To what degree are other denominations going to hell?

[spoiltvictorian]

Some friends host a Bible study at the local megachurch and I went to check out what they teach. One of the key themes of the study was that doctrine doesn’t matter so long as we all believe the basics (“90% cut-and-dry with the other 10% not being a big deal,” as one man said.) This sort of talk was repeated so often and in so many different ways I started to lose my head - I felt like Eustace and Jill in the smoke-filled room of the Witch. So, I stamped my foot in the fire by saying I baptized my children as infants and believe they became Christians at that point, and they would be forever unless they rejected Christ. There would never be a “decision” moment, ever. After some shock and bewilderment I was asked, among other things, if I would say that someone who chose not to be baptized but “was a Christian in every other way” would go to hell. I didn’t have a good answer and so I ask you all:

1. What do you do in these situations?
2. How would you answer the question posed to me?
3. Finally, how do you explain the benefits of right doctrine vs. “90% cut-and-dry with the other 10% not being a big deal?”

 

[AshleyBelle]

Welcome to CAF

First...it is not our place to judge the state of anyone's soul. Only God can be the judge of our hearts.

 All we can do is share the truth as we know it, and live that truth  in love with God's grace.  We may not even say "only Christians are going to heaven" because again, it is not our job to condemn anyone. Christ came to offer salvation to the whole world, not just "Christians."  Every human being has until the very last moment of their life, the free will and choice to choose truth and repentence over sin and rejection of God!

Did you ask then how they determined what the "essentials" of the faith are? The Bible does not say what parts of the truth are "essential" and which are "non essential."  We know that Jesus Christ is our savior, and it is only through Him that we may attain our salvation! Who are we to take parts of the truth He revealed to us through the apostles and deem them "non essential?"

You are right in telling them that when a person is baptized they "become" a Christian. This is because baptism is the sacrament by which God grants us the grace of salvation! Baptism is the sacrament which cleanses us from the stain of original sin and restores us to a state of grace with our Lord:)  But what happens when we choose to step OUTSIDE of that grace? How do we restore our relationship with Him?

Do we “pray a sinner’s pray” that we may be “born again?” Do we get re-baptized? Baptism is once and for all, there is never a need to “do it over.” And the Bible never teaches us that “accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and savior” gives you salvation on the spot which you may never loose.

In fact…our salvation is something we “work out with fear and trembling” as Paul teaches. It is an ongoing conversion, and transformation of Christ working from within is. Salvation is our GOAL, that because of God’s grace have faith working through love Our entire lives we must continue to say “yes” to Jesus over our sinful nature. So, when we fail, are we “lost” again?

No! This is why we believe in the sacrament of reconcilliation! We confess our sins and accept God’s forgiveness. And through this sacrament we are restored to the state of grace as we were at baptism

So…to summarize… we cannot say who is going to heaven or hell, we MUST leave the judging up to God. We believe that Christ gave us His church on earth to reveal the FULLNESS of the truth! If our seperated brothers and sisters carry some of that truth, they are still a part of the body of Christ, a part of the catholic church I believe that Jesus Christ is saving…and Jesus Christ is truth. Anyone who faithfully holds and follows truth as it is revealed in their life, holds a piece of CHRIST in their heart, and that even a small portion of Him may be saving I believe in the mercy of God! And I believe it is His desire that we all be joined with Him for eternity.

Ultimately, we all have the free will to choose truth, or to choose sin.

 

[ralphinal]

Please let me answer backwards.

Third, there are no minor doctrines. If there were, no one would leave over them. Each doctrine is important or else it would not be taught. Jesus had his single biggest loss of followers over a teaching that some non-Catholics deny: the Eucharist. Obviously, it was big enough to him to let them walk with no attept to stop them. The Holy Spirit would not lead us to something that was unimportant.

Second, that was not a bad answer. I might have tried to show some Bible verses to support it, but the what you said is spot on.

First, I have been there. I try to do what I can. Just like you.

Let’s assume that there are minor and major doctrine. Who determines which is which? How do we know what MUST be believed and what is optional? Jesus said that if we loved him, we would keep his commandments, but he never said which ones.

 

[1ke]

1. What do you do in these situations?

I attend Catholic bible studies. Therefore, “these situations” do not present themselves. “Non denominational” bible studies are anything but.

1. How would you answer the question posed to me?

Jesus stated that baptism is necessary for Salvation. Therefore, I obey his command.

We don’t know what happens to the unbaptized.

1. Finally, how do you explain the benefits of right doctrine vs. “90% cut-and-dry with the other 10% not being a big deal?”

There’s no such thin as partial truth. It’s true or it isn’t. And, everything pertaining to Salvation “matters.”

 

[Hisalone]

Some friends host a Bible study at the local megachurch and I went to check out what they teach. One of the key themes of the study was that doctrine doesn’t matter so long as we all believe the basics (“90% cut-and-dry with the other 10% not being a big deal,” as one man said.) This sort of talk was repeated so often and in so many different ways I started to lose my head - I felt like Eustace and Jill in the smoke-filled room of the Witch. So, I stamped my foot in the fire by saying I baptized my children as infants and believe they became Christians at that point, and they would be forever unless they rejected Christ. There would never be a “decision” moment, ever. After some shock and bewilderment I was asked, among other things, if I would say that someone who chose not to be baptized but “was a Christian in every other way” would go to hell. I didn’t have a good answer and so I ask you all:

1. What do you do in these situations?
2. How would you answer the question posed to me?
3. Finally, how do you explain the benefits of right doctrine vs. “90% cut-and-dry with the other 10% not being a big deal?”

If someone trusts in God and beleives God for there salvation loves God and loves their fellow beings then they will be saved.
If you dont trust God nor believe in Him for your salvation you will not be saved.

 

[Genesis315]

Christ proclaimed Baptism is necessary for salvation, however, we also acknowledge that if through exigent circumstances outside their control, someone does not receive baptism, their explicit or even implicit desire for it can suffice. Who has that desire? Only God really knows, which is why we follow His command to go forth to all nations Baptising them and teaching them all the things Christ taught the Apostles.

When someone tries to push you into either declaring them damned or saved, just say we cannot have salvation on our own terms, but rather on His as He has revealed and which have been handled down from the Apostles; I cannot judge or condemn–it is ultimately for God to search all hearts–I do not even judge myself–but I can and must have concern for the good of my soul and my neighbors based on God’s word.

 

[puzzleannie]

denominations don’t go to hell, individuals do, and that only through their own full free will choice at the moment of judgement immediately after death, when they see God face to face and are given full knowledge to make that choice. There is no one on earth, and the Catholic Church steadfastly refuses to claim this power, who can attest that any given person is in hell. So it follows no one on this forum can do so either.

To the extent that the sincere member of another denomination or non-Christian religion follows what they have been taught is the right and moral way to serve and obey God, that individual, despite their lack of full knowledge on earth, has a much better chance of attaining heaven than does a Catholic, properly educated in the faith, who claims publicly to hold, believe and obey all the Catholic Church teaches, yet refuses to follow Church teaching and put God’s law first in crucial life decisions (including but not limited to elections).

 

[Genesis315]

denominations don’t go to hell, individuals do, and that only through their own full free will choice at the moment of judgement immediately after death, when they see God face to face and are given full knowledge to make that choice.

Is this Catholic doctrine? I always thought that once you die that’s it. I think that is what the CCC means below:

**I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT **

1021 **Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.**592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597

592 Cf. 2 Tim 1:9-10.
593 Cf. Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23.
594 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274)DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439)DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563)DS 1820.
595 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334)DS 990.
596 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)DS 1002.
597 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.

 

[happilycatholic]

Some friends host a Bible study at the local megachurch and I went to check out what they teach. One of the key themes of the study was that doctrine doesn’t matter so long as we all believe the basics (“90% cut-and-dry with the other 10% not being a big deal,” as one man said.) This sort of talk was repeated so often and in so many different ways I started to lose my head - I felt like Eustace and Jill in the smoke-filled room of the Witch. So, I stamped my foot in the fire by saying I baptized my children as infants and believe they became Christians at that point, and they would be forever unless they rejected Christ. There would never be a “decision” moment, ever. After some shock and bewilderment I was asked, among other things, if I would say that someone who chose not to be baptized but “was a Christian in every other way” would go to hell. I didn’t have a good answer and so I ask you all:

1. What do you do in these situations?
2. How would you answer the question posed to me?
3. Finally, how do you explain the benefits of right doctrine vs. “90% cut-and-dry with the other 10% not being a big deal?”

The answer to all three questions is this:

“I am not God and it’s not my job to know who’s going to hell and who is not”.

 

[puzzleannie]

Is this Catholic doctrine? I always thought that once you die that’s it. I think that is what the CCC means below:

and what did I say that conflicts with the CCC teaching? You are judged when you die. You, the individual, not your denomination.

 

[redrosetea]

When did this person become God with the power to condemn? I would run fast from anyone spewing this kind of stuff

 

[4Squarebaby]

To the extent that the sincere member of another denomination or non-Christian religion follows what they have been taught is the right and moral way to serve and obey God, that individual, despite their lack of full knowledge on earth, has a much better chance of attaining heaven than does a Catholic, properly educated in the faith, who claims publicly to hold, believe and obey all the Catholic Church teaches, yet refuses to follow Church teaching and put God’s law first in crucial life decisions (including but not limited to elections).

So in your opinion my brother one of the Nation of Islams Minister’s Muhammeds has a better chance then the 54%?

 

[Genesis315]

and what did I say that conflicts with the CCC teaching? You are judged when you die. You, the individual, not your denomination.

Not that part, the part I underlined in your post. That after death when we see God, we get to make a final choice–whereas I read the CCC as saying the opportunity to make that choice is in this life only, when you die that’s it.

 

[Ruthie]

You’ve had a lot of good answers so far, SpoiltVictorian.

I was asked, among other things, if I would say that someone who chose not to be baptized but “was a Christian in every other way” would go to hell. I didn’t have a good answer and so I ask you all:

1. What do you do in these situations?

As a former poster said, I would reply that it is not my job to say who goes to hell; it is Jesus’ job. If they press you on it, say, “It’s not a cop-out; it is what my church teaches.”

1. How would you answer the question posed to me?

Here is the Catechism. Note the part I made purple.

***“Outside the Church there is no salvation” ***
*846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: *

*Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

• *847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: *

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

I like to charitably assume that the non-Catholic Christians I know do not know enough about Catholicism to reject it out of hand - and that, even if they do, there are circumstances that only Jesus knows about, that will see them saved.

1. Finally, how do you explain the benefits of right doctrine vs. “90% cut-and-dry with the other 10% not being a big deal?”

(Don’t tell your classmates about the following paragraph.) That’s a funny statement in both meanings of “funny.” A lot of the megachurches are loose on doctrine, so that they can remain “mega.” If they developed a firm doctrine, they’d get smaller and smaller as people disagreed with various points. That’s one of the problems with being Protestant!
OK, back to what to say…

How do they know *which *10% is not a big deal? Does this mean that they give more weight to some parts of Scripture than others?

(Most of the honest non-Catholic Christians I know have to say “yes” to that. But that is not the Catholic way.)

Does, for instance, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16 RSV) mean that Jesus doesn’t care if you are baptized? Is that also what Matt 28:19 means?

Here is an excellent article about reading Scripture. Since it is copyrighted, don’t hand out copies. In your case, I’d just make an outline of it and take it with me to refer to.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

God bless you,

Ruthie

 

[RobHom]

1. What do you do in these situations?

Honestly, I make sure that I don’t find myself in those situations.

1. How would you answer the question posed to me?

Were I asked that question…and I have been asked that in other circumstances, and my answer was: Only God knows that answer. (I do know the Church’s position )

1. Finally, how do you explain the benefits of right doctrine vs. “90% cut-and-dry with the other 10% not being a big deal?”

Hmmmm, sounds like “feel-good, have it your way BK” theology.
Not my style, and I thinks its “bogus”.

 

[justasking4]

AshleyBelle;4388475]Welcome to CAF

First...it is not our place to judge the state of anyone's soul. Only God can be the judge of our hearts.

 All we can do is share the truth as we know it, and live that truth  in love with God's grace.  We may not even say "only Christians are going to heaven" because again, it is not our job to condemn anyone. Christ came to offer salvation to the whole world, not just "Christians."  Every human being has until the very last moment of their life, the free will and choice to choose truth and repentence over sin and rejection of God!

Did you ask then how they determined what the "essentials" of the faith are? The Bible does not say what parts of the truth are "essential" and which are "non essential."  We know that Jesus Christ is our savior, and it is only through Him that we may attain our salvation! Who are we to take parts of the truth He revealed to us through the apostles and deem them "non essential?"

Somethings certainly more important than other things in Scripture. Paul I Cornthians 15:3-4 makes mention of what is of “first importance” where he writes–
3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;
4
that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures;

This is an essential doctrine. If a person does not believe this then they are not in Christ and are condemned no matter how many “Christian” things they do. What is not essential is where he wrote this from.

 

[Steadfast]

Spoilt,

Your profile says you’re LCMS, I don’t know if you’ve changed, but if you haven’t, I guess I’ll just commend you on attending this Bible study in the first place.

It’s always interesting to hear what other people think.

As for the idea that “doctrine doesn’t matter so long as we all believe the basics”, first of all, I’d want to make sure that they weren’t just muddying the time honored and essentially Lutheran belief in a distinction between essentials and adiaphora. This distinction is fundamentally assented to even by Catholics when, for example, they distinguish between de fide dogmas and “customs”. There are, of course differences between the views.

Another thing Catholics and Lutherans agree on is that no doctrine is “no big deal”. Or positively, any doctrine is a big deal. Adiaphora doesn’t mean insignificant.

If they were saying that there were doctrines that really didn’t matter then, well, they were wrong but it might have been best, as a guest, to have just smiled and left resolving not to return.

As for the question, I’d answer as any Lutheran or Catholic would, it is entirely possible to be saved without benefit of Baptism since it is the condition of the heart that speaks to grace, but that Baptism is the normative means by which God washes away sin and makes a person His own and we postpone it at our peril. Indeed, the very desire to put it off could well be a sign of dead faith.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Some friends host a Bible study at the local megachurch and I went to check out what they teach. One of the key themes of the study was that doctrine doesn’t matter so long as we all believe the basics (“90% cut-and-dry with the other 10% not being a big deal,” as one man said.) This sort of talk was repeated so often and in so many different ways I started to lose my head - I felt like Eustace and Jill in the smoke-filled room of the Witch. So, I stamped my foot in the fire by saying I baptized my children as infants and believe they became Christians at that point, and they would be forever unless they rejected Christ. There would never be a “decision” moment, ever.

Gabriel of 12
The topic your addressing is entrance into the kingdom of God, and yes, a decision is made at confirmation.

After some shock and bewilderment I was asked, among other things, if I would say that someone who chose not to be baptized but “was a Christian in every other way” would go to hell. I didn’t have a good answer and so I ask you all:

Gabriel of 12
**The question posed you has nothing to do with your statement of entrance into the kingdom of God. If a person chose not to be baptised and was aware of Jesus teaching from John 3:5 making it a condition for entering into heaven. That person will be kicked out of the Wedding party, because he/she does not have the wedding garment which is baptism. If the self proclaimed “christian” lived a life of christian virtue’s places himself at the mercy of his own, and risk’s his/her soul, when Jesus clearly reveals to humanity the conditions of entering heaven. I would not count on my own virtues to enter Heaven, when Jesus revealed to us, that it is through him.

The demons believe in God, and look what it got them, eternal hell. So faith alone is not going to cut it, to get to heaven. Dont fear man who can only kill the body, Fear God for he has authority over both the body and soul.**

1. What do you do in these situations?
2. How would you answer the question posed to me?
3. Finally, how do you explain the benefits of right doctrine vs. “90% cut-and-dry with the other 10% not being a big deal?”

Answer, apostolic sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture.

 

[racing59]

I find this post interesting, but not entirely truthful. I have had many Catholics tell me I am going to hell because I left the Roman Catholic Church. In fact in the 1960’s we were being taught in Catholic school there was no salvation outside the church. As far as quotes from the CCC, I was told only a priest can interpret the CCC,even though he does speak free from error.

 

[RobHom]

I find this post interesting, but not entirely truthful. I have had many Catholics tell me I am going to hell because I left the Roman Catholic Church.

That’s odd… I’ve never heard a Catholic tell that to anyone. I’ve been a Catholic for 58 years, and have never said that to anyone.

In fact in the 1960’s we were being taught in Catholic school there was no salvation outside the church.

That’s odd… I went to Parochial school in the 60’s…and I never heard that…not once, nor later in Catechism.

As far as quotes from the CCC, I was told only a priest can interpret the CCC,even though he does speak free from error.

"Balderdash X TWO!! The Catechism does not and never has required “interpretation” by a Priest. And “Priest’s” do not possess “infallibility”. Therefore, with the exception of the Pope speaking “ex cathedra”…no-one can state to speak free from error.

My “skepticism” meter is swinging into the RED…