To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[Soutane]

YOO - HOO!! ADRIFT…

Isn’t this where someone usually posts something like " I’m terribly sorry, that was interesting, however it IS “off topic” and should be taken to another thread"…

(…with regards to CentralfLJames’ last, long, long,lonnnnnng … post…or does that only happen when another poster…just as an example…let’s say a Non-Catholic
posts??? )

I question your presence here.All you seem to do is taunt and look for the most obscure aspects of what YOU deem Catholicism to be.I agree with another poster who has described your posts as vile.

 

[Soutane]

I think 1234 is right. I have seen it numerous times. Let’s not get into this baiting game here where you try and explain away the obvious. I have seen many Hispanics kneel before a statue of Mary praying and asking her to do divine things for them. Fact. Call it what you wish but that’s blatant Mary worship and clear idolotry.

In other words,“Don’t you dare try to defend yourself from my ignorant bigoted attacks as I KNOW that you worship Mary as a goddess and nothing you can say,nothing you can do,no proof that you can provide me will change my mind.”

You wouldn’t get far in any debating class with your pathetic arguementation.

We’ve told you we do not worship Mary.You continue to insist we do.We’re liars or you are deliberately bearing false witness against us.Calumny is a deadly sin.Repent now.Please.

 

[Leeann]

His Holiness John Paul II’s “ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE” is directly on topic. Please check it out. (link above in my post)

Thank you Code billy!

 

[CentralFLJames]

Mary’s perfect yes is not the end, but the beginning. Please see my previous post regarding JP II’s teaching Marian devotion (rosary). It is an extremely important topic for Catholics.

Great insight codebilly. Thanks. It’s certainly not “finished” as Protestant ministers are teaching their congregations. That nonsensical jingoism is what is coming out of the divinity schools who sell pre-canned lecture series to ministers to be regurgitated to their congregations.

Catholics know that the triumph on the cross (with Mary at its foot) is only “the beginning” of God’s new goodwill toward man and restoration of a fallen humanity. Catholics know there is much more depth and dimensionality to God’s Word than what might immediately be discernible as written between the margins on simple 2 dimensional paper.

What was “finished” on the cross, among other things, was the completion of the passover ritual that Christ had not finished in the upper room. Jesus drank the ritual 4th Seder cup of bitter wine from a sponge extended at the end of the hyssop branch then said “It is finished” and died (Psalm 51:7 Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow). But death is not the finish - it is only the end of the old estrangement of humanity from God and the beginning of the new divine relationship in the rising! The alpha begins anew at the resurrection (Rev 21:5 Behold, I am making all things new.") and humanity is given a new commandment, “come follow me”, as Jesus opens the door again to God’s kingdom. God the Father and Jesus are one and Mary is closest to Jesus. In a certain sense then no one can get to God without also encountering and walking with Mary on their way to the Promised Land. Mary IS NO ORDINARY WOMAN!

The pattern of narrow vision that leaves Protestants to see Mary only as an ordinary woman leaves them to miss the profound role Mary plays as new Eve. It’s very very clear from scripture that Mary is the spiritual mother of a new divine-human race of God’s children prototyped on Christ and her own perfect and pure faith in The Lord. She is most worthy of our veneration - “honor thy father and mother”.

As a Catholic I have in the past not appreciated the depth of Mary’s role - but the Holy Spirit is waking me up to the awe that God is working in His Church and progressively revealing to me personally that Mary has a HUGE HUGE role to play still in the final triumph of Christ & His Church. This does not in anyway diminish Christ’s role it just adds incredible joy and expectation of what is to come as God uses Mary as an example of what honors and grace He is willing to give to those who love Him and are obedient to Him.

*1 Cor. 2:9 “Eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” *

James

 

[Napsack]

Mary’s perfect yes is not the end, but the beginning. Please see my previous post regarding JP II’s teaching Marian devotion (rosary). It is an extremely important topic for Catholics.

Thanks, but I’m not Catholic. As far as perfect goes, Jesus was the only perfect human being. I have no desire to be devoted to Mary. I have every desire to be devoted to Jesus (directly).

 

[Napsack]

Great insight codebilly. Thanks. It’s certainly not “finished” as Protestant ministers are teaching their congregations. That nonsensical jingoism is what is coming out of the divinity schools who sell pre-canned lecture series to ministers to be regurgitated to their congregations.

Catholics know that the triumph on the cross (with Mary at its foot) is only “the beginning” of God’s new goodwill toward man and restoration of a fallen humanity. Catholics know there is much more depth and dimensionality to God’s Word than what might immediately be discernible as written between the margins on simple 2 dimensional paper.

What was “finished” on the cross, among other things, was the completion of the passover ritual that Christ had not finished in the upper room. Jesus drank the ritual 4th Seder cup of bitter wine from a sponge extended at the end of the hyssop branch then said “It is finished” and died (Psalm 51:7 Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow). But death is not the finish - it is only the end of the old estrangement of humanity from God and the beginning of the new divine relationship in the rising! The alpha begins anew at the resurrection (Rev 21:5 Behold, I am making all things new.") and humanity is given a new commandment, “come follow me”, as Jesus opens the door again to God’s kingdom. God the Father and Jesus are one and Mary is closest to Jesus. In a certain sense then no one can get to God without also encountering and walking with Mary on their way to the Promised Land. Mary IS NO ORDINARY WOMAN!

The pattern of narrow vision that leaves Protestants to see Mary only as an ordinary woman leaves them to miss the profound role Mary plays as new Eve. It’s very very clear from scripture that Mary is the spiritual mother of a new divine-human race of God’s children prototyped on Christ and her own perfect and pure faith in The Lord. She is most worthy of our veneration - “honor thy father and mother”.

As a Catholic I have in the past not appreciated the depth of Mary’s role - but the Holy Spirit is waking me up to the awe that God is working in His Church and progressively revealing to me personally that Mary has a HUGE HUGE role to play still in the final triumph of Christ & His Church. This does not in anyway diminish Christ’s role it just adds incredible joy and expectation of what is to come as God uses Mary as an example of what honors and grace He is willing to give to those who love Him and are obedient to Him.

*1 Cor. 2:9 “Eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” *

James

There seems to be much more talk here about Mary than there is about Jesus. This seems to be a common theme amongst many Catholic conversations.

 

[ron77nyc]

Then why were a group of misguided nuns in Canada excommunicated for doing so.Please do not muddy the water.

You know darned well that the above quotes are so esoteric and open to personal interpretation as to be less than compelling.Neither gentleman was infallible but obviously both were given to hyperbole and neither spoke FOR the Church.

Bartolo Longo is a saint of the Church who lived in Italy (1841-1926) His prayers are quoted frequently by Pope Benedict. What do you think of this prayer?

communio.stblogs.org/2008/10/our-lady-of-pompeii.html

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

O August Queen of Victories, O Sovereign of Heaven and Earth, at whose name the heavens rejoice and the abyss trembles, O glorious Queen of the Rosary, we your devoted children, assembled in your Temple of Pompeii, on this solemn day, pour out the affection of our heart and with filial confidence express our miseries to You.

From the Throne of clemency, where You are seated as Queen, turn, O Mary, your merciful gaze on us, on our families, on Italy, on Europe, on the world. Have compassion on the sorrows and cares which embitter our lives. See, O Mother, how many dangers of body and soul, how many calamities and afflictions press upon us.

O Mother, implore for us the mercy of your divine Son and conquer with clemency the heart of sinners. They are our brothers and your children who cause the heart of our sweet Jesus to bleed and who sadden your most sensitive Heart. Show all what you are, the Queen of Peace and of Pardon.

 

[Soutane]

Thanks, but I’m not Catholic. As far as perfect goes, Jesus was the only perfect human being. I have no desire to be devoted to Mary. I have every desire to be devoted to Jesus (directly).

Jesus was hardly just a perfect Human Being.He is God Himself in hypostatic unity with His humanity.Comparing Mary to Christ is comparing apples to oranges,but it’s a mistake that some Protestants seem to make or at least it’s what they think Catholics do.Let me assure you we do not.

In this thread sometimes I feel like I’m talking to a wall.

 

[Soutane]

Bartolo Longo is a saint of the Church who lived in Italy (1841-1926) His prayers are quoted frequently by Pope Benedict. What do you think of this prayer?

communio.stblogs.org/2008/10/our-lady-of-pompeii.html

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

O August Queen of Victories, O Sovereign of Heaven and Earth, at whose name the heavens rejoice and the abyss trembles, O glorious Queen of the Rosary, we your devoted children, assembled in your Temple of Pompeii, on this solemn day, pour out the affection of our heart and with filial confidence express our miseries to You.

From the Throne of clemency, where You are seated as Queen, turn, O Mary, your merciful gaze on us, on our families, on Italy, on Europe, on the world. Have compassion on the sorrows and cares which embitter our lives. See, O Mother, how many dangers of body and soul, how many calamities and afflictions press upon us.

O Mother, implore for us the mercy of your divine Son and conquer with clemency the heart of sinners. They are our brothers and your children who cause the heart of our sweet Jesus to bleed and who sadden your most sensitive Heart. Show all what you are, the Queen of Peace and of Pardon.

I think that it is a sweet filial prayer that asks Mary to pray for us.We DO believe in the Communion of Saints you know,don’t you?
A little treacly and hyperbolic for my taste but heartfelt nonetheless.

 

[Soutane]

There seems to be much more talk here about Mary than there is about Jesus. This seems to be a common theme amongst many Catholic conversations.

Then WHY do YOU keep bringing her up?It’s you guys,non-Catholic Christians who seem to be obsessed with her.

 

[CentralFLJames]

There seems to be much more talk here about Mary than there is about Jesus. This seems to be a common theme amongst many Catholic conversations.

How Ironic. Some of you Protestants seem to be the one’s who spend all YOUR energy and time devoted to challenging Marian dogma and spreading calumny about Marian worship. Why are you not asking us questions about Jesus? When you make just these sort of circuitous and contradictory statements you really make yourself into a hypocrite too in even raising the Marian topics in the first place. Do you not want us to answer the questions or are you just baiting us away from our time to worship Jesus?

So please explain rationally how Catholics talking about Mary in response to your own proclivity for attacking our veneration of her is any different in magnitude of who we talk about? Can’t you see how irrational your statement is if Protestants spend so much time attacking Marian dogmas and practises?

For the record, Catholics are centered on Jesus and have known him as our personal Lord and Savior from the day we were baptised. Good Catholics not only just talk about him we also give him authentic WORSHIP of him at least every Sunday in mass (some of us in daily in mass); and as well in daily prayer. We just also happen to talk to His mother and some of his saints too and have come to know that a personal relationship with Jesus also means we enter into the company of his closest friends and family. That is really knowing Christ. There is no such concept as a lone-ranger Christianity with just you and Jesus - you get the whole heavenly family or nothing at all.

So just why again should any of this cause you jealousy when it does not cause Jesus jealousy; that is unless you don’t really know Jesus?

James

 

[ron77nyc]

Then why were a group of misguided nuns in Canada excommunicated for doing so.Please do not muddy the water.

You know darned well that the above quotes are so esoteric and open to personal interpretation as to be less than compelling.Neither gentleman was infallible but obviously both were given to hyperbole and neither spoke FOR the Church.

Are you a Catholic?If you are then you know that superstition is CONDEMNED by the Church.

I once confronted a Catholic vendor about the presence of St Joseph house selling kits in his store and he stated that it was mostly non-Catholics and non-practising Catholics who bought them.He also stopped carrying them after I SHAMED him.

Take a look at this and shame them too.
catholicsupply.com/christmas/stjoe.html

I think that it is a sweet filial prayer that asks Mary to pray for us.We DO believe in the Communion of Saints you know,don’t you?
A little treacly and hyperbolic for my taste but heartfelt nonetheless.

I believe in the communion of saints but Mary is referred to as sovereign of heaven and earth in this prayer. Sovereign means supreme. Is that worship?

“O August Queen of Victories, O Sovereign of Heaven and Earth, at whose name the heavens rejoice and the abyss trembles, O glorious Queen of the Rosary, we your devoted children, assembled in your Temple of Pompeii, on this solemn day, pour out the affection of our heart and with filial confidence express our miseries to You.”

 

[Soutane]

Take a look at this and shame them too.
catholicsupply.com/christmas/stjoe.html

I believe in the communion of saints but Mary is referred to as sovereign of heaven and earth in this prayer. Sovereign means supreme. Is that worship?

“O August Queen of Victories, O Sovereign of Heaven and Earth, at whose name the heavens rejoice and the abyss trembles, O glorious Queen of the Rosary, we your devoted children, assembled in your Temple of Pompeii, on this solemn day, pour out the affection of our heart and with filial confidence express our miseries to You.”

Mary is the Queen of Heaven because her Son is the King.In no way is the title of sovereign in this instance indicating divinty,equivalence or superiority to Christ.As I explained and which you so scrupulously ignored the prayer is a beseeching of Mary’s prayer for us.Context,friend,context.

As a Catholic you KNOW that.Why are you creating mischief-you are giving comfort to those who despise your Faith.Are you really a Catholic or just another wolf in sheep’s clothing pretending to be Catholic?

 

[Soutane]

Your right!You got us-the Catholic Supply house of St Louis REALLY decides doctrine and dogma for the Holy Catholic Church.The secret’s out.Is that the best that you can come up with?Pathetic.

If you’re a Catholic,why don’t YOU shame them.Explain that it brings scandal to the Faith and that pursuit of mamon at expense of the Truth is idolatrous and that they are promoting superstition.As a CATHOLIC you also have this responsibilty,n’est-ce pas?

 

[ron77nyc]

Mary is the Queen of Heaven because her Son is the King.In no way is the title of sovereign in this instance indicating divinty,equivalence or superiority to Christ.As I explained and which you so scrupulously ignored the prayer is a beseeching of Mary’s prayer for us.Context,friend,context.

As a Catholic you KNOW that.Why are you creating mischief-you are giving comfort to those who despise your Faith.Are you really a Catholic or just another wolf in sheep’s clothing pretending to be Catholic?

I am no wolf in sheep’s clothing. I’m a Catholic who asks questions when I see contradictions. Look at the Litany of the Saints :
Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.
Christ, hear us.
Christ, graciously hear us.
God the Father of Heaven, have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world, have mercy on us. God the Holy Spirit, have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, one God, have mercy on us.
Holy Mary, pray for us.
Holy Mother of God, pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins, pray for us.

God can have mercy on us. Holy Mother can intercede for us. That is the official Church doctrine.

 

[ron77nyc]

Your right!You got us-the Catholic Supply house of St Louis REALLY decides doctrine and dogma for the Holy Catholic Church.The secret’s out.Is that the best that you can come up with?Pathetic.

If you’re a Catholic,why don’t YOU shame them.Explain that it brings scandal to the Faith and that pursuit of mamon at expense of the Truth is idolatrous and that they are promoting superstition.As a CATHOLIC you also have this responsibilty,n’est-ce pas?

Don’t avoid the issue. The Church at times gives a double message. They officially do not teach the worship of Mary but people have always done it. Why else would it be an issue?

 

[codebilly]

The pattern of narrow vision that leaves Protestants to see Mary only as an ordinary woman leaves them to miss the profound role Mary plays as new Eve. It’s very very clear from scripture that Mary is the spiritual mother of a new divine-human race of God’s children prototyped on Christ and her own perfect and pure faith in The Lord. She is most worthy of our veneration - “honor thy father and mother”.

As a Catholic I have in the past not appreciated the depth of Mary’s role - but the Holy Spirit is waking me up to the awe that God is working in His Church and progressively revealing to me personally that Mary has a HUGE HUGE role to play still in the final triumph of Christ & His Church. This does not in anyway diminish Christ’s role it just adds incredible joy and expectation of what is to come as God uses Mary as an example of what honors and grace He is willing to give to those who love Him and are obedient to Him.

*1 Cor. 2:9 “Eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” *

James

Thank you James. A prevalent theme among protestants is “personal relationship” with Jesus, but at what level and Jesus’ person be known?

What kind of personal relationship with Jesus is possible? In some sense, those that have a personal relationship with Jesus, have “one from afar” in comparison to Jesus’ companions mentioned in the Gospels.

Through the Mysteries of the Rosary, as Pope John Paul II explained in ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE, we contact Mary’s memories and enter into her contemplative gaze.

Hence, we can truly experience a closer relationship with Jesus by Mary.

In contemporary times, we can use the rosary as a means for to silence the noise of the world, and enter into Mary’s silent night in Bethlehem.

The rosary is the Catholic means to take “shelter of Mary” at any time, and join in the community of contemplatives witnessing the Divine Mysteries of Jesus Christ,.

The Rosary becomes a lifeline at times when one cannot experience the love of God directly, but by grace may get a glimpse of Mary’s great love for Jesus.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I believe in the communion of saints but Mary is referred to as sovereign of heaven and earth in this prayer. Sovereign means supreme. Is that worship?

I see your line of reasoning here. But also bear in mind that it is very easy to make the common mistake of anachronistically back projecting modern semantics into a word or phrase that the original author never intended. This will happen progressively more as information is being linked across cultures and times and modern society accelerates its own semantic drift to accommodate the high rate of information assimilation. It is prudent to first examine the character of the man who wrote that and discern that he was a good Christian who clearly would not be so foolish to ever elevate Mary above God nor live in a faith that was inconsistent with his own beliefs. He was Catholic and at no times in the Church’s history has The Church ever elevated Mary to a level of deity or equality with God.

The word “sovereign” can thus pertain to a supreme council or royal family that still has a supreme head - God.

I think we can take it as reasonble that the person who composed that prayer took the word “sovereign” in the human monarchical sense. There are sovereign Kings, Queens, Princes and Princesses sharing authority according to role each has and in accordance with the King’s grant. But only the King is head over all the royal court and his decision is final.

I would say that the person is simply recognizing that God has crowned Mary as Queen of Heaven and when God permits Queen Mary to speak or act she is to be listened to and obeyed with the same respect as if He had spoken. This is an authority thing more than anything. Assigning authority is not the same think as impossibility of assigning divinity or adding a new divine person to “The Trinity”.

In the Catholic Christology Mary is attached at Jesus’ side and we under them as their children. Jesus “Son of Man” is Himself hypostatically attached through His 2nd Person to The Godhead - The Trinity. Yes, clearly this is a very powerful and honored position indeed but it is still NOT divinity. It is the highest honor any created being can possibly ascend to in heaven. But a created soul no matter how pure is finite. It can can not contain God’s infinite spirit - a finite created soul would in a sense explode if it was even permitted to try to contain the infinite God.

Bottom Line:
Mary is sovereign in her authority but not in her created nature. That authority is cooperatively constrained to the extent of God’s Will.

Don’t worry - trust God. Nothing happens in heaven or on earth without God’s consent. Mary is your mother and when she speaks she can be as trusted to speak with God given authority. Most often Mary as Queen Mother speaks to encoruage, compel and warn and always defers to God’s Will.

James

 

[Soutane]

I am no wolf in sheep’s clothing. I’m a Catholic who asks questions when I see contradictions. Look at the Litany of the Saints :
Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.
Christ, hear us.
Christ, graciously hear us.
God the Father of Heaven, have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world, have mercy on us. God the Holy Spirit, have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, one God, have mercy on us.
Holy Mary, pray for us.
Holy Mother of God, pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins, pray for us.

God can have mercy on us. Holy Mother can intercede for us. That is the official Church doctrine.

And? Is this some kind of non-sequitor? I ask the Holy Mother to pray for me and intercede for me all the time.Just like she did at Cana.Mary,like you and me is an intercessor,only her Son is the Mediator.

 

[ron77nyc]

I see your line of reasoning here. But also bear in mind that it is very easy to make the common mistake of anachronistically back projecting modern semantics into a word or phrase that the original author never intended. …
Bottom Line:
Mary is sovereign in her authority but not in her created nature. That authority is cooperatively constrained to the extent of God’s Will.

Don’t worry - trust God. Nothing happens in heaven or on earth without God’s consent. Mary is your mother and when she speaks she can be as trusted to speak with God given authority. Most often Mary as Queen Mother speaks to encoruage, compel and warn and always defers to God’s Will.

James

Thank you. That’s a good enough explanation for me.