To the global warming nay-sayers

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“Real” scientists? Yes, I have only payed attention to “real” scientists and they usually agree, unanimously, that the “politically correct” scientists are lying about the whole deal.

I’m sure that the scientists have already told you (and you are fully aware) that the earth’s volcanoes spout more carbon dioxide into the air in a single day than we could possibly do in a whole year.
There are many many sins, as we’ve been discussing. And slander is one of them.

I’m not accusing you, since you have made no mention of a specific climate scientist, accusing him of lying. But there are others who do slander individual climate scientists. And I heard some of those climate scientists are beginning to take people (high profile slanderers) to court about it.
 
There are many many sins, as we’ve been discussing. And slander is one of them.

I’m not accusing you, since you have made no mention of a specific climate scientist, accusing him of lying. But there are others who do slander individual climate scientists. And I heard some of those climate scientists are beginning to take people (high profile slanderers) to court about it.
Do not turn this discussion into an ad hominem attack. I consider it lying when a scientist advocates something that is not science.
 
I also wish the alarmists would jump off the bandwagon until the debate is stable.
Our GHG emissions and the initial warming that causes could set in motion positive feedbacks that take over and spiral the situation out of control, into an extreme extinction level event.

Melting ice/snow revealing darker oceans/land, aborbing more heat, causing more melting, etc. This is already beginning to happen.

Melting permafrost and ocean hydrates releasing methane (23 times more potent GHG than CO2), causing more warming, causing more melting. This is already beginning to happen.

Time is of essence to greatly reduce our GHG emissions, or we’ll be consigning our children and their progency to gross harms and death.
you are no longer burning fossil fuels, correct?
I mentioned earlier that we reduced our GHG emissions by over 60% below our 1990 levels (and we still have more to do to reduce). We had already made it a point to live within 1 to 2 miles of work for since 1971 (to reduce our use of a finite resource), so I’m not even counting that in this calculation.

It is important to understand that nearly every product (not just gasoline and coal/gas-powered electricity) involves GHG emissions – in its resource extraction, shipping, processing, manufacturing, shopping, and often in its disposal.

REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE are excellent places to start, becoming energy/resource efficient/conservative. Then alt energy, when feasible and affordable.

No good deed is too small in God’s eyes. Pope Francis even returns all the rubber bands from the newspapers he buys.

Follow the Little Way of Environmental Healing.

Mother Teresa said that she never would have gone out and helped over 35,000 dying people, if she had not gone out to that first dying man in the streets. She said it doesn’t matter how much or how little one does, as long as it is done out of love, bec our love makes it infinite.

Let Jesus multiply our tiny deeds done out of love, as he multiplied the fish and loaves.
 
Do not turn this discussion into an ad hominem attack. I consider it lying when a scientist advocates something that is not science.
If you have some beef with some scientist, take him to court then. Don’t just out-of-hand lob accusation of him lying, just because you don’t like what his studies reveal…that’s like killing the messenger because one doesn’t like the message.

If you are referring to some email leaks involving Mike Mann, then that fiasco has been well addressed and roundly debunked by him and other scientists, plus the fact that his studies are not even needed to establish that AGW is happening and is real; his studies started coming out in 1998, 3 years after AGW had been established, and 100+ years after the greenhouse effect was discovered, and industrial emissions had been projected to lead to increased warming.

There are 1000s of other studies before and since 1998, and the science is quite robust now.

If you are referring to the “trick” to “hide the decline,” that was referring to a “method” to splice together 2 data sets – the tree ring data with more recent instrument observations – and hide the decline in the less acturate tree ring proxy data,* overriding it with the more accurate instrumental data, which shows an overall increase in global temps. It was only for the purpose of creating a graph, and not at the heart of his study. There are many other types of proxy data which reveal the warming in the current decades, and there is paleoclimatology that give some suggested parameters for today’s warming…tho today’s warming is happening 100 times faster than warmings in the past, and there really is no good past analog for our situation.

Trying to attack a few individual scientists (or suggest 1000s of scientists are in some vast nefarious conspiracy) and lob ad hominens at them is NOT the way to do science.

Let the henchmen “scientists” of the denialist industry come up with some real science based on solid evidence and good theory that contradicts mainstream climate science; let them publish it in respected peer-reviewed science journals; and let the climate scientists address their points to see if they hold water or not.

So far no takers writing against AGW have been able to make their points stick in the scientific arena. And I’ve been following the science like a hawk for over 20 years.

*I have my own ideas about why the tree-ring data goes off track from the instrumental data in recent decades. I’ve been reading studies that show the more rapidly warming nights (another signal the warming is due to the enhanced GH effect and not other factors) is harmful to certain plants, like rice paddy. So that may also be harming the trees. To my knowledge there are no studies on this topic yet. See:

Welch, J., J. R. Vincent, M. Auffhammer, P. F. Moya, A. Dobermann, and D. Dawe. 2010. “Rice Yields in Tropical/Subtropical Asia Exhibit Large but Opposing Sensitivities to Minimum and Maximum Temperatures.” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 107(33): 14562-14567. pnas.org/content/107/33/14562.full.pdf+html
 
Our GHG emissions and the initial warming that causes could set in motion positive feedbacks that take over and spiral the situation out of control, into an extreme extinction level event.

Melting ice/snow revealing darker oceans/land, aborbing more heat, causing more melting, etc. This is already beginning to happen.

Melting permafrost and ocean hydrates releasing methane (23 times more potent GHG than CO2), causing more warming, causing more melting. This is already beginning to happen.

Time is of essence to greatly reduce our GHG emissions, or we’ll be consigning our children and their progency to gross harms and death.

I mentioned earlier that we reduced our GHG emissions by over 60% below our 1990 levels (and we still have more to do to reduce). We had already made it a point to live within 1 to 2 miles of work for since 1971 (to reduce our use of a finite resource), so I’m not even counting that in this calculation.

It is important to understand that nearly every product (not just gasoline and coal/gas-powered electricity) involves GHG emissions – in its resource extraction, shipping, processing, manufacturing, shopping, and often in its disposal.

REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE are excellent places to start, becoming energy/resource efficient/conservative. Then alt energy, when feasible and affordable…
I don’t want to get into a war of authorities, but you must know there is ample evidence that recycling is not cost effective and often (depending on what is recycled) uses more energy that it saves. but is something that people like, when they feel like they have to do something and that makes it politically desirable and untouchable.

re electric cars. you do know that coal/ natural gas, petroleum fired plants account for about 70% of the electricity in the US, right?

so I’m still waiting for an explanation of how naturally occurring cycles - some of which did lead to extinction events - are caused by humans. if you care to address this, try explaining the climate swing in the early 14th century that resulted in mass famines in Europe. then there are the cycles that are demonstrably not caused by humans that are magnitudes worse than this: ice ages, P–Tr extinction event (or any of the dozen major extinction events), or even change on a lesser degree, like the pluvial lake-marsh-playa cycle here in the southwest.

Watts Up With That
 
…re electric cars. you do know that coal/ natural gas, petroleum fired plants account for about 70% of the electricity in the US, right?..
It does make a difference where the car is being used. For instance, in some areas the electricity is not petrol-based. Still, even where the electricity is petrol-based, there are areas where the air pollution is such that it could be better to take the efficiency hit that might be involved with burning the petrol to generate electricity and then using the electricity to power a car because the car can’t be equipped to burn as cleanly as the power plant can. With recycling, it does depend on both what it is that you’re recycling and what the overall situation is with regards to waste pile-up. As you imply, though, it depends on the situation and what trade-offs are necessary.

The overall situation with what the Vatican is saying is not “here, here is the answer” but rather “here is a set of complex issues that morally require an intelligent response and a willingness to subordinate your desires to the common good. Maybe you won’t hit on the perfect answer if you try, but you almost certainly won’t hit on the perfect answer if you don’t.”
 
It does make a difference where the car is being used. For instance, in some areas the electricity is not petrol-based. Still, even where the electricity is petrol-based, there are areas where the air pollution is such that it could be better to take the efficiency hit that might be involved with burning the petrol to generate electricity and then using the electricity to power a car because the car can’t be equipped to burn as cleanly as the power plant can. With recycling, it does depend on both what it is that you’re recycling and what the overall situation is with regards to waste pile-up. As you imply, though, it depends on the situation and what trade-offs are necessary.

The overall situation with what the Vatican is saying is not “here, here is the answer” but rather “here is a set of complex issues that morally require an intelligent response and a willingness to subordinate your desires to the common good. Maybe you won’t hit on the perfect answer if you try, but you almost certainly won’t hit on the perfect answer if you don’t.”
the perfect answer is to wait until the issue is not politicized, driven by outside agendas and the science of climatology cleans up its act and has reached a consensus. in the mean time, because I’m still waiting for the Comin’ Ice Age that was promised back in the 1970s, I’m not too worried about predictions from Global Warmerists today.
 
Anthony Watts is a TV weatherman, not a climate scientist. I wouldn’t go to a barber for brain surgery.

RE Watts, see:
You can look up most of the debunked denialist industry talking points here: skepticalscience.com/

At the very least it is good to get the other side of their talking points, then use one’s own unbiased smarts to figure out which points hold the most weight.
I don’t want to get into a war of authorities, but you must know there is ample evidence that recycling is not cost effective and often (depending on what is recycled) uses more energy that it saves. but is something that people like, when they feel like they have to do something and that makes it politically desirable and untouchable.
re electric cars. you do know that coal/ natural gas, petroleum fired plants account for about 70% of the electricity in the US, right?
REDUCE is the first and most important principle…and part of this can be accomplished by buying things that last. Then REUSE, the 2nd most important principle.

RECYCLE comes in last of these three, and I agree it does cost us a bit in time, effort, and travel. And some things are not as worth it to recycle as others. Recycling glass, for instance, does not save much if any energy (I read somewhere it saves 5% energy, and eslewhere it loses 5% energy). However recycling aluminum saves from 85% to 95% of energy over mining bauxite (say, in the Amazon rainforest, harming the rainforest), then shipping and processing it. Other materials are somewhere between glass and aluminum.

RE electric cars, we drive ours on 100% wind-generated electricity (to be 45% solar-electricity when we install panels on our roof). However, I knew people in an EV conversion club up north, and their sources say the energy use and pollution if from fossil-fuel-generated electricity for EVs is about 2/3 that of an ICE car.

The really biggy is to REDUCE car driving by moving closer to work (next home buy), running multiple errands, turn off engine in drive-thrus, and “hypermile” (which also saves on breaks), buy a more efficient car (next car buy) – you can make sure it is efficient & less polluting by checking epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do;jsessionid=FCb9RSrFZphb8cDGpJpytdQSfbv0nhG1NcHV11TcvhblPxKgJ5hc!657080056, and safe by checking safercar.gov/Safety+Ratings.

One can also reduce energy use & pollution by buying more efficient appliances and caulking windows, etc.

There are 1000s of things to do that save $$ AND help reduce environmental harm – one can just do the things they can and that make sense and cents to them. And money saved from those measures could be plowed into measures that may cost a bit, if one is not financially strapped.
so I’m still waiting for an explanation of how naturally occurring cycles - some of which did lead to extinction events - are caused by humans. if you care to address this, try explaining the climate swing in the early 14th century that resulted in mass famines in Europe. then there are the cycles that are demonstrably not caused by humans that are magnitudes worse than this: ice ages, P–Tr extinction event (or any of the dozen major extinction events), or even change on a lesser degree, like the pluvial lake-marsh-playa cycle here in the southwest.
As mentioned several factors can cause warming, and several other factors can cause mass extinctions (aside from warming).

Just because there are these other causal factors, it does not follow that our human industrial GHG emissions could not possibly have such an impact.

It’s good to get some basics on climate change. Here is a place with links to start: realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/

Some info about logical fallacies can also help…esp red herrings, strawmen; it’s also good to bone up on “cherry-picking.”

And it is important to note that science requires high confidence (usually 95%) before making claims – scientists cannot be the boy who called wolf when there was no wolf; while the virtue of prudence requires that Christians strive to avoid serious harms well before we ever reach 95% confidence that some harms are on the way – we cannot afford to be the villagers who slept and got eaten by the wolf when there really was a wolf, and we should not put other people’s lives at risk, waiting until we are 95% or 99% confident harms are upon us, esp since tipping points could put us in irreversible harms, or very long lasting harms.

Again, prudence requires us, even if we have serious doubts, to at least do the things that have no net cost, save us money, and that we can afford. See the U.S. Bishops’ statement, “Global Climate Change: A Plea for Dialogue, Prudence, and the Common Good,” at usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/environment/global-climate-change-a-plea-for-dialogue-prudence-and-the-common-good.cfm

The bishops didn’t exhibit an extremely high level of information and knowledge about climate change in that 2001 statement (for instance, they did not know AGW had been happening since around the 70s, and had been already causing harms and deaths), but they did know enough about the requirements of prudence to call for us not to wait, but do the needful now.
 
For starters, some of the drought victims in Africa over the past 40 years. Some of those who died in the European heatwave of 2003, some of the Hurricane Katrina and Sandy victims, and such victims of superstorms around the world. It is the last “intensity-umph” of these extreme weather events to which AGW is expected to have contributed that does the most damage, the part AGW would have increased.

I’ve harmed some of the famine victims around the world, when the famines were linked to droughts and other harms expected by scientists of being caused by AGW. I’ve destroyed property of victims of floods, hurricanes, etc. I’ve destroyed winter crops in N. Mexico, due to increased strongly negative arctic oscillations (which AGW is theorized to be causing) bringing killing freezes there. Victims of the increased floods in Pakistan and India that killed people and destroyed crops. Victims of the increasing wildfires around the world. The land loss from rising seas (causing evacuations from small island states). Harm and death from disease spread from vectors moving into new globally warmed territories.

My part may have been extremely small, but I was party to all these.

The list of harms from AGW I’ve contributed to goes on and on and on. And will be much much greater in the future from my lifetime emissions of CO2, a portion of which can stay in the atmosphere for 1000s of years – wiping out perhaps over 2/3 of humanity over the course of the next 1000 years, perhaps more, probably not less, perhaps even the complete annihilation of humanity.

By 2050 there will be severe harm to food crops around the world from AGW (including in the U.S.), while now such harms are mainly in poor countries, where people are most vulnerable to food loss.

Then there are concomitant pollution harms I’ve contributed to – ocean acidification, acid rain, local pollution (in resource extraction, shipping, processing, disposal of products).

I said I had never had an abortion, but when I drove my ICE car (over the past 50 years) I was causing pollution that causes abortions (miscarriages) and many other health harms (which I came to understand more fully only some 20 years ago). I was very happy to be able to convince my husband last year to get a Chevy Volt. Tho we still burned about 29 gallons of gasoline last year, that was only a fraction of what we used to burn, putting emissions into the atmosphere, contributing to harm and death thru local pollution, regional pollution, and global warming; not to mention the harms from extraction and processing, the cancer alleys. I was happy to go on 100% wind-generated electricity 11 years ago, and to be getting solar this summer (which is more for a financial investment than environmental action, since we are already on 100% wind).

I’m also happy all these things I’ve done to reduce my harms and killings save us quite a bit of money without lowering our living standards, as we have reduced our GHG emissions by 60%+ below our 1990 level. It has also taken financial stress off our marriage. But that’s not why I’ve done them – it was to reduce my harm and killing. The monetary savings are only the icing on the cake, a bonus I actually did not expect…I had thought 23 years ago when I started down this path I’d have to sacrifice to reduce my harms. But it was just the opposite – either immediate savings, no net cost, or return on investment in the short or long run and continued savings. Only a very few things we’ve done have cost more, and even then there may have been some benefits that outweighed the costs…like buying more expensive organic foods when available (synthetic fertilizers and pesticides doing environmental harms that harm people), which may have had some minor health or nutritional benefits for us.

All I can say is, thank you, Jesus, for being my redeemer and constant helper to help me find solutions, and for being my best friend.
Who was killing all those people with drought before global warming? If you really believe what you have written then how can you ever receive the Eucharist? Since I presume you still have some kind of “footprint” that kills others.

many times extreme environmentalists like yourself take the position that it would be wrong to bring more people into this world since with your logic, each child I bring in kills some village in Africa somewhere? I am wondering how sinful it has been of me to bring forth life to this world.
 
…I’m also happy all these things I’ve done to reduce my harms and killings save us quite a bit of money without lowering our living standards, as we have reduced our GHG emissions by 60%+ below our 1990 level…
Wait a minute. Does that even get you down to the worldwide average GHG emissions? It seems like that what you’re describing will get you down to about the average for Europeans. If you really think you’re actively killing people by your GHG emissions, why wouldn’t you just move somewhere and live at the same standard that everyone else there does? That would be living very cheap, too.

If it is true that “prudence requires us, even if we have serious doubts, to at least do the things that have no net cost, save us money, and that we can afford”…well? 🤷
 
Who was killing all those people with drought before global warming? If you really believe what you have written then how can you ever receive the Eucharist? Since I presume you still have some kind of “footprint” that kills others.
That’s why frequent confession is so important. I think God would at least be somewhat pleased a person is striving to reduce their harm.

It would help matters greatly, however, if everyone else did their part, and we actually were reversing course on AGW. I can only do my part, and only beseech others to do theirs. If they refuse, it is between them and God.
many times extreme environmentalists like yourself take the position that it would be wrong to bring more people into this world since with your logic, each child I bring in kills some village in Africa somewhere? I am wondering how sinful it has been of me to bring forth life to this world.
If at all a person may be concerned about their own sins, then their sin would not be bringing life into the world, but harming that life (doing things now that harm that life in the future and their future progeny), along with harming others’ lives.

It’s beyond my comprehension why people would risk their children’s well-being so blithely – out of fear of facing AGW and their responsibility re it, or some misguided ideology that blinds one to even considering the science for an instance – tho it does parallel the very high abortion rate we have (which is also incomprehensible in such a rich nation that could easily afford more children).

I tell environmentalists that it makes no sense to kill children in order to save the world for the children, and they listen (even tho it might make a bit of sense to encourage others to have abortions in order to make life better for one’s own children). But when I tell anti-environmentalists it makes even less sense and seems disingenuous to claim to be anti-abortion or “pro-life,” while refusing to accept or even consider for an instance the science that tells us we are harming the yet-to-be-born thru environmental harms (including harming their own children and progeny), they don’t listen or even do things that would save them money while reducing their harms to their progeny.
 
Wait a minute. Does that even get you down to the worldwide average GHG emissions? It seems like that what you’re describing will get you down to about the average for Europeans. If you really think you’re actively killing people by your GHG emissions, why wouldn’t you just move somewhere and live at the same standard that everyone else there does? That would be living very cheap, too.
My husband is head of my family (we are pre-women’s movement old-fashion types), and I feel I’ve done fairly well to convince him to do things that have gotten us to reduce by more than 60% – like living close to work for over 44 years; getting the SunFrost frig in 1991 (costs $2700, uses 1/10 the energy, and paid for itself in electricity and reduced food spoilage savings within 16 years); the Chevy Volt last year (which will pay for the difference between it and the car hubby wanted within 6.5 years and go on to save); and going solar next month; and all the smaller things we do. That puts us lower than the average European, tho a lot higher than poor people in poor nations.

We still have more to do, and I do find little ways to sacrifice on my own, without putting it on my husband.

I had to give up my cycle some years back due to health issues, tho I think of his uncle, who was a parish priest in a remote village in India, who never had a car or motorcycle, but would bicycle 5 miles into town for provisions, even up thru his 70s. I think of Pope Francis who uses public transportation and gives back the newspaper rubberbands for reuse. There are so many saintly people I don’t come even close to emulating, but their examples give me great inspiration to keep on this path.

And I pray for more help in reducing my harms, and God graciously answers.

Could I do much more? Of course. And I’ll be on the lookout to do more.
 
The Catholic Church learned, eventually and painfully, after Tycho Brahe and Galileo that modernity and intelligence are difficult with what they bring. Therefore, it is cautious now.

The evidence for environmental change due to technology is indisputable, at this point in time. FOX News editorials are not evidence.
 
The Catholic Church learned, eventually and painfully, after Tycho Brahe and Galileo that modernity and intelligence are difficult with what they bring. Therefore, it is cautious now.

The evidence for environmental change due to technology is indisputable, at this point in time. FOX News editorials are not evidence.
Just making this statement over and over and over does not make it true.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
 
Just making this statement over and over and over does not make it true.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
No one may question the faith, banish all heretics from the temples of the research facilities, and conferences where those entrusted with the holy truths gather. None may question the scriptures. Only the chosen may have the actual source data and methodologies revealed unto them.
 
My husband is head of my family (we are pre-women’s movement old-fashion types), and I feel I’ve done fairly well to convince him to do things that have gotten us to reduce by more than 60% – like living close to work for over 44 years; getting the SunFrost frig in 1991 (costs $2700, uses 1/10 the energy, and paid for itself in electricity and reduced food spoilage savings within 16 years); the Chevy Volt last year (which will pay for the difference between it and the car hubby wanted within 6.5 years and go on to save); and going solar next month; and all the smaller things we do. That puts us lower than the average European, tho a lot higher than poor people in poor nations.

We still have more to do, and I do find little ways to sacrifice on my own, without putting it on my husband.

I had to give up my cycle some years back due to health issues, tho I think of his uncle, who was a parish priest in a remote village in India, who never had a car or motorcycle, but would bicycle 5 miles into town for provisions, even up thru his 70s. I think of Pope Francis who uses public transportation and gives back the newspaper rubberbands for reuse. There are so many saintly people I don’t come even close to emulating, but their examples give me great inspiration to keep on this path.

And I pray for more help in reducing my harms, and God graciously answers.

Could I do much more? Of course. And I’ll be on the lookout to do more.
OK, but then tone down the rhetoric about killing people, because if living a Western life is actually the same as actively killing people, then “I don’t want to put this on my husband” does not cut it, does it? Either you are killing people and “could I do much more…of course” is a scandalous lukewarm cop-out and all the contrite breast-beating in the world won’t change that, or else the harm you are doing is something very different than selling defective brake cables or food that “might” be tainted.
 
No one may question the faith, banish all heretics from the temples of the research facilities, and conferences where those entrusted with the holy truths gather. None may question the scriptures. Only the chosen may have the actual source data and methodologies revealed unto them.
And some people are quite willing to risk the well-being and lives of their children, their later progeny and of others on their 100% confidence in fossil-fuel-funded and/or politically/ideologically driven “blog science” that AGW is definitely not happening, no possible way.

Even tho thousands of well-qualified, sincere, and concerned scientists (concerned about their own children and grandchildren and the life of the world) claim it IS happening based on their extensive education and knowledge, decades of toil and study, and enormously detailed and time-consuming, effort-filled studies. And even though the holy fathers accept the science (at least at the level of prudence) and call on us to mitigate AGW.

It’s like human life has absolutely no value whatsoever for those who completely and for all time reject actual climate science, saying instead that the scientists are corrupt, in a vast conspiracy, and stupid, making all sorts of game-changing mistakes, without even giving their science and studies a fleeting look-see.
 
And some people are quite willing to risk the well-being and lives of their children, their later progeny and of others on their 100% confidence in fossil-fuel-funded and/or politically/ideologically driven “blog science” that AGW is definitely not happening, no possible way.

Even tho thousands of well-qualified, sincere, and concerned scientists (concerned about their own children and grandchildren and the life of the world) claim it IS happening based on their extensive education and knowledge, decades of toil and study, and enormously detailed and time-consuming, effort-filled studies. And even though the holy fathers accept the science (at least at the level of prudence) and call on us to mitigate AGW.

It’s like human life has absolutely no value whatsoever for those who completely and for all time reject actual climate science, saying instead that the scientists are corrupt, in a vast conspiracy, and stupid, making all sorts of game-changing mistakes, without even giving their science and studies a fleeting look-see.
Funny how you haven’t linked a source to prove any of your fallacious claims for the duration of this thread.

If global warming isn’t happening, as I and certain others on this thread know, why should we be afraid of it?
 
No one may question the faith, banish all heretics from the temples of the research facilities, and conferences where those entrusted with the holy truths gather. None may question the scriptures. Only the chosen may have the actual source data and methodologies revealed unto them.
Reminds me of this scene…

I am the Great and Powerful Oz!!

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
 
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