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NonCatholic
Guest
Hey maybe that would explain why the Mary of the Catholic Church has now reached co-meditrix status. Let’s see venerate versus worship…let’s play a “Bill Clinton”…LOL
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NonCatholic
Guest
Napsack, you are failing to distinguish the Mary of the Catholic Church from the Mary of the Bible; that is the real issue and difference. There is no way anyone can, with an honest face, extrapolate the Mary of the Church with the Mary of the Bible unless…
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adrift
Guest
This is truly an amazing post of ignorance. All Saints including Mary are venerated. You should find out what Catholics mean by Communion of Saints. I have posted, as others have, Scripture that hold May in high esteem. Go back through the thread you will find them. The phrase full of grace is not used in Eph.and I tried several versions.
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adrift
Guest
You are completely missing the point or maybe avoiding it. I agree that Trinity is in scripture but if you ask a Jehovah Witness they would deny it. That Jesus established a Church is undeniable in Scripture. How you miss penance I honestly do not understand:nope: “Who’s sins you forgive” etc. I could provide Scripture reference but this thread is about worship. It has gotten off track.
What is missing is a definition that all agree on. But I don’t think that those who say we worship Mary want to get into a definition because than they would have to give up their precious held bigotry.
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adrift
Guest
If that were true you wouldn’t be posting the nonsense that you have. No one has yet produced evidence that Catholic believe Mary to be God and that is the only way that worship can occur. So when a man kneels to ask for a woman to marry him it is not worship. When a person kneels with a bible in their hand they are not worshiping the book. In order to know worship, you must be able to look into a person’s mind and see if he believes that he is talking to God. Worship=belief in God.
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guanophore
Guest
This is very true. None of the persons written about in Scripture are confined to the words of the Holy Writings. They are people, and some of them have very little written about them in the NT. Depending upon the NT as a compendium of Christian history, faith, and practice is definitely a shortcoming.
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NonCatholic
Guest
Scenario 1)** Catholic prays "Mary please intercede to your Son on my behalf I am having surgery tomorrow
—> Mary prays:Son please grant mercy and Grace to Mr or Miss Catholic ---->>> THE SON replies ; okay
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Scenario 2) **Mr Protestant asks"Hey Bill pray for me; I have surgery tomorrow------------> Bill prays "Father, Who art in heaven …be with Bill and grant Him your comfort and healing…
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I hope you can see the difference between to two, they are not very similar. Mr. Protestant is not praying to Bill. But Mr/Miss Catholic is praying to Mary, a form of worship, asking the Son to intercede. This is a nonbiblical model for prayer.
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adrift
Guest
You see a difference? Well I do see one
Jesus listens to his mother but in you example there is no difference both are asking someone else rather than going straight to Jesus. Sorry your example fails miserably.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Sorry - your are not biblical - and that is because you don’t use a bible - you wrongly think a Protestant book is a bible. Your problem is Luther stripped out all the OT bible texts that he did not want you to see so he could dupe you into believing his false teachings and start a new man-made church. Therefor you need to see the full written word of God before you start calling somone non-biblical since you don’t know what a bible is. Go pick up a Catholic Bible that had all the books that The Church used for 1,000 years before Luther ripped out 7 books.
Here are explicit references to intercession to and from the heavenly beings.
Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19;
Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven
Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.
Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah’s prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.
Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.
Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel: "The LORD said to me: Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me, my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them away from me. "
**Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God. "O Lord Almighty, thou God of Israel, hear now the prayers of the dead Israelites, and of their children, which have sinned before thee, and not hearkened unto the voice of thee their God: for the which cause these plagues cleave unto us. "
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**Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably. **
**2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth. **
Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God’s children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor. Since all in Christ are “alive” this means we honor God anytime we honor those still alive in Him.
Phil. 3:17 - Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.
Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of “more” glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God’s goodness.
Gen. 19:1 - Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.
Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.
1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.
2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.
FURTHER KNEELING OR BOWING IS NOT IN ITSELF WORSHIP
Deut. 5:9 - God’s command, “you shall not bow down to them” means “do not worship them.” But not all bowing is worship. Here God’s command is connected to false worship.
Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.
Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.
Gen. 24:52 - Abraham’s servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.
Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.
Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.
1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.
1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.
2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.
1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.
1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.
2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.
More at: Tobit 12:16 , Judith 14:7, Psalm 138:2, Dan. 2:46, Dan. 8:17, 1 Macc. 4:40,55, 2 Macc. 10:4,26; 13:12 -
James
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placido
Guest
Scenario 1)** Catholic prays "Mary please intercede to your Son on my behalf I am having surgery tomorrow
—> Mary prays:Son please grant mercy and Grace to Mr or Miss Catholic ---->>> THE SON replies ; okay
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Scenario 2) Mr Protestant asks"Hey Bill pray for me; I have surgery tomorrow------------> Bill prays "Father, Who art in heaven …be with Bill and grant Him your comfort and healing…
First, “to pray” means to ask / to request, e.g. “pray be seated”.
Secondly, your two scenarios admit that to ask Mary to pray for you is possible, but is different from asking Bill Protestant to pray for you.
I tend to agree with you here because the prayer of the righteous avails much.
Whatever you call it, the fact is Mr. Protestant is asking someone else to pray for him - contrary to DLC’s “one mediator”:
DLC:
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Good_Fella
Guest
If you consult your dictionary you will find that the word “pray” is not defined as “worship”. Here are four meanings of “pray” in Webster’s: 1. To utter petition to God 2. To make a fervent request; plead 3. To beseech; implore 4. to make a devout and earnest request for. Mr. Protestant certainly isn’t worshipping Billy for not petitioning God directly, is he? Nor is Ms Catholic worshipping Mary by imploring the Mother of our Lord to intercede on her behalf before her Son who is God, one with the Father. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit form a single conscious entity. I’m afraid there is nothing unbiblical here unless our understanding of the nature of the Holy Trinity is false and that of the Mormons is true.
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“Everything that the Father has is mine.”*
John 16, 15
First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1,4
With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit. To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones and also for me, that speech may be given me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must.
Ephesians 6, 18-20
PAX :harp:
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pete_29
Guest
Actually they are the same. In both cases you are asking someone to ask Jesus to help you.
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placido
Guest
With regard to kneeling I think we need to take different cultures into consideration before equating any kind of kneeling with worship.
I am in Africa and here people, even Protestant leaders, kneel before their kings, queens, etc. If I take a picture and send it to NonCatholic and DLC they will say “see, they are worshiping a man instead of God”.
I am in Africa and here people, even Protestant leaders, kneel before their kings, queens, etc. If I take a picture and send it to NonCatholic and DLC they will say “see, they are worshiping a man instead of God”.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
A Protestant’s graven image is internal - in their mind’s eye where no one but they can see them worship their own narrow world view. And really, after one clears away all the fluff this is all just part of Protestant work’s based theology. The harder and harder they work to imagine they believe they are saved and someone else is not the more they believe they are really really saved and that makes them feel good all the more so. It’s a rather vicious circle that requires that someone be sacrificed and go to hell in their place. They all wear the mark of Cain on their brow and sweat by it. It’s part of their idiom and Protestant work ethic. 
James
James
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NonCatholic
Guest
I’ve seen ignorance in handling Scripture around here, but you may take the cake. I hope you will begin to read and study and beg God for understanding for the sake of your soul.You see a difference? Well I do see one
Jesus listens to his mother but in you example there is no difference both are asking someone else rather than going straight to Jesus. Sorry your example fails miserably.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Again NC - you are offering your own unsubstantiated opinion. Can you demonstrate that you are not ignorant and opinionated by making a convincing argument to back up your claims? What makes your private interpretation of scripture any more enlightened than Brother Bubba who is preaching down the road at Bubba’s Bible Church or the lawnboy’s?
You mentioned hope above. In the Protestant “system” does passive hope become prayer? Where does hope “go to” when you hope others will come to your same understanding? Is this self directed? Do you also hope you have it right or do you know infallibly that you have it all right?
Personally I think your hope lead you here to CAF so you could learn how to put hope into action and learn to pray the way God’s family prays - all together with the saints in heaven and with those in formation on earth.
James
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Napsack
Guest
I understand you loud and clear and my whole point is that the Mary of the Bible and the Mary of Catholic theology are two different entities. Mary is the Mother of our Lord and one of the most model Christians to ever live, but she is not divine. However, that does not sustain the titles of “Queen of Heaven” or “Our Holy Mother” as is found in Catholicism. The Scriptures and ancient traditions for that matter paint a much different picture of Mary as does the Catholic church.
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