FULL to the brim of what a human soul could contain of God’s grace, but also revering Mary as one worthy of bestowing tremendous honor and reverence to. Imagine that - one of God’s highest Angels speaking to Mary in awe. It takes A LOT to impress an angel. Remember Satan fell from grace (pride) because he could not accept that God would be so generous to lower himself to become a lowly human since that would mean even the highest angels would then have to minister to lower-estate “gouache” human entities who were created FAR FAR below the estate of Angels - barely above animals in comparison .
You might take the angel’s example Leeann and repeat the angel’s words as a prayer - “Hail Full of Grace!!”. Mary will make you a new woman after her own pure heart and make you more presentable to Jesus and magnify your prayers (“My soul magnifies the Lord” – Luke 1:46). She is afterall your spiritual mother and she wants you to look your best before Father and make Him proud.
James
R
Roy5
Guest
VARIOUS KINDS OF PROTESTANTS
Code:
One of the problems with Protestantism, I presume, is that it comes in different flavors. A large number in the USA are sola scriptura types, many of whom come close to worshipping the Bible.
Now, they are split, too. For example, Quakers refuse to swear on the Bible because Jesus said "swear not" (Matt 5:34), so Quakers affirm rather than swear, 7th-Day Adventists believe the Bible teaches that the Sabbath is the 7th day, not the first. Baptists insist on believers' baptism by immersion because that's the example Christ seemed to give when he was baptized. Various denominations disapprove of hierarchy, citing scripture. And so it goes.
Millions of Protestants, especially in such mainstream denominations as the Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, UCC, Disciples of Christ, etc., are 'big tent' and their constituents easily may move from one denomination to another, They all welcome parishioners who differ among themselves. Their Bible classes may involve fiery yet amiable give-and-take about certain verses. What did Jesus mean when he said "resist not evil"? Did he advocate pacifism (as Mennonites, for example, believe)? These groups tolerate various points of view and parishioners of conflicting theologies - all the way from conservatism to deep skepticism - are welcome. Individuals may differ in their attitude toward Mary. While none probably would pray the "Hail Mary" some would insist that she was a perpetual virgin, some would not insist on that but believe in the virgin birth, while some would doubt the virgin birth. regarding it as a myth borrowed from the Greeks or others who had a variety of virgin goddesses.
The underlying assumption among many Protestants goes something like this: the earth is the Lord's and he commands our worship, but as for all the complex theological details, who knows? That is why we are called to live by faith. Part of the glory of God and this incredible universe is that they are beyond our understanding. So, let's allow for divergent views. John Wesley, for example, said something like this: "If you believe in God and seek to serve him, if you profess Christ and wish to follow him, let's join hands and walk together and not fight over matters which none of us fully understands." Elsewhere he summed it up this way: "Think and let think!" A good idea.
I have enormous respect for the outstanding work of he Catholic Church when it comes to such missions as feeding the poor and healing the sick. She has produced some wonderful saints. But I personally need the freedom to think and explore without the strictures of a closed doctrinal and ecclesiastical system. Some people are ready to be told what to believe. Fine. Not me. My commitment is to seeking truth as best I can, without condemning or trying to 'convert' others who are on the same mission. Frankly, I find that most Catholics I know well don't accept all Catholic doctrine but attend mass nonetheless for a variety of good reasons
As for Mary, she must have been a wonderful woman - of course - but too often she becomes the center for worship. This may not be Catholic dogma, but the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception (1854) and the Assumption (1950) come too close for comfort. I prefer to regard her as a young woman who had the enormous honor of being the mother of Jesus. That's enough of an honor for anyone and I certainly admire and respect her for that.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
You are contradicting yourself here - as well as making lots of assumptions.
You assert “we have no idea when Mary died” yet you then toss your personally loaded seer-dice to say “she probably did not live very long after Jesus died”. Then through some kind of logical alchemy come up the specious conclusion: “…it suggests that the early Christians did not think that her role as Jesus’ mother or her death was very important.”
**Wrong! **
If you are up on the early church father’s writing you will see from their later writings (St. Epiphanius in 377 AD) that Mary becomes extremely popular and highly revered - so much so that The Church had to balance two opposing heretical tensions (the Antidicomarianites who denied the perpetual virginity of Mary vs. the Collyridians - who thought divine worship should be given to her). Clearly these heresies did not develop overnight and had to have much earlier roots that escape the evidence of recorded history. It is more than safe to assume that few Christians ever though of Mary as unimportant nor did the Holy Spirit when Mary prophesied - “all generations will call me blessed”. “All” certainly is inclusive of her own generation - that is if you actually believe the words in the bible. Do you? No, it is only after the errors of the Reformation that take root 1500 years distant that we have people calling themselves Christian trying to reduce Mary to the satus of “ordinary woman”; refusing to call her blessed and then infected with rabid fundamentalism destroying statutes and paintings of God’s saints.
If we have “no idea” as you assert then you certainly can’t in the same breath say with any force of reason or with any credibility yourself that the gospel writers (not the apostles themselves) had anything to add to the original apostolic account that were SPOKEN by the apostles immediately after Christ’s death. As you say those don’t get put to parchment until 30 years after the accounts are spoken and witnessed. The gospel writers/scribes (not the apostles) were not interested in making the gospel into a history book of things that backfill what happened in the interval of time that elapsed since the apostle’s actual original verbal words were put to paper. We trust the NT scribes rarely added their own words to embellish what actually happened to bring events up to current history at the time they actually wrote oral accounts - except perhaps to clarify things.
We can certainly assume that many of Paul’s original words were actually often times written down in the very early years and read from when he spoke and taught (since he clearly references his “written letters” in his epistles - but some of those are lost to us). If Mary had died in the first few years after Jesus’ resurrection then Paul would certainly have mentioned it - but he does not. Nor do Paul’s own disciples and scribes who bring us the current manuscript copies of his original words and writings that come to us through the bible add anything because that is not what Paul actually said. The bible manuscripts are not back edited to make them current with history - that would be revisionism and not a thing an honorable scribe would do - certainly not a Christian one.
The other major assumption you make is that Mary ever died. The Catholic Church’s dogma on the Assumption does not discern nor proclaim one way or the other if Mary actually ever died before she was assumed into heaven. Catholics are free to form their own consciences here based on reason and insights. Actually There is tremendous theological thought on this matter and there is compelling theological reason to believe if Mary was sinless and without original sin as Catholics know her to be then it might have been unjust and arbitrary for God to have her die and make an unjust death a contradiction to her role as New Eve - where humanity is restored never to fall or die again.
But it is certainly just if God elected to give Mary the choice to die to co-join herself to Jesus’ suffering and set the example for the rest of The Church who are baptised in Christ’s death that we must also.All Catholic theologians agree, of course, that Mary was not subject to death as a penalty for sin (owing to her sinlessness). However, many Catholic theologians agree that God willed that “she die for higher reasons pertaining to her relationship with Christ and the part she was to play in the work of Redemption.” The reasons brought forth by those who maintain that Our Blessed Mother actually died may be reduced to the following two:
a) Conformity to Christ: The condition of the Mother should not be better than that of her divine Son.
b) Mary’s role of Coredeemer: Due to the teaching of the Second Council of Orange, many theologians who maintain that Mary died claim that she had a right to immortality but, like her Son, freely accepted death in order that she might coredeem the human race together with Him
There is an extremely interesting article here on the matter of Mary’s death here at Catholic Culture:
Mary’s Death and Bodily Assumption (by Lawrence P. Everett, C.Ss.R., S.T.D.)
I hesitate to mention my own views on the private revelations we have from the saints and religious that tell us that Mary did not age after attaining the fully matured age of 33 (consistent with no corrupting effects due to sin). I’ll let you decide for yourself on the matter:
Mystical City of God: Life of the Virgin Mother of God (manifested to Sister Mary of Jesus of Agreda, 1602-1666 - Imprimatur H. J. Alerding, Bishop of Fort Wayne. Rome City, Ind., Aug. 24, 1912.)
James
N
Napsack
Guest
I appreciate your post here and thank you for the time you put into the response here. I simply do not feel comfortable attributing titles to Mary as coredemptrix and comediatrix as do most anyone who is not Catholic. I think a “thank you” for her saying yes to God is appropriate and sufficient.
C
codebilly
Guest
Catholics should not be the least bit fearful of this question. To our protestant brothers and sisters on this thread, please consider the deep spiritual teaching of His Holiness John Paul II on this topic.
**Mary’s memories
**
*11. Mary lived with her eyes fixed on Christ, treasuring his every word: “She kept all these things, pondering them in her heart” (Lk 2:19; cf. 2:51). The memories of Jesus, impressed upon her heart, were always with her, leading her to reflect on the various moments of her life at her Son’s side. In a way those memories were to be the “rosary” which she recited uninterruptedly throughout her earthly life.
Even now, amid the joyful songs of the heavenly Jerusalem, the reasons for her thanksgiving and praise remain unchanged. They inspire her maternal concern for the pilgrim Church, in which she continues to relate her personal account of the Gospel. Mary constantly sets before the faithful the “mysteries” of her Son, with the desire that the contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary.*
Please see :
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html
Each and every person is seeking a Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ. You can certainly enter into a relationship with Jesus through the scriptures as our protestant brethren claim, but you can not experience the deep, tender, personal relationship of ecstatic loving exchange personally experienced by Mary when the fetal Savior was conceived in Her womb.
That tender exchange of love between Savior Jesus Christ, and Mary was given only to her, and only by her, can we catch, can we be immersed into this kind of deep personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
It is therefore, very profound that the Catholic Church teaches “to the Father, through Jesus, by Mary”
One can only hope to embrace the Divine Child Jesus in the manger by first approaching His Mother and seeking her permission.
One can only experience her sorrowful, yet ecstatic union in separation when she lost Him at the temple.
Yes, only Mary, and those closest to her, experience that total abandonment of self, and are so completely lost in love of Jesus, that they can obliviously follow Him to the foot of the Cross, and see Him as He Is, the childlike source of all compassion, even delivering Himself to the most fallen.
The cult of Mary is to contact her memories, and enter into her contemplative gaze, … to enter into her personal relationship with Jesus as our own.
Only through Mary can be found the most intimate personal relationship with Jesus. No other person existed past, present and future, who it was ordained by God the Father, to have such a relationship.
**Mary’s memories
**
*11. Mary lived with her eyes fixed on Christ, treasuring his every word: “She kept all these things, pondering them in her heart” (Lk 2:19; cf. 2:51). The memories of Jesus, impressed upon her heart, were always with her, leading her to reflect on the various moments of her life at her Son’s side. In a way those memories were to be the “rosary” which she recited uninterruptedly throughout her earthly life.
Even now, amid the joyful songs of the heavenly Jerusalem, the reasons for her thanksgiving and praise remain unchanged. They inspire her maternal concern for the pilgrim Church, in which she continues to relate her personal account of the Gospel. Mary constantly sets before the faithful the “mysteries” of her Son, with the desire that the contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary.*
Please see :
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html
Each and every person is seeking a Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ. You can certainly enter into a relationship with Jesus through the scriptures as our protestant brethren claim, but you can not experience the deep, tender, personal relationship of ecstatic loving exchange personally experienced by Mary when the fetal Savior was conceived in Her womb.
That tender exchange of love between Savior Jesus Christ, and Mary was given only to her, and only by her, can we catch, can we be immersed into this kind of deep personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
It is therefore, very profound that the Catholic Church teaches “to the Father, through Jesus, by Mary”
One can only hope to embrace the Divine Child Jesus in the manger by first approaching His Mother and seeking her permission.
One can only experience her sorrowful, yet ecstatic union in separation when she lost Him at the temple.
Yes, only Mary, and those closest to her, experience that total abandonment of self, and are so completely lost in love of Jesus, that they can obliviously follow Him to the foot of the Cross, and see Him as He Is, the childlike source of all compassion, even delivering Himself to the most fallen.
The cult of Mary is to contact her memories, and enter into her contemplative gaze, … to enter into her personal relationship with Jesus as our own.
Only through Mary can be found the most intimate personal relationship with Jesus. No other person existed past, present and future, who it was ordained by God the Father, to have such a relationship.
C
codebilly
Guest
Mary’s perfect yes is not the end, but the beginning. Please see my previous post regarding JP II’s teaching Marian devotion (rosary). It is an extremely important topic for Catholics.
L
Leeann
Guest
YOO - HOO!! ADRIFT…
Isn’t this where someone usually posts something like " I’m terribly sorry, that was interesting, however it IS “off topic” and should be taken to another thread"…
(…with regards to CentralfLJames’ last, long, long,lonnnnnng
… post…or does that only happen when another poster…just as an example…let’s say a Non-Catholic
posts??? )
Isn’t this where someone usually posts something like " I’m terribly sorry, that was interesting, however it IS “off topic” and should be taken to another thread"…
(…with regards to CentralfLJames’ last, long, long,lonnnnnng
… post…or does that only happen when another poster…just as an example…let’s say a Non-Catholicposts??? )
C
codebilly
Guest
His Holiness John Paul II’s “ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE” is directly on topic. Please check it out. (link above in my post)YOO - HOO!! ADRIFT…
Isn’t this where someone usually posts something like " I’m terribly sorry, that was interesting, however it IS “off topic” and should be taken to another thread"…
(…with regards to CentralfLJames’ last, long, long,lonnnnnng
posts??? )
S
Soutane
Guest
That would be Eamon de Valera himself.My Faith has been strained through the filter of the green Isle and it would appear that there are more than a few orangemen here attacking the True Faith.
Interesting assessment on uneducated peoples.I have traveled extensively through the rural parts of the U.S.A. and her cities and have found the levels of poverty,illiteracy and lack of education shocking.As I’ve said before people who live in GIGANTIC glass houses should not throw stones.This is not a slight against Americans as we have similar problems here.
I just love how some here can so cavalierly assess a country and/or its people so blithely.What hubris.
Interesting assessment on uneducated peoples.I have traveled extensively through the rural parts of the U.S.A. and her cities and have found the levels of poverty,illiteracy and lack of education shocking.As I’ve said before people who live in GIGANTIC glass houses should not throw stones.This is not a slight against Americans as we have similar problems here.
I just love how some here can so cavalierly assess a country and/or its people so blithely.What hubris.
- Status