D
DLC
Guest
Mary can not pray for you for there is only ONE mediator between God and man the Man Christ Jesus.
- Status
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
You are limiting your understanding by a too narrow literalistic interpretation of scripture. What you don’t understand is that there is a valid concept in mediation called subordinate mediation. In heave we are all family and God wishes for his family to share in His glory and to also help those still on earth.
So while it is true that all mediation is given unto Jesus it is also true that since Jesus is Lord he may co-join the saints in what we call subordinate mediation.
In fact, God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer
Here is a convenient copy of a lot of exegesis on this matter from
this source: scripturecatholic.com/saints.html#saints-II
II. God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer
1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.
2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.
1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.
Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.
III. Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation
[continued]
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
[continued from prior]
III. Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation
New Testament
Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then so can we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.
Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus’ passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.
Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other’s prayers.
2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.
2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ’s mediation.
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another’s burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.
Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians’ earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.
Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.
Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.
Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn’t Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.
1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.
1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says “pray constantly.” If Jesus’ role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?
1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.
2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ’s mediation because Christ desires this.
2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.
1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.
2 Tim. 1:3 – Paul says “I remember you constantly in my prayers.”
Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon’s intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”
Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.
James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins. This is a powerful example of men forgiving sins and bringing a person to salvation with the sacrament of the sick.
[continued]
James
III. Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation
New Testament
Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then so can we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.
Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus’ passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.
Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other’s prayers.
2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.
2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ’s mediation.
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another’s burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.
Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians’ earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.
Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.
Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.
Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn’t Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.
1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.
1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says “pray constantly.” If Jesus’ role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?
1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.
2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ’s mediation because Christ desires this.
2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.
1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.
2 Tim. 1:3 – Paul says “I remember you constantly in my prayers.”
Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon’s intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.
Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”
Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.
James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins. This is a powerful example of men forgiving sins and bringing a person to salvation with the sacrament of the sick.
[continued]
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
[continued from prior]
James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.
James 5:17-18 - James refers to God’s response to Elijah’s fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.
1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.
1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.
3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius’ health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.
Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
Old Testament
Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham’s intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.
Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.
Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God’s response to Moses’ saintly intercession.
1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God’s holy habitation in heaven and were answered.
Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah’s prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.
Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.
Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.
Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.
Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.
Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah’s lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.
Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people’s ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.
Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.
Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.
Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.
Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
It’s all backed by scripture. Read it all and come back if you have any more question.
James
James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.
James 5:17-18 - James refers to God’s response to Elijah’s fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.
1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.
1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.
3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius’ health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.
Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
Old Testament
Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham’s intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.
Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.
Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God’s response to Moses’ saintly intercession.
1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God’s holy habitation in heaven and were answered.
Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah’s prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.
Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.
Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.
Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.
Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.
Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah’s lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.
Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people’s ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.
Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.
Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.
Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.
Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.
Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
It’s all backed by scripture. Read it all and come back if you have any more question.
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
What would be more laughable if it was not so pathetically sad Nap is that you can’t refute anything I say with anything more compelling than your own pithy one liners and unsubstantiated opinions; nor make good on your promise to ignore me. These are all signs of desperation and a man with no depth of conviction - a house build on sand rather than rock.
James
P
placido
Guest
Says the fallible UtSuShIml! But contrary to your fallible “nothing more”, the Bible says she is to be venerated for generations.
Yes!
There we go again - one Physical Jesus plus Spiritual Jesus.
- He is born of Mary
D
DLC
Guest
It is great to study the church fathers. Some believed in baptismal regeneration and others did not. We do not base our doctrine on what the church father believed or did not believe. We base our doctrine upon the Bible.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Then your profession of faith is essentially “in the bible only”. That is an irrational faith since it was the Church Father’s who brought us the bible and that is only available to us as a comprehensive work of The Catholic Church after about 400 years after the birth of Christ (ref. Council of Rome called by Pope Damascus I in 382 AD to declare the bible canon). Is it not ironic that the bible comes to us AFTER Constantine’s time (ref. Edict of Milan in 313 AD) - the time you Protestants claim the Catholic Church was corrupted??? Please explain how a pure bible, the basis of your entire faith, can come out of a corrupt church and how it is you can hold it as sacrosanct without contradicting everything you all say and believe? Catholic faith is passed down to us through The Church and our baptism therein.
It sure sounds to me like Protestants are either into bibliolatry (worship of the bible) or into lifting up irrationality to new levels of veneration.
James
P
pete_29
Guest
No you don’t or you would believe the Bible when it tells you that Jesus actually gave us His Body to eat and His Blood to drink, or when it tells you that Peter is the rock on which Christ built His Church. This is how I understand the Bible, and since these are teachings of the Catholic Church and no one else that I’m aware of, I have no reason to dispute any other Church teachings.
P
placido
Guest
The Bible was not written by God, it was God-breathed but written by men. And there is no mention of sola scriptura in the Bible.
You are trying to prove Jesus wrong again. He gave all the authority to the Church and failure to listen to the Church is failure to listen to Jesus.
I say Amen!
You mean, God who guided fallible men to write our beloved Scriptures infallibly, is unable to guide fallible men to “all truth”, “even to the end of the ages”?
Oh no, not that straw man again. We don’t believe in the Church instead of Christ because the Church is the Body of Christ.
P
placido
Guest
The Bible was not written by God, it was God-breathed but written by men. And there is no mention of sola scriptura in the Bible.
You are trying to prove Jesus wrong again. He gave all the authority to the Church and failure to listen to the Church is failure to listen to Jesus.
I say Amen!
You mean, God who guided fallible men to write our beloved Scriptures infallibly, is unable to guide fallible men to “all truth”, “even to the end of the ages”?
Oh no, not that straw man again. We don’t believe in the Church instead of Christ because the Church is the Body of Christ.
P
placido
Guest
To make it simple, I sometimes use the analogy of a driver’s license. Faith is like a driver’s license. To have a driver’s license is not enough. You still have to use your seat belt, drive on the right side (not wrong side) of the road, respect traffic lights, be sober, etc.
It is a satanic deceit to believe that one is saved by faith alone!
A
Always_For_Him
Guest
The Bible that the Catholic Church wrote for ALL Catholics, NT Scripture - the Bible - IS CATHOLIC TEACHINGS written down!!! The NT writings were NEVER meant to be separated from the people who wrote them. They have to be taught and understood in the CONTEXT in which they were written. Only Christ’s Church - the Catholic Church - has that context and the authority to teach what Scripture means.
When Luther took our Bible, made changes to it, and taught his personal interpretations/feelings as truth, it forever separated those who follow his errant teachings, ALL subsequent churches as a result of the Reformation, from the fullness of Christ’s Teachings and authority of Christ’s Church.
Generations later, you may not even realize that, you are following the teachings and traditions of man, your church, your personal interpretation of what NT Scripture means to you. You are following the errant, less than 500 year-old teachings of man, NOT the 2,000 year-old teachings of Christ’s Church - the Catholic Church.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
It is a satanic deceit to believe that one is saved by faith alone!
I wanted to highlight this - HOW TRUE!
If bible-Christians really believed in by faith alone in CHRIST (not the bible) they would open their bibles, close their eyes and let Jesus speak to him — through the mouth’s of His appointed ecclesial leaders on earth – The Apostolic Pope and Bishops of His Catholic Church.
James
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Paul is referring to works done apart from God’s grace, works done under the law simply for the sake of observing an obligation that we may erroneously believe should make God indebted to us. He is not condemning our good works done in grace that are faithful to the moral teachings our Lord Jesus Christ and necessary for our salvation. The Hindu, Muslim, or Buddhist who lays down his life for a friend out of love, not to make God indebted to him, although this thought would never enter his religious frame of mind, could just as well be saved as any baptized Christian who conforms himself by his acts to the image of Christ. Faith is not an intellectual apprehension of the merits of Christ’s Passion and Death nor a personal acceptance of Jesus as one’s Lord and Saviour.
Every human being who is ultimately saved by God’s mercy because of the works they have done in God’s grace, even without knowing it, since grace is an unmerited free gift, shall be purified by being purged of their acts which are judged unworthy of Christ and follow them into death before the day of judgment - provided they are sorry for ever having acted in a way unworthy of Christ, notwithstanding any acknowlegement of our Lord as Saviour and his redemptive merits. Please see Karl Rahner on what he has to say about the “annonymous Christian”. This esteemed Catholic theologian will help you grasp what Paul exactly means by faith in Jesus which must be behind our good works done in the unmerited free gift of grace.
According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that there is, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."
1 Corinthians 3, 10-15
I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. The sea gave up its dead. 'ALL THE DEAD were judged according to their deeds.
Revelation 20, 12, 13
Too many Protestants are like the unfaithful servants of the old Covenant. They believe that God is indebted to save them because of their claim that they have faith in the merits of Jesus Christ who took their sins upon himself and was punished in their stead. In other words, they believe that they are saved for having met an obligation, namely accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour now that His righteousness has been imputed on their account in place of the law. However, Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. To be saved we must conform our lives to his image. We must do what our Lord exemplified in keeping with the spirit of the law, that which is written in every person’s heart and kept in God’s favour. This is what faith in Jesus is all about: being faithful to his teachings - notwithstanding any intellectual affirmation. Our deeds measure the love we have for God and our neighbour. We’ll be judged according to the measure of the expression of our love.
What good is it my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2, 14-17
Anyway, justification is another topic. Start a new thread if you wish, but let’s end it here in keeping with the Forum rules.
PAX :harp:
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Bill_Pick
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its closed now
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Bill_Pick
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Its closed now
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Bill_Pick
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its closed now
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placido
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That is a nice way of side-tracking the issue at hand.
- Status