To those who believe in a literal 6 day creation

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speciation or variation is micro evolution and perfectly obvious and acceptable but macro evolution cannot,does not and cannot and has not happened - twinc
Speciation and variation are not equivalent terms, since there is intra-specific variation and inter-specific variation. Hence, due to the ambiguity of your statement, I suspect you do not correctly understand the biological issues.

Speciation, properly speaking, refers to the instrumentality of species in generating new species, forms that are reproductively isolated from their ancestral type. That speciation occurs in this sense is an undeniable fact of science. It is the one very solid ground of Darwinian science and evolution theory generally.

Speciation is often included under macro-evolution, but that categorization is not unanimous.
 
Speciation and variation are not equivalent terms, since there is intra-specific variation and inter-specific variation. Hence, due to the ambiguity of your statement, I suspect you do not correctly understand the biological issues.

Speciation, properly speaking, refers to the instrumentality of species in generating new species, forms that are reproductively isolated from their ancestral type. That speciation occurs in this sense is an undeniable fact of science. It is the one very solid ground of Darwinian science and evolution theory generally.

Speciation is often included under macro-evolution, but that categorization is not unanimous.
macroevolution states from one kind to another which did not,does not and cannot happen,kinds are bovine,feline/lupine/canine etc.Some often avoid making clear the crucial distinction between Evolution and genetic variation,and simply claim all change as Evolution.This blatant misuse of terminology contributes greatly to confusion in the public perception of the Origins debate,as most people generally understand Evolution as meaning somehow a radical change of one creature into another of a higher type[Creation Rediscovered] - twinc
 
macroevolution states from one kind to another which did not,does not and cannot happen,kinds are bovine,feline/lupine/canine etc.Some often avoid making clear the crucial distinction between Evolution and genetic variation,and simply claim all change as Evolution.This blatant misuse of terminology contributes greatly to confusion in the public perception of the Origins debate,as most people generally understand Evolution as meaning somehow a radical change of one creature into another of a higher type[Creation Rediscovered] - twinc
Twinc, the notion of “kinds” is bogus. It is a meaningless term made up by YECs to get around the fact that species have descended from common ancestors. Common descent is accepted even by your pope, Twinc, unless you reject the authority of Pope Benedict XVI.
 
Twinc, the notion of “kinds” is bogus. It is a meaningless term made up by YECs to get around the fact that species have descended from common ancestors. Common descent is accepted even by your pope, Twinc, unless you reject the authority of Pope Benedict XVI.
Twinc, to clarify, Pope Benedict noted (as Cardinal Ratzinger), “Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.”

~ Communion and Stewardship, paragraph 63 (2002)"

StAnastasia
 
Twinc, the notion of “kinds” is bogus. It is a meaningless term made up by YECs to get around the fact that species have descended from common ancestors. Common descent is accepted even by your pope, Twinc, unless you reject the authority of Pope Benedict XVI.
be that as it may,depends what you or he mean by species,anyway he can be just as wrong as anybody else especially if wrongly advised - the notion of kinds is in no way bogus but many have still not grasped in spite of being repeated ten times in Genesis.1:21-25 especially sadly and alas by many who would like to be regarded as Christians - if common ancestry goes back to and starts at God as common designer then there is no problem or disagreement - twinc
 
be that as it may,depends what you or he mean by species,anyway he can be just as wrong as anybody else especially if wrongly advised - the notion of kinds is in no way bogus but many have still not grasped in spite of being repeated ten times in Genesis.1:21-25 especially sadly and alas by many who would like to be regarded as Christians - if common ancestry goes back to and starts at God as common designer then there is no problem or disagreement - twinc
As we learn more about DNA we will be able to more accurately classify organisms.

We will then see that the idea of common descent will be challenged.
 
be that as it may,depends what you or he mean by species,anyway he can be just as wrong as anybody else especially if wrongly advised - the notion of kinds is in no way bogus but many have still not grasped in spite of being repeated ten times in Genesis.1:21-25 especially sadly and alas by many who would like to be regarded as Christians - if common ancestry goes back to and starts at God as common designer then there is no problem or disagreement - twinc
Yes, “kinds” is a bogus term. So is the field of “baraminology.”

“Baraminology is a creationist system that classifies animals into groups called “created kinds” or “baramin” according to the account of creation in the book of Genesis and other parts of the Bible. It claims that kinds cannot interbreed, and have no evolutionary relationship to one another. Baraminology developed as a subfield of creation science in the 1990s among a group of creationists that included Walter ReMine and Kurt Wise. Like all of creation science, baraminology is pseudoscience and biological facts show that all life has common ancestry. The taxonomic system widely applied in biology is cladistics, which classifies species based on evolutionary history and emphasizes objective, quantitative analysis.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baraminology
 
As we learn more about DNA we will be able to more accurately classify organisms. We will then see that the idea of common descent will be challenged.
Sorry, Buffalo. DNA studies simply confirm ever more strongly the validity of “common descent.”
 
Yes, “kinds” is a bogus term. So is the field of “baraminology.”

“Baraminology is a creationist system that classifies animals into groups called “created kinds” or “baramin” according to the account of creation in the book of Genesis and other parts of the Bible. It claims that kinds cannot interbreed, and have no evolutionary relationship to one another. Baraminology developed as a subfield of creation science in the 1990s among a group of creationists that included Walter ReMine and Kurt Wise. Like all of creation science, baraminology is pseudoscience and biological facts show that all life has common ancestry. The taxonomic system widely applied in biology is cladistics, which classifies species based on evolutionary history and emphasizes objective, quantitative analysis.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baraminology
so I take it you do not wish to be associated with us as humankind or mankind - that would explain the rub - twinc
 
Sorry, Buffalo. DNA studies simply confirm ever more strongly the validity of “common descent.”
First of all let me state that I am not a creationist so that is not the basis for my comment.

The fact that DNA shows common descent does not prove the theory of evolution. And don’t forget it is still a theory not an immutable law. God could have taken his basic blueprint for life and made modifications to it to create different types of life. I don’t think that is what happened, but it cannot be disproved with any greater certainty than common descent can be proved. I think the only thing certain about the commonality of all life is that it came from God.

There is sometimes an arrogance in the scientific community (and I am not pointing fingers at anyone) wherein ideas are stated so forcefully that it can lead people to believe that some things are proven facts when they have not in fact been proven at all. I often see this when I watch shows like Nova, especially those dealing with astrophysics.

A similar effect can often be seen when those who are interpreting scientific studies confuse association with causation.

It is incumbant upon scientists to always be objective. However, that is difficult in the extreme not only due to human weaknesses in character and politics but due to the way science is funded.
 
The fact that DNA shows common descent does not prove the theory of evolution. And don’t forget it is still a theory not an immutable law.
Momor, remember that theories in science are never proven. Science disproves false hypotheses. Gravity has not been proven, but the theory is very well substantiated. Evolution has not been proven, but the theory is very well substantiated. Plate tectonics has not been proven, but the theory is very well substantiated.

The reason biology studies evolutionary processes, or geology studies plate tectonics, or physics studies gravity, is that these theories continue to be supported by the evidence. When the evidence contradicts as aspect of a theory, that aspect – or sometimes an entire theory – is revised. Evolution like other theories is subject to correction, revision, or even disconfirmation.

StAnastasia
 
Sorry, Buffalo. DNA studies simply confirm ever more strongly the validity of “common descent.”
Sounds like more evidence for IDvolution.

**Horizontal and vertical: The evolution of evolution
**

How could modern biology have gone so badly off track? According to Woese, it is a simple tale of scientific complacency. Evolutionary biology took its modern form in the early 20th century with the establishment of the genetic basis of inheritance: Mendel’s genetics combined with Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection. Biologists refer to this as the “modern synthesis”, and it has been the basis for all subsequent developments in molecular biology and genetics. Woese believes that along the way biologists were seduced by their own success into thinking they had found the final truth about all evolution. “Biology built up a facade of mathematics around the juxtaposition of Mendelian genetics with Darwinism,” he says. “And as a result it neglected to study the most important problem in science - the nature of the evolutionary process.”

In particular, he argues, nothing in the modern synthesis explains the most fundamental steps in early life: how evolution could have produced the genetic code and the basic genetic machinery used by all organisms, especially the enzymes and structures involved in translating genetic information into proteins. Most biologists, following Francis Crick, simply supposed that these were uninformative “accidents of history”. That was a big mistake, says Woese, who has made his academic reputation proving the point.

and

In 1991, geneticists David Haig and Lawrence Hurst at the University of Oxford went further, showing that the code’s level of error tolerance is truly remarkable. They studied the error tolerance of an enormous number of hypothetical genetic codes, all built from the same base pairs but with codons associated randomly with amino acids. They found that the actual code is around one in a million in terms of how good it is at error mitigation. “The actual genetic code,” says Goldenfeld, “stands out like a sore thumb as being the best possible.” That would seem to demand some evolutionary explanation. Yet, until now, no one has found one. The reason, say Woese and Goldenfeld, is that everyone has been thinking in terms of the wrong kind of evolution.

The results were very different when they allowed horizontal gene transfer between different organisms. Now, with advantageous genetic innovations able to flow horizontally across the entire system the code readily discovered the overall optimal structure and came to be universal among all organisms. “In some sense,” says Woese, “the genetic code is a fossil or perhaps an echo of the origin of life, just as the cosmic microwave background is a sort of echo of the big bang. And its form points to a process very different from today’s Darwinian evolution.” For the researchers the conclusion is inescapable: the genetic code must have arisen in an earlier evolutionary phase dominated by horizontal gene transfer. :hmmm:

No doubt there will be resistance in some quarters, (StA) yet many biologists recognise that there must be a change in thinking if evolution is finally to be understood in a deep way. “The microbial world holds the greatest biomass on Earth,” says Sapp, “but for most evolutionists it’s a case of ‘out of sight, out of mind’. They tend to focus on visible plants and animals.”

more…
 
Horizontal and vertical: The evolution of evolution

Interesting counter-points have been raised. And that’s exactly the way it should be in science. Hopefully, in 100 or 200 years our understanding of evolution will be very different, more accurate and more complete. But we are still talking biological evolution in some sense: the natural origin of species.

What are not realistic options are (1) a direct creation in six days**, **and (2) special creation of each species.
 
Horizontal and vertical: The evolution of evolution

Interesting counter-points have been raised. And that’s exactly the way it should be in science. Hopefully, in 100 or 200 years our understanding of evolution will be very different, more accurate and more complete. But we are still talking biological evolution in some sense: the natural origin of species.

What are not realistic options are (1) a direct creation in six days**, **and (2) special creation of each species.
Why not - what if God thought the different kinds and then programmed the DNA language?
 
Why not - what if God thought the different kinds and then programmed the DNA language?
God is not a computer programmer who writes DNA code. Perhaps you can explain what you are thinking without using analogies from technology.
 
macroevolution states from one kind to another which did not,does not and cannot happen,kinds are bovine,feline/lupine/canine etc.Some often avoid making clear the crucial distinction between Evolution and genetic variation,and simply claim all change as Evolution.This blatant misuse of terminology contributes greatly to confusion in the public perception of the Origins debate,as most people generally understand Evolution as meaning somehow a radical change of one creature into another of a higher type[Creation Rediscovered] - twinc
This is not much of an answer. You are confusing the issues yourself by your use of “kinds”. From your examples, bovine, etc. Your “kinds” correspond most closely to biological families. But to categorically deny that evolution does not take place at the family level is a huge assumption on your part.

First, it appears that you accept the fact of evolution at the species level, since you did not clearly deny that speciation occurs. So what are your grounds for denying evolution at the higher taxonomic levels?

I suspect your reasoning, like many creationists, is based on a blatant misrepresentation of “kinds” in Genesis 1:24-25. Hence, your denial of macro-evolution is a way of preserving a sectarian reading of Genesis. However, there is nothing in the Hebrew to even remotely suggest that what is translated as “kinds” corresponds to biological families.

What kind is the Archaeopteryx and the many other fossils generally recognized as intermediate types? What about “living fossils” that are intermediate types?

Your position appears to create many insoluble problems, while resolving nothing that I can see.
 
God is not a computer programmer who writes DNA code. Perhaps you can explain what you are thinking without using analogies from technology.
Languages and codes come from a mind. The DNA language came from God. He breathed it into the kinds.

All the diversity comes from the abilities of the language.
 
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