To Zen or not ?

[reh12345]

I went to a jesuit university? That’s news to me. Sweet!

There is no sohistry. Christ was Jew through and through, his teachings and conduct were informed and backdropped by the Hebrew/Old Testament scriptures and culture. A basic understanding of the context of His Incarnation reveals a very Hebrew thinker. One who compares Hebraic thought with far Eastern will find nothing in common foundationally. Sure there are certain concepts of charity and conduct that can easily be compared (one can do this with most cultures and religions anyway - all truth is God’s truth). But foundationally Christ’s teaching begin and end with and external selfless focus. Love of God and out neighbor FIRST, as grateful recipients of gifts from God to us. The Eastern model is introspective, navel gazing that starts with man looking inwardly, fidning internal light as opposed to externally from God. It starts with emptiness and it’s goal is impersonal oblivion. The Hebrew mindet of Jesus is nearly the opposite. He teaches man to look to Him as the source of light. Not to look inside oneself. The differences could not be more stark. You will find a first century Jewish, and later Jewish follwers of the Way had little in common with far eastern thought.

Btw, which jesuit school did I go to and what was my degree in? Please tell me I have a Ph.D.!

Mel

i think so, the last time i heard phd stands for piled high and deep
try not to take yourself too seriously.

 

[reh12345]

So you support Buddhism because of what the Church did to Galileo? (does rc refer to you being Catholic?)
Then perhaps you need to learn more about the “truth”
about Galileo? Or am I reading you wrong on what you saying?
catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Issues/GalileoAffair.html

Naturally you know or perhaps are the font of truth as were the cardinals who condemned galileo. the bible, the font of all truth
says the sun stood still stood still.ergo galileo must be wrong.

the church has provide those who wish to use them many more powerful clubs than gaileo. the support of the franco fascists.
the support of the italian facsists, the failure to condemn the belgian attrocities in the congo or the hideous behavior of the salazar regime in angolla not to mention the intercourse between the nazis and the vatican.

the church is an organization of men who try to do the best they can in this world. the church frequently in error. this is a simple historical fact. Trying to say this isn’t so makes us all appear foolish.

 

[Pophead]

Dear CAF members,

Here is what Thomas Merton wrote, and I do find it most troubling…

‘It is quite possible for Zen to be ADAPTED AND USED TO CLEAR THE AIR OF ASCETIC IRRELEVANCIES and HELP US TO REGAIN A HEALTHY NATURAL BALANCE IN OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE SPIRITUAL LIFE.’
(From Zen and the Birds of Appetite - A Christian look at ZEN by Thomas Merton)

I spent some time reading ‘How Zen Found Me’ by Janet Abels. Her disclosure, though I am sure she is blind to the error of her ways or those who have beguiled her within the Roman Catholic Church. You will discover Priests and Fr. teaching Zen, Yoga, and any number of rituals. The rebuke here should be taken seriously…Scripture forbids us participating in the table of the Lord and the table of devils.

Perhaps heeding the words of Jesus who said, ‘wolves would come in amongst the sheep’. Be careful that you are not decieved by those who are still seeking outside of the one who it is said, ‘In Him dwelled the fullness of the Godhead bodily’.

Thomas Merton, continually referred to the Gospel as ‘The mystery of Christ’ - it is only hidden from the blind. The only word that might have granted him insight would have been ‘Spirit’ in place of mystery. There is not need to mix in Occult (mystery) with Christ and make a very dangerous mixture, akin to that which was used in the Faith Movement and now seems to be surfacing in this climate of TOLERANCE. I am FULLY aware that there is mercy of God to accomodate our foolishness and that the Gospel (Christ crucified), of which T. Merton seems to think it is no more than identification with Christ, not perceiving his glaring error, perhaps to self obsessed with the mystery of Zen, which he could not explain in written terms but which he says has common ground. How can Christ and Belial have common ground.

There is not Gospel contained in Zen other than a sort of word game and jangeling that does no more to inform the soul where eternal life is found than to insist that people SEE. Blindness can only be removed or the scales be lifted through what he rightly touches on, a personal encounter with the LIVING GOD, through Jesus Christ alone. The real mystery is not the Gospel which is easily enough explained if one has the time for reading 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 - but the real mystery is how he believes that Zen can bring the Spirit of God into the human heart. This cannot be granted without the complete work of Christ as explained in the Gospel. It is HIS work and we by coming to him and believe on him, something which Christ said, was only possible should the Father God actually bring one to Christ, those of whom he will never lose.

In conclusion, I cannot understand why there is any need to add to what has been accomplished long before any of us where born.

If the Gospel is not enough, if one feels a need to self sacrifice or glorify in the flesh about the identification with Christ, instead of glorying in what Christ has done and approaching the inner sanctum behind the curtain (which is now torn) where the High priests used to offer a sacrifice for sins for the people, by blood of bulls and goats, to receive instead NOW the mercy by the grace of God in the shed blood which was offered through the eternal Spirit of God in the heavenlies, and SO to be ‘cleansed of all ascetic irrelevancies + receive help to regain natural balance + and an understanding of the spiritual life’, then one is far outside the true truth of the Gospel, which we by our participation or self sacrifices can ADD nothing to the power of this, for this is the power of God unto salvation to ALL who believe, that Jesus Christ died for sinners…

Pophead.

 

[Bennie_P]

Naturally you know or perhaps are the font of truth as were the cardinals who condemned galileo. the bible, the font of all truth
says the sun stood still stood still.ergo galileo must be wrong.

the church has provide those who wish to use them many more powerful clubs than gaileo. the support of the franco fascists.
the support of the italian facsists, the failure to condemn the belgian attrocities in the congo or the hideous behavior of the salazar regime in angolla not to mention the intercourse between the nazis and the vatican.

the church is an organization of men who try to do the best they can in this world. the church frequently in error. this is a simple historical fact. Trying to say this isn’t so makes us all appear foolish.

I feel so sorry for you, you seem so full of anger,
May God grant you the peace you seek.

 

[Bennie_P]

Dear CAF members,

Here is what Thomas Merton wrote, and I do find it most troubling…

‘It is quite possible for Zen to be ADAPTED AND USED TO CLEAR THE AIR OF ASCETIC IRRELEVANCIES and HELP US TO REGAIN A HEALTHY NATURAL BALANCE IN OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE SPIRITUAL LIFE.’
(From Zen and the Birds of Appetite - A Christian look at ZEN by Thomas Merton)

I spent some time reading ‘How Zen Found Me’ by Janet Abels. Her disclosure, though I am sure she is blind to the error of her ways or those who have beguiled her within the Roman Catholic Church. You will discover Priests and Fr. teaching Zen, Yoga, and any number of rituals. The rebuke here should be taken seriously…Scripture forbids us participating in the table of the Lord and the table of devils.

Perhaps heeding the words of Jesus who said, ‘wolves would come in amongst the sheep’. Be careful that you are not decieved by those who are still seeking outside of the one who it is said, ‘In Him dwelled the fullness of the Godhead bodily’.

Thomas Merton, continually referred to the Gospel as ‘The mystery of Christ’ - it is only hidden from the blind. The only word that might have granted him insight would have been ‘Spirit’ in place of mystery. There is not need to mix in Occult (mystery) with Christ and make a very dangerous mixture, akin to that which was used in the Faith Movement and now seems to be surfacing in this climate of TOLERANCE. I am FULLY aware that there is mercy of God to accomodate our foolishness and that the Gospel (Christ crucified), of which T. Merton seems to think it is no more than identification with Christ, not perceiving his glaring error, perhaps to self obsessed with the mystery of Zen, which he could not explain in written terms but which he says has common ground. How can Christ and Belial have common ground.

There is not Gospel contained in Zen other than a sort of word game and jangeling that does no more to inform the soul where eternal life is found than to insist that people SEE. Blindness can only be removed or the scales be lifted through what he rightly touches on, a personal encounter with the LIVING GOD, through Jesus Christ alone. The real mystery is not the Gospel which is easily enough explained if one has the time for reading 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 - but the real mystery is how he believes that Zen can bring the Spirit of God into the human heart. This cannot be granted without the complete work of Christ as explained in the Gospel. It is HIS work and we by coming to him and believe on him, something which Christ said, was only possible should the Father God actually bring one to Christ, those of whom he will never lose.

In conclusion, I cannot understand why there is any need to add to what has been accomplished long before any of us where born.

If the Gospel is not enough, if one feels a need to self sacrifice or glorify in the flesh about the identification with Christ, instead of glorying in what Christ has done and approaching the inner sanctum behind the curtain (which is now torn) where the High priests used to offer a sacrifice for sins for the people, by blood of bulls and goats, to receive instead NOW the mercy by the grace of God in the shed blood which was offered through the eternal Spirit of God in the heavenlies, and SO to be ‘cleansed of all ascetic irrelevancies + receive help to regain natural balance + and an understanding of the spiritual life’, then one is far outside the true truth of the Gospel, which we by our participation or self sacrifices can ADD nothing to the power of this, for this is the power of God unto salvation to ALL who believe, that Jesus Christ died for sinners…

Pophead.

AMEN

 

[notself]

Here are monks from the Order of Saint Benedict exchanging ideas with Theravada monks on various topics relating to monastic life.
urbandharma.org/monksinwest.html

Here is an article about a Benedictine monk and Theravada Buddhist monk walking the Paul Bunyan Trail in Minnesota.
thecatholicspirit.com/main.asp?SectionID=37&SubSectionID=69&ArticleID=566

Here is an article by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops about Catholic/Buddhist dialogue between Catholic and Zen Buddhist monastics.
usccb.org/comm/archives/2003/03-076.shtml

Here is an article by the Archdiocese of Los Angeles about the ongoing Catholic/Buddhist dialogue. This goes into some detail of the inter-religious dialogue taking place and is an excellent comparison between Catholicism and Buddhism.
urbandharma.org/bcdialog/index.html

Here is an article titled “Catholic bishop presents Buddhist leader Vatican message calling for dialogue.”
catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=24057

 

[Contarini]

Not for Christians. God IS fullness and light - and Jesus proclaimed Himself (and His followers) to be the Light of the World and that the Light had nothing to do (nothing in common) with the darkness.

No, the “divine darkness” is a common theme in Christian mysticism. See St. Gregory of Nyssa’s Life of Moses. “Darkness” here is not talking about moral depravity (obviously!) but about God’s mysterious, transcendent being which we can never come close to understanding fully, because it is infinite.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Buddism is not only a religion but a sect of Hinduism, Pagan to the core.

No more than Christianity is a sect of Judaism–perhaps less so. Both traditions outgrew their origins.

Instead of throwing around labels ('religion," “sect,” “Pagan”), perhaps you could articulate just what in Zen Buddhism (the particular tradition that is the subject of this thread) is incompatible with Christianity. Then the defenders of Zen will have something concrete to address.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

the jews of italy found the church of little protection against the nazis

That is, to put it generously, a highly dubious claim, given how many Italian Jews were saved by the Church. Debating it would take us outside the frontiers of this thread, but you would serve your cause better if you avoided extremely controversial assertions such as this one.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

stop trying to reorient the question. if a buddist does not believe in a personal god does not mean that all buddist do not.
your implication that the dali lama speaks for anyone but himself is absurd. the is not the pope and he is not infalliable in matters of faith. by attempting to beg the question you are showing disrespect for everyone in the dicussion. if you don’t know what begging a question, find a logic text and look it up

Are you claiming that any form of Buddhism holds to a personal God who is the supreme Reality in the universe?

Edwin

 

[patrick457]

From what I know, Zen’s purpose is to achieve salvation through works (by Zazen for example). This stands in contrast with the Pure Land Sect that emphasizes faith in the Buddhas; i.e. chanting their name as few as ten times is enough to achieve a ticket into Paradise where people can strive for enlightenment unimpeded by earthly time. There are also a few ‘esoteric’ sects that offer a 'faster way’to enlightenment through mudras, mandalas, dharanis and other esoteric stuff.

Zen and the Pure Land Sect and of Mahayana Buddhism, which is more common in this part of the world.

 

[Bennie_P]

Here are monks from the Order of Saint Benedict exchanging ideas with Theravada monks on various topics relating to monastic life.
urbandharma.org/monksinwest.html

Here is an article about a Benedictine monk and Theravada Buddhist monk walking the Paul Bunyan Trail in Minnesota.
thecatholicspirit.com/main.asp?SectionID=37&SubSectionID=69&ArticleID=566

Here is an article by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops about Catholic/Buddhist dialogue between Catholic and Zen Buddhist monastics.
usccb.org/comm/archives/2003/03-076.shtml

Here is an article by the Archdiocese of Los Angeles about the ongoing Catholic/Buddhist dialogue. This goes into some detail of the inter-religious dialogue taking place and is an excellent comparison between Catholicism and Buddhism.
urbandharma.org/bcdialog/index.html

Here is an article titled “Catholic bishop presents Buddhist leader Vatican message calling for dialogue.”
catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=24057

Diologue is good, but blending of the religions is not. Some Catholics have taken the idea of diologue as a go ahead to practice Buddhism, which is nothing short of religious indifferentism . There are social and political projects which Catholics and Buddhist may work together on, but co-worship is not possible because of the differences on the concepts of God, Salvation, original sin, etc. Even meditation practices are not compatable, this where some Catholics have crossed the line and is causing great dissension within the Church. These reasons are reason enough for Catholics not to practice Zen. The confussion is blamed on the intolerence of the Church, but in reality it is becuase the two faith communities see God, the world, salvation and the after-life in a totally different light and reason. In the way of worship a Catholic cannot sycronize to the two faiths without giving up what makes one a Christian. That is the divinity of Jesus Christ just for starters.

 

[Contarini]

Dear CAF members,

Here is what Thomas Merton wrote, and I do find it most troubling…

‘It is quite possible for Zen to be ADAPTED AND USED TO CLEAR THE AIR OF ASCETIC IRRELEVANCIES and HELP US TO REGAIN A HEALTHY NATURAL BALANCE IN OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE SPIRITUAL LIFE.’
(From Zen and the Birds of Appetite - A Christian look at ZEN by Thomas Merton)

I spent some time reading ‘How Zen Found Me’ by Janet Abels. Her disclosure, though I am sure she is blind to the error of her ways or those who have beguiled her within the Roman Catholic Church. You will discover Priests and Fr. teaching Zen, Yoga, and any number of rituals. The rebuke here should be taken seriously…Scripture forbids us participating in the table of the Lord and the table of devils.

And how do you prove that the practice of Zen (let’s leave other Eastern practices for another thread, though I’m quite willing to defend certain kinds of yoga practice for Christians) is participating at the “table of devils”? What devils would these be?

Perhaps heeding the words of Jesus who said, ‘wolves would come in amongst the sheep’. Be careful that you are not decieved by those who are still seeking outside of the one who it is said, ‘In Him dwelled the fullness of the Godhead bodily’.

But of course, this is irrelevant until you show that the specific things we are talking about are examples of this.

Thomas Merton, continually referred to the Gospel as ‘The mystery of Christ’ -

That would be right out of the New Testament!

it is only hidden from the blind.

Of course it has been made known to us in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. But because God is infinite, the more we know the more we know that we do not know.

There is not need to mix in Occult (mystery) with Christ

Then why did Paul use the word “mystery” over and over?

There is not Gospel contained in Zen

I don’t think Christians go to Zen for the Gospel. They go to it to learn a certain kind of mental discipline and philosophical insight which helps them live out the Gospel. I am not deeply into Zen, but in preparing a lecture on it for my World Religions class last spring I was struck by how relevant Zen insights are to some of my own personal issues with the passage of time.

o The real mystery is not the Gospel which is easily enough explained if one has the time for reading 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 -

You really think you understand 1 Cor. 15:3-4? I really feel sorry for you, just as I do for my atheist friends. You are much better off than they are, because you are in touch with a real, living mystery–but like them you don’t seem comfortable with admitting that it really is a mystery.

In conclusion, I cannot understand why there is any need to add to what has been accomplished long before any of us where born.

By that logic, why were we born at all?

If the Gospel is not enough, if one feels a need to self sacrifice

But part of the Gospel is the call to self-sacrifice. Deny this and you are mutilating the Gospel to make it palatable to the modern world. (I’m actually not sure that self-sacrifice is part of Zen.)

or glorify in the flesh about the identification with Christ,

Why would anyone do that? Some Christians seem really confident that other Christians are “glorying in the flesh.” How would you know anything of the sort?

Identification with Christ is a gift of grace. And no, that is not a Zen concept!

Edwin

 

[Future_Prodigy]

i have a quick question: why is it always zen buddhism talked about? I know a lot of people believe zen to be compatible with their christian faith but never is any mention made of the other buddhist sects. Is it generally believed one can not be a catholic and a good theraveda buddhist? Basically why all the zen talk?

 

[Contarini]

i have a quick question: why is it always zen buddhism talked about? I know a lot of people believe zen to be compatible with their christian faith but never is any mention made of the other buddhist sects. Is it generally believed one can not be a catholic and a good theraveda buddhist? Basically why all the zen talk?

Partly because Zen is fashionable! But also because it’s the most purely philosophical of the Buddhist traditions (indeed, my understanding is that in practice it usually goes along with some kind of devotional Buddhism–presumably for Christians who follow Zen, devotion to Christ would take the place of devotion to Amida Buddha or whatever). Theravada is also deeply philosophical (there are plenty of devotional traditions involved, but those that are strictly Buddhist don’t, as I understand them, go beyond the honor a Catholic would pay to a saint, indeed perhaps not so far), but I think the philosophy is more clearly incompatible with Christianity, with its sharp denial of any kind of permanent soul, much less an eternal God. Arguably this is true of all kinds of Buddhism, but perhaps less so of Zen, both because it is more paradoxical and because Mahayana generally posits a “Buddha nature” in everything, which could perhaps be reconciled (a very big “perhaps”) with a traditional Christian understanding of existence as participation in the transcendent being of an ineffable God.

However, I think the bottom line is that Zen practices are appealing and seem helpful to many people, even if the underlying philosophy needs to be altered for Christian use. I see nothing wrong with taking parts of a tradition and leaving the rest–that is routine in the history of religion.

Edwin

 

[notself]

Diologue is good, but blending of the religions is not. Some Catholics have taken the idea of diologue as a go ahead to practice Buddhism, which is nothing short of religious indifferentism . There are social and political projects which Catholics and Buddhist may work together on, but co-worship is not possible because of the differences on the concepts of God, Salvation, original sin, etc. Even meditation practices are not compatable, this where some Catholics have crossed the line and is causing great dissension within the Church. These reasons are reason enough for Catholics not to practice Zen. The confussion is blamed on the intolerence of the Church, but in reality it is becuase the two faith communities see God, the world, salvation and the after-life in a totally different light and reason. In the way of worship a Catholic cannot sycronize to the two faiths without giving up what makes one a Christian. That is the divinity of Jesus Christ just for starters.

I agree totally. Trying to merge such different religious philosophies does not work.

What does seem to be working is the study of Buddhist forms of meditation by Catholic monastics. One form of Buddhist meditation, zazen if you are Zen, is focused on developing concentration. Concentration, when fully developed, leads one to contemplation. This is why Catholic monks are interested in Buddhist methods. They want to improve their contemplative form of meditation through better concentration.

One can study and practice the Buddhist methods of concentration while keeping totally separated from Buddhists beliefs.

This being said, Catholics need to be careful that they are firm in their faith and understand its teachings before entering into such “cross training” with Buddhists. Otherwise, confusion will set in.

 

[Contarini]

Diologue is good, but blending of the religions is not. Some Catholics have taken the idea of diologue as a go ahead to practice Buddhism, which is nothing short of religious indifferentism . .

But what do you mean by “practicing Buddhism”? If “practicing Buddhism” means practicing the virtues and mental disciplines recommended by Buddhism, what is “indifferentist” about that? When you speak of “co-worship,” what are you talking about?

I would agree that a Christian could not in good conscience call on Amida Buddha in hope of being reborn in the Pure Land. But we are not talking about that.

Edwin

 

[Bennie_P]

But what do you mean by “practicing Buddhism”? If “practicing Buddhism” means practicing the virtues and mental disciplines recommended by Buddhism, what is “indifferentist” about that? When you speak of “co-worship,” what are you talking about?

I would agree that a Christian could not in good conscience call on Amida Buddha in hope of being reborn in the Pure Land. But we are not talking about that.

Edwin

Sure you are. What virtues do you find in Buddhism that are appealing to you that you don’t find within Christianity and Christian spirituality? Are speaking of mental disciplines that will bring you to the same understanding of self/non-self/nirvana as the Buddhist is seeking? As to co-worpship, how can Christians and Buddhist worship together if they don’t have the same understanding or concept of God and his role in one’s salvation? Are you going to worship nature instead of God, self instead of God? creation instead of God?
The purpose of prayer of the two is totally different, though change will come to a Christian that is prayerful, Christian prayer is focused on God, His glory, His power, His will not on or in oneself. So what are you talking about?

 

[Future_Prodigy]

No my argument is Zen is a religion based on one finding salvation through oneself (or losing oneself), but salvation may only be provided by God and can only be accepted as a free gift not something earned nor deserved. And the conduit from which that gift (Grace) flows is from God manifested in the flesh as Jesus Christ, born of a virgin. God came to earth as one of us and he lived, died and rose from the dead. So all that believe in Him may have a personal relationship with him and one day also rise from the dead and live with Him as sons and daughters. Not for what we do but because of His love. Our simple trust and faith is all we have to offer, but only by His Grace will we be able to become Holy. The fullness of God’s love is found within the Church, which Christ founded – His love cannot be found neither within one’s self nor non-self.

This sounds almost protestant… how does the sacraments and the need of works fit into all of this? if only fiath is required

 

[Future_Prodigy]

Naturally you know or perhaps are the font of truth as were the cardinals who condemned galileo. the bible, the font of all truth
says the sun stood still stood still.ergo galileo must be wrong.

the church has provide those who wish to use them many more powerful clubs than gaileo. the support of the franco fascists.
the support of the italian facsists, the failure to condemn the belgian attrocities in the congo or the hideous behavior of the salazar regime in angolla not to mention the intercourse between the nazis and the vatican.

the church is an organization of men who try to do the best they can in this world. the church frequently in error. this is a simple historical fact. Trying to say this isn’t so makes us all appear foolish.

This is reassuring to hear from a rc… so the church is ONLY not in error concerning faith/morals then?