To what degree does supernatural phenomenon affect your belief in your Church?

[gurneyhalleck1]

I appreciate everyone’s replies so far. Keep 'em coming.

 

[Hesychios]

little or none

my faith rests on Jesus Christ, the entire Word of God in whom Divine Revelation is complete and entire, as it is received, protected and handed on by the Catholic Church, His mystical Body on earth, which he founded.

This response comes closest to my own.

The biggest influence on me, and what brought me back into Christianity from an early mid-life lapse were the Gospel accounts (and also the Psalms of David and the Wisdom Literature of the Bible). So I think that my commitment comes from a more intellectual assent to the reality of Jesus Christ of the Gospels. Supernatural events and rumors of them have had little influence on me, and I think that it would be dangerous to base one’s faith on them.

In other words if I somehow became aware that the Shroud of Turin or the Holy Fire (to name just two out of very many) were fakes or mass delusions I would probably feel a bit disappointed but it wouldn’t affect my thinking very much.

Similarly I am also in agreement with the thought best expressed by Frank Sheed in modern times: that we must not allow the imagination hi-jack our thinking and influence our beliefs. This is in agreement with the desert Fathers, who give similar cautionary advice although they more or less typically attribute that to the activity of demons. Thus I don’t think things that inspire doctrinal speculation should be encouraged, it invites projecting and we may wind up worshiping a god of our own design, not the God of divine revelation.

To borrow a term used in constitutional law I would say I am a ‘strict-constructionist’ in a religious context.

 

[Della]

The Church is very well aware of the dangers of claimed visions/locutions/messages/miracles, etc. It’s why it’s set up a formal means of investigating them that starts with the bishop under whose jurisdiction any claimed miracles may have happened. Those who make such claims go through rigorous scrutiny and are not accepted at face value, as some people may think.

A very good book for lay people on the topic is Fr. Benedict Groeschel’s A Still Small Voice. I’ve read it and highly recommend it.

Also, although Catholics are not bound to believe them, they must assent to the Church’s authority to decide if they are “worthy of belief” or if nothing spiritual is happening/happened or is a fraud, and so on.

Although I too became a Catholic because I came to see that the Church was theologically correct and accepted the Church’s authority to decide matters of faith and morals, the apparitions of Lourdes attracted me, charmed me, and helped me see that Catholics do not worship Mary but honor her in a special way. This helped me accept the teachings of the Church in other areas. So, although such things aren’t the basis for anyone’s faith (or shouldn’t be) they do serve a purpose or God wouldn’t allow them and the Church would suppress them.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think the Catholic Church gets stereotyped in a POSITIVE way on television and movies in that whenever there is an exorcism, a vampire, or a supernatural dilemna, it’s so interesting that you never see a Baptist, Lutheran, or Presbyterian come on the scene! For all their negative portrayals as child-molestors and bums on TV, Catholic priests get a little love in the supernatural area…

I think the supernatural plays a part with some people. The St. Louis Exorcism case and some of the Fatima, Lourdes, and other events are proof, in some folks’ minds, that the Catholic Church does indeed have great credibility.

 

[Hesychios]

A very good book for lay people on the topic is Fr. Benedict Groeschel’s A Still Small Voice. I’ve read it and highly recommend it.

I agree. I have read it and recommended it several times here at CAF, usually on the ‘Traditional Catholic’ section.

Also, although Catholics are not bound to believe them, they must assent to the Church’s authority to decide if they are “worthy of belief” or if nothing spiritual is happening/happened or is a fraud, and so on.

What is worthy of belief is supposedly the doctrinal points expressed, and they are judged, not on the merits of the “apparition” as such, but are measured against what is already taught by the church.

In other words, you or I can say things that are “worthy of belief” too, if we stick strictly to the teachings in the catechism. That is all this “worthy of belief” actually means, that there is nothing expressed that is contrary to the faith as already defined. It is not an assessment of the genuineness of the apparition. So whether it is a supernatural apparition, a fraud or a delusion, the message is in conformity to the teaching of the church and “worthy”.

This happens to be how the majority of apparitions (many hundreds year by years) are culled out as not genuine. They are examined for accuracy in theology.

The church can prove an apparition “false” in this way, but it cannot prove an apparition “true”.

 

[Della]

I agree. I have read it and recommended it several times here at CAF, usually on the ‘Traditional Catholic’ section.

What is worthy of belief is supposedly the doctrinal points expressed, and they are judged, not on the merits of the “apparition” as such, but are measured against what is already taught by the church.

In other words, you or I can say things that are “worthy of belief” too, if we stick strictly to the teachings in the catechism. That is all this “worthy of belief” actually means, that there is nothing expressed that is contrary to the faith as already defined. It is not an assessment of the genuineness of the apparition. So whether it is a supernatural apparition, a fraud or a delusion, the message is in conformity to the teaching of the church and “worthy”.

This happens to be how the majority of apparitions (many hundreds year by years) are culled out as not genuine. They are examined for accuracy in theology.

The church can prove an apparition “false” in this way, but it cannot prove an apparition “true”.

Thank you for posting this further explanation. :tiphat: Hopefully, your info and mine will help people, Catholics and non-Catholics alike, to better understand how the Church deals with this issue.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

I think the Catholic Church gets stereotyped in a POSITIVE way on television and movies in that whenever there is an exorcism, a vampire, or a supernatural dilemna, it’s so interesting that you never see a Baptist, Lutheran, or Presbyterian come on the scene! For all their negative portrayals as child-molestors and bums on TV, Catholic priests get a little love in the supernatural area…

I think the supernatural plays a part with some people. The St. Louis Exorcism case and some of the Fatima, Lourdes, and other events are proof, in some folks’ minds, that the Catholic Church does indeed have great credibility.

I agree with you Gurney. As a kid, I thought it was really cool how Jason Miller really took it to Linda Blair. Who doesn’t love a good exorcism! I mean let’s face it from a theatrical standpoint, a Roman Catholic priest has it all going on, the dress, the purse, the bells and smells. In that respect, a Lutheran pastor is a little lack luster.

And if you over look the entire point of a papal mass and just watch it as a TV show, I mean it’s really cool. It’s like the Royal Wedding or the Glory of Easter at the Crystal Cathedral.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Different churches make various claims about supernatural events like Fatima, stigmata, exorcisms, Marian apparitions, divine encounters with Christ, bleeding Hosts, etc. Do you believe in these supernatural events and how much do they convict you to join or take seriously the churches in which these events are purported to occur? What sort of ecumenical appreciation do you take away from reading about these events and to what degree do you discount them, shrug them off, or accept them?

What part does the supernatural of the post-Biblical age play in your faith journey and choice of Church?

Gurney,

I think there are certain experiences that can definitely give credibility to a particular faith.

Many years ago, I visited St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. I was with my mother and sister. This was a stop on our one-day bus tour of Montreal.

My mother was a very devout Christian, brought up in a Southern Baptist Church. As we walked through the candlelit hall leading to Frère André’s tomb, my Mom stopped to light a candle. I was really surprised. I could tell something was going on with her. After we left, she said she thought there really was something special about Brother André.’ She experienced a strong presence of the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind, my Mom was in no way “charismatic.” She really couldn’t quite put the experience into words. The experience did have a positive effect on her view of the Catholic Church.

Here I am nearly 30 years later, learning about the communion of the Saints; and I have this memory of my Mom’s experience on the site of Catholic pilgrimage and worship. There is something powerful about that.

Frère André was beatified in 1982. I think our trip to Montreal was around 1983 or 1984. I read Frère André was to be canonized a saint in October of this year. Does anyone have an update on this?

Peace and Blessings, my brother,
Anna

 

[Della]

Gurney,

I think there are certain experiences that can definitely give credibility to a particular faith.

Many years ago, I visited St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. I was with my mother and sister. This was a stop on our one-day bus tour of Montreal.

My mother was a very devout Christian, brought up in a Southern Baptist Church. As we walked through the candlelit hall leading to Frère André’s tomb, my Mom stopped to light a candle. I was really surprised. I could tell something was going on with her. After we left, she said she thought there really was something special about Brother André.’ She experienced a strong presence of the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind, my Mom was in no way “charismatic.” She really couldn’t quite put the experience into words. The experience did have a positive effect on her view of the Catholic Church.

Here I am nearly 30 years later, learning about the communion of the Saints; and I have this memory of my Mom’s experience on the site of Catholic pilgrimage and worship. There is something powerful about that.

Frère André was beatified in 1982. I think our trip to Montreal was around 1983 or 1984. I read Frère André was to be canonized a saint in October of this year. Does anyone have an update on this?

Peace and Blessings, my brother,
Anna

I can relate to you and your mother’s experience. Before I was Catholic I’d visit Catholic churches and always felt the presence of God there. Little did I know then that it was the Real Presence in the tabernacle–that Jesus was really and truly present.

As to Br. Andre, he has indeed been canonized.

 

[Bluegoat]

THis type of thing in no way affects my decision to be a Christian. Which is not to say that I think such things are untrue.

The difficulty for me though is that many religions have credible instances of these kinds of supernatural happenings.

I am also a bit inclined to be careful because I am not always sure that such instances play out as well as I might expect in people’s lives. I have a number of friends that have some sort of supernatural experience, and I have seen that either fail to really impact them in the long term, or in some cases it seems to be related to an unhealthy emotionalism, and in a few cases I’ve thought it might really be a diabolical attack or psychological issue. And along the same lines, I find some instances like the “promises of Mary” and so forth very theologically and spiritually questionable.

I have recently been reading a book on stigmatics, and one thing that struck me even in those cases that were thought to be genuine is how many of the people seem to be emotionally rather unhealthy. Not all, but a substantial number.

So I am torn really - theoretically think that we are probably surrounded by the supernatural, but I am not always very impressed by the actual results of these events. There are some notable exceptions to this, and I am probably being really influenced by my own temperament.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I can relate to you and your mother’s experience. Before I was Catholic I’d visit Catholic churches and always felt the presence of God there. Little did I know then that it was the Real Presence in the tabernacle–that Jesus was really and truly present.

As to Br. Andre, he has indeed been canonized.

Della,

I appreciate the link. I’m glad to hear Br. André is now Saint André. I didn’t know he was the first “Holy Cross religious” to be canonized a saint. Very interesting link. Thanks so much.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

THis type of thing in no way affects my decision to be a Christian. Which is not to say that I think such things are untrue.

The difficulty for me though is that many religions have credible instances of these kinds of supernatural happenings.

I am also a bit inclined to be careful because I am not always sure that such instances play out as well as I might expect in people’s lives. I have a number of friends that have some sort of supernatural experience, and I have seen that either fail to really impact them in the long term, or in some cases it seems to be related to an unhealthy emotionalism, and in a few cases I’ve thought it might really be a diabolical attack or psychological issue. And along the same lines, I find some instances like the “promises of Mary” and so forth very theologically and spiritually questionable.

I have recently been reading a book on stigmatics, and one thing that struck me even in those cases that were thought to be genuine is how many of the people seem to be emotionally rather unhealthy. Not all, but a substantial number.

So I am torn really - theoretically think that we are probably surrounded by the supernatural, but I am not always very impressed by the actual results of these events. There are some notable exceptions to this, and I am probably being really influenced by my own temperament.

Bluegoat,

I understand and share your caution. I think there are events that are difficult to authenticate.

I have a few charismatic friends, and there have been times I’ve suspected they were confusing emotion with an encounter with the Holy Spirit. But, I’m really not in a position to judge.

I do think it is good that Catholics have a process for authentication.

Anna