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buffalo
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Maybe - it depends on the definition. Is space empty?
But you may be interested in this paper on aether physics.
http://www.peswiki.com/images/0/0e/Aether_Unit2_250.jpg
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But you may be interested in this paper on aether physics.
http://www.peswiki.com/images/0/0e/Aether_Unit2_250.jpg
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buffalo
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PeterK
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itinerant1,
Thank you for the thorough explanation. Those ideas tie in nicely with the scriptural idea of ‘earthen vessels’.
PeterK
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PeterK
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That’s how the narrative follows.
But my answer to your question is no, Adam was not created before God rested. Because God is immutable. There is no change in the nature of God, so there is no state of God’s for which Adam can experience a ‘before’. God is the same. As you and I know, God’s ‘work’ and ‘rest’ are anthropomorphisms.
The theological certainty of God’s immutability then betrays a reading of Gen 1 very incompatible with the science we call theology. So do we go with the science or the literal sense of the scripture? Has this question turned up before?
PeterK
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StAnastasia
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Thanks, PeterK. I know the feeling of “let it end now; no playoffs, please.” But it can be exciting. My older son is a modest player on a team that beat eighty others to win the diocesan championship in 2008. My younger son is a brilliant three-point shooter at age nine (shooting ten point games), on a ham-fisted team that may never make it to the playoffs. But I love the CYO philosophy: (1) Create prayerful and ethical Christian young women and men first, (2) have good fun (3) learn the game, (4) win if possible.
The impasse in the science and religion discussion distresses me. As an academic theologian, my professional brief is to train people in careful thinking about their faith and about the world around them. It seems the powers in the world around us are lined up against this. I attended a Richard Dawkins talk at our local Research I university in 2005, in which RD attacked religious faith in puerile fashion, but went on to communicate lucidly about biology. On exiting the building I was behind two Christian students, one of whom said, “If that is what science is all about, I want to have nothing to do with it.” Another group ofstudents said that if the fundamentalism rejected by RD is what religion is all about, they wanted nothing to do with religion.
StAnastasia
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StAnastasia
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That would be news to my friends who are both scientists and Catholic priests.
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Stephen5
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This is a cut from my website on the creation issues … a bit long, but hopefully informative:
There is not a great deal of scriptural information addressing this subject, but there is enough to grasp an understanding that makes sense.
Not everything in the Bible can be proven by human intellect and observation and must be accepted on faith.
Genesis chapter 1:1 indicates that the Lord created the heavens and the earth in the beginning. This opening statement tells us that He exists and that He created the heavens and the earth in the beginning.
There is a summary of His creating and forming activities in Genesis that includes the beginning, reconditioning of the earth, creation of replacement life forms, and creation of humans in His own image. [Genesis 2:1-8]
This summary is a recap of how the heavens and the earth came into existence and the generations or phases of His actions.
The “day” (time) in which the Lord “created” is not just one day, but the times and generations of His creative and forming acts. [Genesis 2:4]
These included those in the beginning and those about 6,000 years ago. Humans were His final act of creation for this present generation.
He will renovate and create again after this present age of man’s rule of the earth comes to an end. [2Peter 3:10; Revelation 20, 21]
We are not told when the beginning of His creative acts took place. There is substantial evidence in scripture that satan and the fallen angels rebelled against Him sometime between the beginning of creation and Genesis 1:2.
We can only speculate as to what was going on during the time from the beginning and Genesis 1:2.
The Lord created the angels first and then the material universe and other life forms. We know this because all things were created by Him and the angels observed His creative acts. [Job 38:4-7]
There are significant references available to us in scripture and the physical observation of the material world regarding these issues which can enhance our understanding of Biblical truths about creation.
The earth is the only inhabitable planet in our solar system for life forms that we know of from recent observation. Environments for life support do not exist on any of the other planets.
We find that there is much evidence of death, decay, and destruction of very old life forms buried beneath the earth’s surface.
We can also observe an apparent long term decadent entropic decline of life forms from the fossil remains of these creatures and many others.
This decline was part of their life cycle and this is different than what one would expect of the Lord’s original creation. Something motivated Him to cause this process of entropy and death to operate in His universe.
There is also an apparent desire by the Lord to create new heavens and an earth in the future which will be eternally perfect. This change will involve a return to the conditions of His original and perfect creation. [Romans 8:18-22; Revelation 21]
There is not a great deal of scriptural information addressing this subject, but there is enough to grasp an understanding that makes sense.
Not everything in the Bible can be proven by human intellect and observation and must be accepted on faith.
Genesis chapter 1:1 indicates that the Lord created the heavens and the earth in the beginning. This opening statement tells us that He exists and that He created the heavens and the earth in the beginning.
There is a summary of His creating and forming activities in Genesis that includes the beginning, reconditioning of the earth, creation of replacement life forms, and creation of humans in His own image. [Genesis 2:1-8]
This summary is a recap of how the heavens and the earth came into existence and the generations or phases of His actions.
The “day” (time) in which the Lord “created” is not just one day, but the times and generations of His creative and forming acts. [Genesis 2:4]
These included those in the beginning and those about 6,000 years ago. Humans were His final act of creation for this present generation.
He will renovate and create again after this present age of man’s rule of the earth comes to an end. [2Peter 3:10; Revelation 20, 21]
We are not told when the beginning of His creative acts took place. There is substantial evidence in scripture that satan and the fallen angels rebelled against Him sometime between the beginning of creation and Genesis 1:2.
We can only speculate as to what was going on during the time from the beginning and Genesis 1:2.
The Lord created the angels first and then the material universe and other life forms. We know this because all things were created by Him and the angels observed His creative acts. [Job 38:4-7]
There are significant references available to us in scripture and the physical observation of the material world regarding these issues which can enhance our understanding of Biblical truths about creation.
The earth is the only inhabitable planet in our solar system for life forms that we know of from recent observation. Environments for life support do not exist on any of the other planets.
We find that there is much evidence of death, decay, and destruction of very old life forms buried beneath the earth’s surface.
We can also observe an apparent long term decadent entropic decline of life forms from the fossil remains of these creatures and many others.
This decline was part of their life cycle and this is different than what one would expect of the Lord’s original creation. Something motivated Him to cause this process of entropy and death to operate in His universe.
There is also an apparent desire by the Lord to create new heavens and an earth in the future which will be eternally perfect. This change will involve a return to the conditions of His original and perfect creation. [Romans 8:18-22; Revelation 21]
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Stephen5
Guest
Creation issues continued …
The original creation was balanced, stable, and perfected. For example we are told that satan was created perfect in every way. [Ezekiel 28:12-19]
One can then conclude from this that the rebellion of satan and one third of the angels resulted in the Lord’s judgment and subsequent decline of the original creation.
It does appear to us that the other planets and moons in our solar system had environments similar to the earth in the distant past.
If the earth is the same age as the others and all were created in the beginning before Genesis 1:2, then one could speculate that satan’s fall resulted in the Lord’s widespread judgment of the material universe.
This would bring us to Genesis 1:2 and the following reconditioning of the earth for the habitation of living life forms, with no similar adjustments to any of the other planets and moons.
Genesis 1:2 opens with an earth that is void of all living life forms and has experienced significant upheaval and destruction. One should ponder this and view the Lord’s actions from the perspective of being located on the earth.
We could speculate that the Lord’s initial phase of the judgment process was to freeze the earth and cover it with ice. This would explain the “ice age” that we have observed. All life forms on the earth were destroyed in the process.
A warming of the earth would then produce the water cover [waters below] and the water vapor [waters above] as described in Genesis. The earth is described as being desolated and totally covered with surface waters.
The space immediately above the waters is saturated with thick water vapors (dense clouds). There is no visibility, everything was in total darkness on the earth.
The sun, moon, earth’s solar system, and universe were present, but these could not be seen from the earth. They were created in the beginning long before Genesis 1:2 and were made visible again from the earth by the Lord’s reconditioning actions.
The time is about 6,000 years ago and He moved rapidly to prepare the desolated earth for the habitation of life forms including the initial introduction of humans of our kind. [Genesis 1:2]
His actions begin in Genesis 1:3. He dissipates enough of the cloud mass (waters above) above the surface waters so that a faint glow of light coming from the sun can be seen.
The statement “let there be light” is not a creative act, but the result of the dissipation process.
Light was created in the beginning when He created the heavens and the earth, but obscured by the conditions of judgment.
The dissipation process allowed for one to observe day and night because of the rotation of the earth and enough light from the sun.
He then separated the waters above from the waters below and formed the atmosphere between them. This was necessary for the support of the new life forms that were to come.
Next He caused the surface waters on the earth to recede to the extent that dry land appeared in various areas.
Natural vegetation seed that already existed in the earth began to grow and reproduce at an accelerated rate.
Further dissipation of the atmospheric cloud mass allowed for observation of the sun, moon, and stars from the earth. He made these to be lights appearing in the atmosphere by observation from the earth’s surface and for distinct purposes.
He created them in the beginning long before 6,000 years ago, but made them appear and function for the reconditioned earth.
Next He created new life forms to replace those destroyed by His former judgment of the earth. These were distinctly different creatures who multiply only in kind and in distinct habitations. They are very much like the ones living on the earth today.
Earlier life forms that existed prior to the Lord’s judgment of the earth were similar but also included creatures that He did not replace.
Evidence of these extinct life forms are found in the fossil discoveries today like large reptilian creatures.
The Lord’s final act associated with the reconditioning of the earth about 6,000 years ago was the creation of human kind. We are distinctly different from all of the other living creatures including the angelic beings.
The original creation was balanced, stable, and perfected. For example we are told that satan was created perfect in every way. [Ezekiel 28:12-19]
One can then conclude from this that the rebellion of satan and one third of the angels resulted in the Lord’s judgment and subsequent decline of the original creation.
It does appear to us that the other planets and moons in our solar system had environments similar to the earth in the distant past.
If the earth is the same age as the others and all were created in the beginning before Genesis 1:2, then one could speculate that satan’s fall resulted in the Lord’s widespread judgment of the material universe.
This would bring us to Genesis 1:2 and the following reconditioning of the earth for the habitation of living life forms, with no similar adjustments to any of the other planets and moons.
Genesis 1:2 opens with an earth that is void of all living life forms and has experienced significant upheaval and destruction. One should ponder this and view the Lord’s actions from the perspective of being located on the earth.
We could speculate that the Lord’s initial phase of the judgment process was to freeze the earth and cover it with ice. This would explain the “ice age” that we have observed. All life forms on the earth were destroyed in the process.
A warming of the earth would then produce the water cover [waters below] and the water vapor [waters above] as described in Genesis. The earth is described as being desolated and totally covered with surface waters.
The space immediately above the waters is saturated with thick water vapors (dense clouds). There is no visibility, everything was in total darkness on the earth.
The sun, moon, earth’s solar system, and universe were present, but these could not be seen from the earth. They were created in the beginning long before Genesis 1:2 and were made visible again from the earth by the Lord’s reconditioning actions.
The time is about 6,000 years ago and He moved rapidly to prepare the desolated earth for the habitation of life forms including the initial introduction of humans of our kind. [Genesis 1:2]
His actions begin in Genesis 1:3. He dissipates enough of the cloud mass (waters above) above the surface waters so that a faint glow of light coming from the sun can be seen.
The statement “let there be light” is not a creative act, but the result of the dissipation process.
Light was created in the beginning when He created the heavens and the earth, but obscured by the conditions of judgment.
The dissipation process allowed for one to observe day and night because of the rotation of the earth and enough light from the sun.
He then separated the waters above from the waters below and formed the atmosphere between them. This was necessary for the support of the new life forms that were to come.
Next He caused the surface waters on the earth to recede to the extent that dry land appeared in various areas.
Natural vegetation seed that already existed in the earth began to grow and reproduce at an accelerated rate.
Further dissipation of the atmospheric cloud mass allowed for observation of the sun, moon, and stars from the earth. He made these to be lights appearing in the atmosphere by observation from the earth’s surface and for distinct purposes.
He created them in the beginning long before 6,000 years ago, but made them appear and function for the reconditioned earth.
Next He created new life forms to replace those destroyed by His former judgment of the earth. These were distinctly different creatures who multiply only in kind and in distinct habitations. They are very much like the ones living on the earth today.
Earlier life forms that existed prior to the Lord’s judgment of the earth were similar but also included creatures that He did not replace.
Evidence of these extinct life forms are found in the fossil discoveries today like large reptilian creatures.
The Lord’s final act associated with the reconditioning of the earth about 6,000 years ago was the creation of human kind. We are distinctly different from all of the other living creatures including the angelic beings.
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buffalo
Guest
Article 2. Whether God rested on the seventh day from all His work?
Objection 1. It would seem that God did not rest on the seventh day from all His work. For it is said (John 5:17), “My Father worketh until now, and I work.” God, then, did not rest on the seventh day from all His work.
Objection 2. Further, rest is opposed to movement, or to labor, which movement causes. But, as God produced His work without movement and without labor, He cannot be said to have rested on the seventh day from His work.
Objection 3. Further, should it be said that God rested on the seventh day by causing man to rest; against this it may be argued that rest is set down in contradistinction to His work; now the words “God created” or “made” this thing or the other cannot be explained to mean that He made man create or make these things. Therefore the resting of God cannot be explained as His making man to rest.
On the contrary, It is said (Genesis 2:2): “God rested on the seventh day from all the work which He had done.”
I answer that, Rest is, properly speaking, opposed to movement, and consequently to the labor that arises from movement. But although movement, strictly speaking, is a quality of bodies, yet the word is applied also to spiritual things, and in a twofold sense. On the one hand, every operation may be called a movement, and thus the Divine goodness is said to move and go forth to its object, in communicating itself to that object, as Dionysius says (Div. Nom. ii). On the other hand, the desire that tends to an object outside itself, is said to move towards it. Hence rest is taken in two senses, in one sense meaning a cessation from work, in the other, the satisfying of desire. Now, in either sense God is said to have rested on the seventh day.
First, because He ceased from creating new creatures on that day, for, as said above (1, ad 3), He made nothing afterwards that had not existed previously, in some degree, in the first works; secondly, because He Himself had no need of the things that He had made, but was happy in the fruition of Himself. Hence, when all things were made He is not said to have rested “in” His works, as though needing them for His own happiness, but to have rested “from” them, as in fact resting in Himself, as He suffices for Himself and fulfils His own desire. And even though from all eternity He rested in Himself, yet the rest in Himself, which He took after He had finished His works, is that rest which belongs to the seventh day. And this, says Augustine, is the meaning of God’s resting from His works on that day (Gen. ad lit. iv).
Reply to Objection 1. God indeed “worketh until now” by preserving and providing for the creatures He has made, but not by the making of new ones.
Reply to Objection 2. Rest is here not opposed to labor or to movement, but to the production of new creatures, and to the desire tending to an external object.
Reply to Objection 3. Even as God rests in Himself alone and is happy in the enjoyment of Himself, so our own sole happiness lies in the enjoyment of God. Thus, also, He makes us find rest in Himself, both from His works and our own. It is not, then, unreasonable to say that God rested in giving rest to us. Still, this explanation must not be set down as the only one, and the other is the first and principal explanation.
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edwest2
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PeterK
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Unfortunately, one representation - RD’s science or RD’s depiction of religion - is projected as the totality of the field. The result being total rejection of the field based on one limited representation. Not a fair hearing either way and bridges of understanding are not being constructed. But you’ll fix that when they come to class.
If you are distressed, so are others. If you are aware of it, so are others. What better back drop for your keen intellect and personal witness of Christian charity to shine. I know with myself, for the most part, if I am a virtuous person it’s because there were examples of virtue lived before my eyes.
In the Genesis verses we have been discussing in this thread, the first three days involve separations. Entities are separated, never to be reconciled. Impasses of sorts have been made permanent. It’s all kind stark. The next three days bring something totally unexpected, new unforeseen life bursts forth and flourishes in these ‘impasse-able’ stark environments.
PeterK
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PeterK
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I’m sorry I just read Angelic Doctor as struggling with arguments all derived from a literal only reading of the text.
Was I created before God rested? Or am I merely a preservation?
[Note to self: all Buffalo’s questions are set ups to slam one with the Summa]
PeterK
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itinerant1
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Balderdash! The facts are the Hebrew pre-scientific cosmology inherited from the Babylonian included a solid firmament, waters above and below the firmament, floodgates in the sky to let in the water, a flat earth, a flat earth that was supported by massive pillars, waters under and all around the earth, and the supporting pillars themselves rested on nothing.
Any attempt at concordism with modern science constitutes a blatant denial of the literal sense of Scripture in numerous places, and a misuse of science. We also know from extra-biblical ancient near eastern texts how extensive the cosmology described above was throughout the ancient near east.
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itinerant1
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God has not created any new species or types *ex nihilo. *Only the individual rational soul is created repeatedly.
St. Thomas’ interpretation is consistent with and allows for St. Augustine’s theory that God created everything at once in their rationes seminales. There was no literal day by day creation.
As the opportunities arise in history, new forms emerge or evolve which had not appeared earlier on earth, but they were created in the beginning in their rationes seminales. Augustine’s view is sort of like a theological version of evolution.
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itinerant1
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This Nature article is misleading because it does not cite organizations that are representative of the scientific community. Consider the NAS; it is a select organization that attracts non-believers.
In short, you have presented a highly inaccurate view of the faith make-up of scientists, of which there are changes, of course, from decade to decade. The Nature article has been a favorite one for citation by Christians who harbor prejudices against science. These Christians aren’t interested in an accurate survey because the one in Nature suits their purposes.
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itinerant1
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Here is an informative article entitled, Creationists Live in Small Cosmic Bubble
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buffalo
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itinerant1
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I thought you would like that. Well, I’m outta here. Got’s to go to work.
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PeterK
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First, award a point to Buffalo. And thank him for the learning opportunity. That’s why I’m here. I am totally open to learning.
If I understand correctly, this enterprise known as existence has been known in its entirety by God for all eternity. God has remained the same God even as his plan unfolds in the time he created. A point is reached in this unfolding plan, by design to be sure, in which all the rationes seminales have been realized. Adam, or the human, represents one of these.
Can it be said that this idea of rationes seminales or that a point exists in the unfolding of natural history after which no knew forms or types are realized, can be deduced from natural observation or philosophical reason and does not necessarily rely upon or promote a literal reading Genesis 2.2-2.3?
Then, in para. 337 of the Catechism, the instruction that the “work” and “rest” are symbolic can be read as symbolically pointing to this rationes seminales idea.
This then brings up an interesting question regarding a literal reading of the 6-day creation narrative. What Catholic dogmas or doctrines require exclusively for their claims to be true a literal understanding of Gen 1-2.3 to be fact?
Many make reference, but do any fall with the absence of a literal interpretation? Any?
And if none, then what’s at stake?
Remember, I’m only referring to Gen 1.1 through 2.3, the 6-day creation narrative, not anything following Gen 2.4.
PeterK
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buffalo
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That is an excellent question - I am not sure that any dogmas are affected.
There are two issues - what has the Church understood and taught. The Greek Atomists wrote that the earth was very old and the Early Church Fathers rejected it way back when. There is no support in Scripture for long ages.
On the other hand evolutionists absolutely have to have long ages or they have to abandon materialism and the only other alternative is unpalatable to them.
Bottom-line - we all should want the truth,
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