To set the Record straight Catholics do not worship Mary!

[Soutane]

Don’t avoid the issue. The Church at times gives a double message. They officially do not teach the worship of Mary but people have always done it. Why else would it be an issue?

In your fallible,obviously skewed,and quite laughable,opinion people have always done it.The Church in your fallible and obviously skewed opinion teaches a lie…
I disagree.Are you saying the Church unofficially teaches that Mary worship is ok?That is a calumnous,libelous lie and you should know that.I suggest some remedial reading,sport-the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Find out what YOUR Faith really teaches.

 

[codebilly]

Thanks, but I’m not Catholic. As far as perfect goes, Jesus was the only perfect human being. I have no desire to be devoted to Mary. I have every desire to be devoted to Jesus (directly).

We agree this is the foremost Christian desire. I am reasonably sure that your Christian path is founded on the need for having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

What kind of relationship do you have? One like Peter? Or maybe that of James? Is it equal to that of John’s, with love great enough to endure the road of sorrows and follow Jesus to the foot of the Cross?

Do you think it worthy to contemplate John’s great love for Jesus? What kind of loving relationship did he share with Jesus?

Is your personal relationship with Jesus brotherly? parental? friendship? or is it, as mentioned in Canticles (song of solomon) spousal? Are you in relationship as bride of God as was the author of Canticles?

Do long to leave this body daily (as St. Paul “I die daily”) , and St. Teresa the Little Flower, so that you can be eternally in the company of the Savior?

What depth of relationship do you wish to have of the savior?

Once you have been saved, does not your relationship change? That is, you no longer need a “Savior God” because He has fulfilled His mission to save you.

After being saved, do you wish Him to be Rabbi, with you as student so He may expound every hidden mystery of His Word?

Do you wish to be His friend, as Lazarus must have been, sharing everything.

Would you like to hold Him in His tenderest most endearing form of an Infant, and experience what Mary experiences, namely to be eternally lost in Him embrace and never to be separated from Him?

The only way, you can enter into this kind of relationship with Jesus is by the gift He gave John from the Cross, the gift of Mary.

Mary constantly sets before the faithful the “mysteries” of her Son, with the desire that the contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary. — see: ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html

 

[ron77nyc]

I’m not attacking the Church and feeding her enemies. Depending on where you live and how old you are you would be exposed to different customs. I remember seeing women dressed in black on thier knees beating their breasts at the altar and kissing the feet of a statue of the Blessed Virgin when I was a boy growing up in an Italian neighborhood in New York.

 

[ron77nyc]

In your fallible,obviously skewed,and quite laughable,opinion people have always done it.The Church in your fallible and obviously skewed opinion teaches a lie…

Does not teach lies but allows them to linger on.

I disagree.Are you saying the Church unofficially teaches that Mary worship is ok?That is a calumnous,libelous lie and you should know that.I suggest some remedial reading,sport-the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Find out what YOUR Faith really teaches.

 

[Soutane]

I’m not attacking the Church and feeding her enemies. Depending on where you live and how old you are you would be exposed to different customs. I remember seeing women dressed in black on thier knees beating their breasts at the altar and kissing the feet of a statue of the Blessed Virgin when I was a boy growing up in an Italian neighborhood in New York.

Good for them!!!We still have little old Italian ladies who beat their breast at the altar during consecration(as do I) and lovingly touch the statue of Our Lady Of Mount Carmel(as do I)
Strangely enough it is these devout women who attend mass EACH day.
How dare you question their devotion.You are quite the parveneu aren’t you?Who made you the master and arbiter of worship and devotional etiqette?
Get over yourself.Or do you only indulge in mangia-cake devotion and worship?How elitist.You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[codebilly]

I’m not attacking the Church and feeding her enemies. Depending on where you live and how old you are you would be exposed to different customs. I remember seeing women dressed in black on thier knees beating their breasts at the altar and kissing the feet of a statue of the Blessed Virgin when I was a boy growing up in an Italian neighborhood in New York.

read this

ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html

and my previous posts … then you will likely understand kissing the feet of Blessed Mother

 

[Leeann]

Thank you James. A prevalent theme among protestants is “personal relationship” with Jesus, but at what level and Jesus’ person be known?

What kind of personal relationship with Jesus is possible?
The kind that Jesus Himself prays for, in John 17…not only for the disciples but US…ALL of us who are true and faithful believers… John 17:

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (…that’s ALL Christians…)

21 that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

In some sense, those that have a personal relationship with Jesus, have “one from afar” in comparison to Jesus’ companions mentioned in the Gospels.

Through the Mysteries of the Rosary, as Pope John Paul II explained in ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE, we contact Mary’s memories and enter into her contemplative gaze.

Hence, we can truly experience a closer relationship with Jesus by Mary.

In contemporary times, we can use the rosary as a means for to silence the noise of the world, and enter into Mary’s silent night in Bethlehem.

The rosary is the Catholic means to take “shelter of Mary” at any time, and join in the community of contemplatives witnessing the Divine Mysteries of Jesus Christ,.

The Rosary becomes a lifeline at times when one cannot experience the love of God directly, but by grace may get a glimpse of Mary’s great love for Jesus.

The is what a “personal relationship” with Jesus negates - those times “when one cannot experience the love of God directly” - by HIS grace His love is in us, as we are in Him and we don’t need look to elsewhere for a “lifeline” (rosary) or to anyone else to get a “glimpse” of their love for Him…it is by His grace that we can look to Him.

 

[Soutane]

Does not teach lies but allows them to linger on.

SEZ YOU.

 

[Soutane]

As would MY Mother and all six of her devout sisters.And as I DO.

 

[ron77nyc]

Good for them!!!We still have little old Italian ladies who beat their breast at the altar during consecration(as do I) and lovingly touch the statue of Our Lady Of Mount Carmel(as do I)
Strangely enough it is these devout women who attend mass EACH day.
How dare you question their devotion.You are quite the parveneu aren’t you?Who made you the master and arbiter of worship and devotional etiqette?
Get over yourself.Or do you only indulge in mangia-cake devotion and worship?How elitist.You should be ashamed of yourself.

I’m deeply ashamed. Tell that little old lady I’m sorry. :imsorry:

 

[Soutane]

I’m deeply ashamed. Tell that little old lady I’m sorry. :imsorry:

Are you sincere?If you are,I am impressed by your humility which is to be admired…

 

[Soutane]

When I kiss the picture that I carry of my child in my wallet,am I committing idolatry?When I kiss Christ’s feet at the beginning and conclusion of my daily rosaries am I committing idolatry?When I tell my fiance that I worship her,am I sinning?

 

[ron77nyc]

Are you sincere?If you are,I am impressed by your humility.

I’m sincere and a bit sarcastic at the same time. I know the hearts of those people. You can trust them with your little children if you had to take your wife to the hospital. What I’m trying to say is venerate and worship are almost the same thing so there is opportunity for confusion among Catholics and non-Catholics.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And, with a nod to LeeAnn. . .

Having a relationship with the saints does not ‘take away’ our relationship with Jesus. It is not, never has been, a question of "either I ‘love the saints’ OR’ "I love Jesus’. I love both–the saints as my brothers and sisters in Christ, and Jesus AS Christ and Lord.

A relationship with the saints strengthens that relationship with Christ. And it is, of course, one of the reasons that Jesus made sure to give us TWO 'Great commandments", the first being to know, love, and serve God with one’s whole heart, mind, and strength, and the SECOND being ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself’.

Well, I look on the communion of saints as my neighbors (as Scripture tells me I should). . .and so I make sure to love them as myself. . .to ‘include’ them through asking them to join with me in prayer to God. I don’t attempt to dismiss them as ‘dead people’, as ‘unconscious’, as ‘insensate’, etc.

 

[Soutane]

I’m sincere and a bit sarcastic at the same time. I know the hearts of those people. You can trust them with your little children if you had to take your wife to the hospital. What I’m trying to say is venerate and worship are almost the same thing so there is opportunity for confusion among Catholics and non-Catholics.

Ron, only Christ knows their hearts,your heart,or mine.Not you.Do you not see how arrogant you sound?

This WHOLE thread has been about the PROFOUND differences between devotion and worship.They are NOT almost the same thing at all.Please speak with your parish priest as soon as possible to dispel any error or confusion you may have.I ask that you do this as a fellow Catholic as it is my duty to encourage you out of love to not persist in your error.You are causing scandal to us and to your Faith through your wilful insistance in something that is patently untrue.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t know how to make this strong enough (especially since fonts over 2 and bolding have offended people before and made them think I was either ‘losing it’ or ‘looking for attention’). . .

But I’ll try.

The main problem here is not ‘if’ Catholics worship Mary (because even the most cursory study of Catholic teaching shows that this is not a teaching).

No, the main problem is that some ‘holier-than-thou’ persons are offended by Catholic acknowledgement of Mary. Their own worship is marked by a closed-minded and ever-narrowing focus which they have made into their own ‘image’ or idol of God, and they are (deep down) shamed and outraged to see other people giving God a much deeper worship than they.

Catholic worship of God is, in fact, so much deeper and richer than these ‘attackers’ (and I am careful to say here that I do not mean every Protestant or even most Protestants. I refer only to those ‘zealots’ who show very plainly that they are the ones offended, and who seek to justify their petty offense by putting themselves into God’s place and claiming HE is offended). . .and thus, even the respect which Catholics give to other people–their brothers and sisters in Christ, the saints, though falling far short of worship, is still much richer and deeper and finer than these few,pursed-lipped and bitterly critical ‘mind readers’. These people can’t bear to think that anybody could offer GOD more ‘worship’ than Catholics give the saints. . .because they themselves are incapable of such depth of worship, though they pride themselves on their own perfections and their own righteousness and claim that they ‘alone’ are showing true and perfect worship.

It’s jealousy, pure and simple. And so, in order to ‘prove’ their superiority, they carry on these same tired old charges, over and over, desperately trying to shore up their ‘crown’ of perfection and righteousness. In many ways, I pity them, for the more they focus on how ‘great’ they are, the less they become. . .

 

[codebilly]

The is what a “personal relationship” with Jesus negates - those times “when one cannot experience the love of God directly” - by HIS grace His love is in us, as we are in Him and we don’t need look to elsewhere for a “lifeline” (rosary) or to anyone else to get a “glimpse” of their love for Him…it is by His grace that we can look to Him.

If you don’t want to embrace the Infant Jesus in your arms and experience the loving exchange between Him and Mary, that is your free will.

But if you want a personal relationship with the Christ Child, then understand first Mary. The visions of St. Francis of Assisi, the desert fathers, St. Anthony, St. Teresa, are but a few of the many Marian devotees, that enter into DIRECT personal relationship with Jesus in this way.

Also, your response does not consider “My God My God, why hast thou forsaken me”.

Jesus, in this passage is exclaiming an “ecstatic union in separation”, wherein He is expressing the deepest kind of love. That is, the Love that cannot stand a single moment of separation from God.

Read St. Teresa the Little Flower to understand this kind of love. It means you are so in love with God you ask Him at every moment of every day to take you to heaven … right now.

That is perfect love for Jesus.

 

[Soutane]

I don’t know how to make this strong enough (especially since fonts over 2 and bolding have offended people before and made them think I was either ‘losing it’ or ‘looking for attention’). . .

But I’ll try.

The main problem here is not ‘if’ Catholics worship Mary (because even the most cursory study of Catholic teaching shows that this is not a teaching).

No, the main problem is that some ‘holier-than-thou’ persons are offended by Catholic acknowledgement of Mary. Their own worship is marked by a closed-minded and ever-narrowing focus which they have made into their own ‘image’ or idol of God, and they are (deep down) shamed and outraged to see other people giving God a much deeper worship than they.

Catholic worship of God is, in fact, so much deeper and richer than these ‘attackers’ (and I am careful to say here that I do not mean every Protestant or even most Protestants. I refer only to those ‘zealots’ who show very plainly that they are the ones offended, and who seek to justify their petty offense by putting themselves into God’s place and claiming HE is offended). . .and thus, even the respect which Catholics give to other people–their brothers and sisters in Christ, the saints, though falling far short of worship, is still much richer and deeper and finer than these few,pursed-lipped and bitterly critical ‘mind readers’. These people can’t bear to think that anybody could offer GOD more ‘worship’ than Catholics give the saints. . .because they themselves are incapable of such depth of worship, though they pride themselves on their own perfections and their own righteousness and claim that they ‘alone’ are showing true and perfect worship.

It’s jealousy, pure and simple. And so, in order to ‘prove’ their superiority, they carry on these same tired old charges, over and over, desperately trying to shore up their ‘crown’ of perfection and righteousness. In many ways, I pity them, for the more they focus on how ‘great’ they are, the less they become. . .

They are revealing so much about themselves.I guess that I’ve gone beyond irritation or annoyance about their “misconceptions”,which I believe are quite deliberate and wilful and have gone into fullblown concern for the state of their souls due to the utilization of lies and halftruths for the sake of “winning” an arguement.Bearing false witness about one’s neighbour is the BREAKING of a commandment.Calumny is an odious despicable SIN.There are consequences to sin.You may succeed in annoying and vexing us,but what are you doing to your souls?

 

[codebilly]

It’s jealousy, pure and simple. And so, in order to ‘prove’ their superiority, they carry on these same tired old charges, over and over, desperately trying to shore up their ‘crown’ of perfection and righteousness. In many ways, I pity them, for the more they focus on how ‘great’ they are, the less they become. . .

Let’s pray a rosary for them

 

[Soutane]

Let’s pray a rosary for them

Codebilly,I can think of nothing more appropriate.I believe I’ll join you.