To those who believe in a literal 6 day creation

[StAnastasia]

Hey don’t get in trouble with your boss! And I agree, I’m probably ‘seeing pictures in clouds’. But they’re nice pictures. Later, PeterK

Hey PeterK, my father (a retired theologian) just sent me this note, in response to your posting which I sent to him. In modified agreement with you, he says:

“Interesting. Possible trinitarian transition points, or phases, of evolutionary creation immediately pop to mind as big bang (the Father), from energy to atoms and all that follows though non-self-conscious life (the Son, or Word, who is the divine creative agency in standard theology), from self-conscious being to the loss or fulfillment of self absorption in spiritual union with the divine (the Holy Spirit). St. Augustine, you will recall, sees the analogy of the Trinity in the human mind. Some medieval theologians (I have forgotten who) divided history into the ages of the Father and the Son and the Spirit. However, these ideas seem rather far out.
Love,
Dad”

So you can see it’s a lively discussion. I would argue that as meaning-seeking beings, we are hard-wired by our evolutionary past to detect patterns. And since God created our evolutionary past, perhaps God did the symbolic triad pattern-detection hard wiring intentionally!

StAnastasia

 

[PeterK]

Hey PeterK, my father (a retired theologian) just sent me this note, in response to your posting which I sent to him. In modified agreement with you, he says:

“Interesting. Possible trinitarian transition points, or phases, of evolutionary creation immediately pop to mind as big bang (the Father), from energy to atoms and all that follows though non-self-conscious life (the Son, or Word, who is the divine creative agency in standard theology), from self-conscious being to the loss or fulfillment of self absorption in spiritual union with the divine (the Holy Spirit). St. Augustine, you will recall, sees the analogy of the Trinity in the human mind. Some medieval theologians (I have forgotten who) divided history into the ages of the Father and the Son and the Spirit. However, these ideas seem rather far out.
Love,
Dad”

So you can see it’s a lively discussion. I would argue that as meaning-seeking beings, we are hard-wired by our evolutionary past to detect patterns. And since God created our evolutionary past, perhaps God did the symbolic triad pattern-detection hard wiring intentionally!

StAnastasia

StAnastasia,
You have paid me no small tribute in sharing my thoughts with your Dad! I can only imagine your kitchen table conversations growing up. He must be very proud of you.

Certainly God has always planned to draw us close to himself.

Thanks again for the note.
It made my morning.

PeterK

 

[itinerant1]

First, award a point to Buffalo. And thank him for the learning opportunity. That’s why I’m here. I am totally open to learning.

If I understand correctly, this enterprise known as existence has been known in its entirety by God for all eternity. God has remained the same God even as his plan unfolds in the time he created. A point is reached in this unfolding plan, by design to be sure, in which all the rationes seminales have been realized. Adam, or the human, represents one of these.

It would be an over-extension of the theory to apply it to humans in an unqualified manner. With the origin of the first human there is a direct intervention by God in the creation of the spiritual soul, as there is with each subsequent human being conceived. St. Augustine was rather sparing with his theory, but I think the theory has rich potential for speculating beyond what Augustine himself did.

Can it be said that this idea of rationes seminales or that a point exists in the unfolding of natural history after which no knew forms or types are realized, can be deduced from natural observation or philosophical reason and does not necessarily rely upon or promote a literal reading Genesis 2.2-2.3?

If I understand your question correctly, there is no scientific, philosophical or theological reason to assert that no new forms will arise specifically because the natural processes of nature continue, i.e. evolution continues. And God originally endowed matter with everything it needs to fulfill His plan for creation. This point about the specificity of matter is where I differ from ID theorists.

Then, in para. 337 of the Catechism, the instruction that the “work” and “rest” are symbolic can be read as symbolically pointing to this rationes seminales idea.

I’ll address “work” and "rest in a separate post. For now, I will note that creation is not a once and for all action by God. Divine Providence governs creation, so in a certain way creation continues. I don’t mean to imply that God is continually creating things in nature ex nihilo. I will use analogy to illustrate my point. Think of creation as a musician playing a flute and creation is the music. As long as the flute player plays, there is music.

This then brings up an interesting question regarding a literal reading of the 6-day creation narrative. What Catholic dogmas or doctrines require exclusively for their claims to be true a literal understanding of Gen 1-2.3 to be fact?

Many make reference, but do any fall with the absence of a literal interpretation? Any?

And if none, then what’s at stake?

Remember, I’m only referring to Gen 1.1 through 2.3, the 6-day creation narrative, not anything following Gen 2.4.

PeterK

I am unaware of any literal interpretations of Genesis by Catholics (that are made within the spirit of the Bible) that compromise Church doctrines. Otherwise, Buffalo would be considered a flaming heretic and we would have to call Tomás de Torquemada back from the dead to take care of some unfinished business.

 

[itinerant1]

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=675&pictureid=5403

This is the picture of world we find portrayed throughout the Old Testament. The drawing is more defined and more oval-shaped than what the Hebrews actually envisioned, but at least it conveys the general idea fairly accurately.

Concordists are forever jumping through hoops and engaging in mental gymnastics to turn this ancient, pre-scientific cosmology into a modern view of the cosmos.

 

[James_Least]

The basic reason the Genesis Account of Origins is allegorized, fantasized, and any of the other "izes’ is because it disagrees with the wishful thinking(?) of those who seem to be followers of one: Charles Darwin–revised to neo-Darwinism. It probably goes back to Nimrod–maybe even to Cain, who tried to change the blood offering to an herb offering.

It matters not how much one spins this issue, they all cannot be right. The Scripture only is reliable.

If one cannot depend on the veracity of the Book of Genesis, how can one depend on the veracity of the Gospel? Maybe it is all allegory.

“Let God be found True and every man a liar”

Peace,

James Least

 

[itinerant1]

1. In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
2. Now the earth was a formless void, there was darkness over the deep, with a divine wind sweeping over the waters.
   These verses tell us how time began, just as Revelations tells us how time ends. The Hebrews did not have a words for “universe”, so the phrase “heaven and earth” represent everything that is created. God is outside and above the cosmos. The negative phrases “formless void” and “darkness over the deep” are images that attempt to express creation from nothing.

God is portrayed using the analogy of a workman, but one who creates by His word. That God “works” for six days and “rests” on the seventh is meant to teach the Divine sanction of the seventh day as a day of rest or sabbath.

1. God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.
   The first thing a workman or craftsman needs to be able to do his work is light. Thus, there is no cosmic or scientific mystery behind the particular order of light being created before the creation of the sun, etc.
2. God saw that light was good, and God divided light from darkness.
3. God called light ‘day’, and darkness he called ‘night’. Evening came and morning came: the first day.
   Everything that God creates is good. There is no evil principle in creation or competing gods of light and darkness as in Babylonian and Persian religions.
4. God said, ‘Let there be a vault through the middle of the waters to divide the waters in two.’ And so it was.
5. God made the vault, and it divided the waters under the vault from the waters above the vault.
6. God called the vault ‘heaven’. Evening came and morning came: the second day.
   For the ancient Semites vault of the sky, or the firmament was a solid dome holding the upper waters in their place. Confer the previous post with the illustration. Rainwater was let through via apertures or floodgates.
7. God said, ‘Let the waters under heaven come together into a single mass, and let dry land appear.’ And so it was.
8. God called the dry land ‘earth’ and the mass of waters ‘seas’, and God saw that it was good.
9. God said, ‘Let the earth produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants, and fruit trees on earth, bearing fruit with their seed inside, each corresponding to its own species.’ And so it was.
10. The earth produced vegetation: the various kinds of seed-bearing plants and the fruit trees with seed inside, each corresponding to its own species. God saw that it was good.
11. Evening came and morning came: the third day.
    Earth or nature has procreative powers ("Let the earth produce vegetation) it has received from God. This is a counter-statement to those pagan religions that attribute procreation to nature itself without having received that power from God.
12. God said, 'Let there be lights in the vault of heaven to divide day from night, and let them indicate festivals, days and years.
13. Let them be lights in the vault of heaven to shine on the earth.’ And so it was.
    16.God made the two great lights: the greater light to govern the day, the smaller light to govern the night, and the stars.
14. God set them in the vault of heaven to shine on the earth,
15. to govern the day and the night and to divide light from darkness. God saw that it was good.
16. Evening came and morning came: the fourth day.
    This is an affirmation the God created the celestial bodies for man’s benefit. The sun and moon are not gods to be worshiped, as they are in neighboring pagan religions.
    …
17. God made wild animals in their own species, and cattle in theirs, and every creature that crawls along the earth in its own species. God saw that it was good.
18. God said, ‘Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground.’
19. God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.
20. God blessed them, saying to them, ‘Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven and all the living creatures that move on earth.’
21. God also said, 'Look, to you I give all the seed-bearing plants everywhere on the surface of the earth, and all the trees with seed-bearing fruit; this will be your food.
    Man is the only creature created in the image of God. This fact sets him apart and above the rest of the animal kingdom, over which he is given dominion.
    …
22. Thus heaven and earth were completed with all their array.
23. On the seventh day God had completed the work he had been doing. He rested on the seventh day after all the work he had been doing.
24. God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on that day he rested after all his work of creating.
    The seventh day rest is intended as a Divine instruction to keep holy the sabbath and do no work because God blessed that day and rested from creating.

 

[grannymh]

If one cannot depend on the veracity of the Book of Genesis, how can one depend on the veracity of the Gospel? Maybe it is all allegory.

Peace,

James Least

Personally, I depend on the practices of Catholicism as a guide. It makes life simpler as one approaches death.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is meant for eternal life.

 

[twinc]

1. In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
2. Now the earth was a formless void, there was darkness over the deep, with a divine wind sweeping over the waters.
   These verses tell us how time began, just as Revelations tells us how time ends. The Hebrews did not have a words for “universe”, so the phrase “heaven and earth” represent everything that is created. God is outside and above the cosmos. The negative phrases “formless void” and “darkness over the deep” are images that attempt to express creation from nothing.

God is portrayed using the analogy of a workman, but one who creates by His word. That God “works” for six days and “rests” on the seventh is meant to teach the Divine sanction of the seventh day as a day of rest or sabbath.

1. God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light.
   The first thing a workman or craftsman needs to be able to do his work is light. Thus, there is no cosmic or scientific mystery behind the particular order of light being created before the creation of the sun, etc.
2. God saw that light was good, and God divided light from darkness.
3. God called light ‘day’, and darkness he called ‘night’. Evening came and morning came: the first day.
   Everything that God creates is good. There is no evil principle in creation or competing gods of light and darkness as in Babylonian and Persian religions.
4. God said, ‘Let there be a vault through the middle of the waters to divide the waters in two.’ And so it was.
5. God made the vault, and it divided the waters under the vault from the waters above the vault.
6. God called the vault ‘heaven’. Evening came and morning came: the second day.
   For the ancient Semites vault of the sky, or the firmament was a solid dome holding the upper waters in their place. Confer the previous post with the illustration. Rainwater was let through via apertures or floodgates.
7. God said, ‘Let the waters under heaven come together into a single mass, and let dry land appear.’ And so it was.
8. God called the dry land ‘earth’ and the mass of waters ‘seas’, and God saw that it was good.
9. God said, ‘Let the earth produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants, and fruit trees on earth, bearing fruit with their seed inside, each corresponding to its own species.’ And so it was.
10. The earth produced vegetation: the various kinds of seed-bearing plants and the fruit trees with seed inside, each corresponding to its own species. God saw that it was good.
11. Evening came and morning came: the third day.
    Earth or nature has procreative powers ("Let the earth produce vegetation) it has received from God. This is a counter-statement to those pagan religions that attribute procreation to nature itself without having received that power from God.
12. God said, 'Let there be lights in the vault of heaven to divide day from night, and let them indicate festivals, days and years.
13. Let them be lights in the vault of heaven to shine on the earth.’ And so it was.
    16.God made the two great lights: the greater light to govern the day, the smaller light to govern the night, and the stars.
14. God set them in the vault of heaven to shine on the earth,
15. to govern the day and the night and to divide light from darkness. God saw that it was good.
16. Evening came and morning came: the fourth day.
    This is an affirmation the God created the celestial bodies for man’s benefit. The sun and moon are not gods to be worshiped, as they are in neighboring pagan religions.
    …
17. God made wild animals in their own species, and cattle in theirs, and every creature that crawls along the earth in its own species. God saw that it was good.
18. God said, ‘Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground.’
19. God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.
20. God blessed them, saying to them, ‘Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven and all the living creatures that move on earth.’
21. God also said, 'Look, to you I give all the seed-bearing plants everywhere on the surface of the earth, and all the trees with seed-bearing fruit; this will be your food.
    Man is the only creature created in the image of God. This fact sets him apart and above the rest of the animal kingdom, over which he is given dominion.
    …
22. Thus heaven and earth were completed with all their array.
23. On the seventh day God had completed the work he had been doing. He rested on the seventh day after all the work he had been doing.
24. God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on that day he rested after all his work of creating.
    The seventh day rest is intended as a Divine instruction to keep holy the sabbath and do no work because God blessed that day and rested from creating.

where does the Bible say all this.I’ll bet you made all this up,like many others do - twinc

 

[PeterK]

There is no evil principle in creation or competing gods of light and darkness as in Babylonian and Persian religions.

Itinerant1,
Thank you again for the time invested in supplying such a thorough response on my behalf.
One can read books and the like, but hearing or reading someone’s explanation in their own words has it’s own unique didactic efficacy, because it was received first hand I guess.

Regarding the quote, on this point, when compared to other ancient creation accounts the objectivity of the Genesis narrative is striking.

PeterK

 

[Stephen5]

It is striking and the only reliable account of creation

Simple:

In the beginning [eons ago] … the infinite past … God created [Genesis 1:1] … absolute truth

And the earth was desolated by His judgment against satan’s rebellion [Genesis 1:2]

And the earth was reconditioned about 6,000 years ago for human habitation

The earth and universe are extremely old … look at the planets of our own solar system compared to a reconditioned earth

The fossil records under the earth speak of death and decay over an immeasurable time lapse

The Lord’s reconditioning acts of about 6,000 years ago can be understood in the Genesis account if rendered correctly … this action took only 6 literal 24 hour days just as the account is presented

New life forms … some not replaced … kind after kind … no evolution

 

[PeterK]

… And the earth was desolated by His judgment against satan’s rebellion. [Genesis 1:2] And the earth was reconditioned about 6,000 years ago for human habitation. The earth and universe are extremely old … compared to a reconditioned earth.
The Lord’s reconditioning acts of about 6,000 years ago can be understood in the Genesis account if rendered correctly. New life forms … some not replaced … kind after kind … no evolution

Stephen,
Well at least this can be called a compromise of sorts. Can’t say I’ve heard this one. The earth is both old and new, but no evolution. So if I understand correctly Gen 1.1 -2.3 narrate the reconditioning or rehab of the heavens and the earth because Satan’s rebellion destroyed the first earth.

Then does the Bible carry a description of the first creation?

And please, not too lengthy on the response, and I am not interested at the moment in any ‘end times’ explanations.

PeterK

 

[Stephen5]

“Then does the Bible carry a description of the first creation?”

Yes, but scant … the Lord has simply chosen not to give us much detail of the period between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 … same earth, but with reconditioning … the other planets of our solar system were not reconditioned and they still bear the scars of judgment and lack of life forms

Notice that when the Lord reconditioned the earth for human habitation satan immediately interacted for the purpose of attempting to corrupt the human race [Genesis 3:1-15]

Example scriptures [Genesis 1:1; Job 38: 1-7; Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:12-19 (addressed to satan behind the king of Tyre); Revelation 12:3-4]

The Lord will also do this type of renovation [but with fire] at the end of His coming millennial kingdom on the earth [Revelation 20;9-11; 21]

I have more details of this “subject” at my website contained under the title “The Big Picture”

 

[itinerant1]

It is striking and the only reliable account of creation

Simple:

In the beginning [eons ago] … the infinite past … God created [Genesis 1:1] … absolute truth

And the earth was desolated by His judgment against satan’s rebellion [Genesis 1:2]

Nothing at all appears even remotely reliable or accurate about your interpretation. Genesis 1:2 says nothing about Satan’s rebellion. Your statements are not so much biblical interpretation as pure fantasy having nothing to do with the meaning of the text itself

And the earth was reconditioned about 6,000 years ago for human habitation

The earth and universe are extremely old … look at the planets of our own solar system compared to a reconditioned earth

The fossil records under the earth speak of death and decay over an immeasurable time lapse

The Lord’s reconditioning acts of about 6,000 years ago can be understood in the Genesis account if rendered correctly … this action took only 6 literal 24 hour days just as the account is presented

Amazing! You went from God the Creator, to God the Desolator, and finally to God the Reconditioner. With such a rich fantasy life you might be good at writing science fiction novels. Or, just stick with your current literary genre, which appears to be that of theological fiction.

 

[itinerant1]

where does the Bible say all this.I’ll bet you made all this up,like many others do - twinc

LOL. That’s a good one!

 

[itinerant1]

The basic reason the Genesis Account of Origins is allegorized, fantasized, and any of the other "izes’ is because it disagrees with the wishful thinking(?) of those who seem to be followers of one: Charles Darwin–revised to neo-Darwinism. It probably goes back to Nimrod–maybe even to Cain, who tried to change the blood offering to an herb offering.

It matters not how much one spins this issue, they all cannot be right. The Scripture only is reliable.

If one cannot depend on the veracity of the Book of Genesis, how can one depend on the veracity of the Gospel? Maybe it is all allegory.

“Let God be found True and every man a liar”

Peace,

James Least

You don’t appear to be very familiar with or well-grounded in Scripture. Biblical writers often use figurative language, allegory being just one type.

 

[StAnastasia]

Here is an informative article entitled, Creationists Live in Small Cosmic Bubble

That’s strange. When I arrived there at the end of the universe, I found a very nice restaurant called “Milliways”!

 

[StAnastasia]

StAnastasia, You have paid me no small tribute in sharing my thoughts with your Dad! I can only imagine your kitchen table conversations growing up. He must be very proud of you. Certainly God has always planned to draw us close to himself. Thanks again for the note. It made my morning.PeterK

You’re welcome, PeterK! inner table conversations were quite interesting, although sometimes my siblings and I would grow weary with a five-minute, carefully reflected theological response to a question we had hoped would take only five seconds. I remember once asking about the relationship between God and time when I was ten, and then wishing I hadn’t, as I wanted to join my brothers and sister in play outdoors. My father (eighty-five) took a break from scholarship while my mother was dying of cancer a few years ago, but he is now back working on his third book, this one on the office of the episcopacy in the early church.

I like your concluding line about God planning to draw us close to himself. The great German theologian Karl Rahner said that it is no accident that the point of union in the Incarnation was the flesh. In assuming human flesh God took on the history of the cosmos, the quarks of the Big Bang, the stardust of exploding novas, the DNA of dinosaurs, the physiology of mammals, and the emerging mind of the primates.

StAnastasia

 

[itinerant1]

That’s strange. When I arrived there at the end of the universe, I found a very nice restaurant called “Milliways”!

“The Restaurant at the End of the Universe is one of the most extraordinary ventures in the entire history of catering. It is built on the fragmented ruins of an eventually ruined planet which is enclosed in a vast time bubble and projected forward in time to the precise moment of the End of the Universe…”

 

[StAnastasia]

“The Restaurant at the End of the Universe is one of the most extraordinary ventures in the entire history of catering. It is built on the fragmented ruins of an eventually ruined planet which is enclosed in a vast time bubble and projected forward in time to the precise moment of the End of the Universe…”

One Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster, on the rocks, please.

 

[DCNBILL]

“The Restaurant at the End of the Universe is one of the most extraordinary ventures in the entire history of catering. It is built on the fragmented ruins of an eventually ruined planet which is enclosed in a vast time bubble and projected forward in time to the precise moment of the End of the Universe…”

And they have great cheeseburgers!